Is it just my imagination, or can this go against Excess Monsters? [Book of Moon]

[DARKPLANT RISING]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100722075042/yugioh/images/thumb/d/d6/BookofMoonPGD-EN-R.jpg/300px-BookofMoonPGD-EN-R.jpg[/img]

I'm too lazy to search, but I believe Excess Monsters got protection from "destruction" by removing the Overlaid monsters. Also, if Overlaid cards work the same way as with Equip Spell Cards, does that mean by any chance that this card can kill off the shields of Excess Monsters?

[Bringerofcake]

Best card in the game. Seriously, it has a near-infinite amount of utility, and is one of a few playable cards that makes DEF matter.

[Kaisu]

Isn't there a thing saying Exess monsters can only be Exceed or Special Summoned after being Exceed summoned?

If so, I'm pretty sure that can lock down Flip Summoning...

[I'm not sure... Better check.]

Anyways, this card is amazing. It's like the cardboard incarnation of Swiss Army Knives.

In a way.

[The Sleeping Dude]

maybe it might go against Excess monster if this will also Book of Eclipse which also works like a Mirror Force to the Overlaid Monsters

[Bringerofcake]

Oh, forgot to mention:

http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/51672-yu-gi-oh-qa/

[Sephiroth_The_Legend]

possibly one of the most versatile cards in the game right now...

not running this is just stupid.

[Mehmani]

A card with an infinite number of uses that can help out in any situation - arguably one of the most useful cards in existence.

[El-Rrey]

A card full of love until your opponent uses this!

[HaouJudai]

I don't think overlays are going to be treated as equipped cards - they will most likely exist in a separate game state - almost a 2nd gameboard in which only overlay or excess specific tech can be applied.

Book of Moon. How I hate this card. Oh the Dark Gaia I've lost due to this stupid card. What DOESN'T it do? Resets summoning conditions - universally chainable - protection - negation

and it's at 3.

sigh.

[Buttercup]

should be @0

[TheTurtleOnceCalledGod]

Its the best -1, what can I say that hasn't already been said...

[Father Wolf]

will most likely just put the excess monster face-down and the Overlayed cards (im not saying monsters because there is a possibility u could use spells/traps) will be destroyed like equip cards because they are no longer bound to the field by the excess ruling.

[HaouJudai]

I swear I'm necrobumping this once it turns out I'm right - I'm putting it on my calendar as a reminder - and if I'm wrong? Well, that never happens now does it?

[Mysty]

[quote name='Ser Warjacksworth' timestamp='1293027361' post='4873492']
should be @0
[/quote]

Saying a card should be at a certain position doesn't work unless you can give a legitimate reason.
To me, it's fine at 3. I personally prefer Enemy Controller in my Alien deck, but that's because I like monsters staying face-up. I run 3 Book of Moon is everything else.

As someone else stated, greatest -1 ever invented. Here's a list of everything I can think of it doing (tell me if I missed any):
• Saves your monster from Mirror Force, Lightning Vortex, or from destruction by battle by switching it to facedown DEF.
• Switches opponent's monster to DEF.
• Cancels Continuous effects.
[s]• Combos with Nobleman of Crossout[/s]
• Reuses flip effects and once per turn effects
• Stops your opponent from Synchroing out
• Gets rid of equip cards and counters on a monster
And now: • Supposedly severely damage Excess Monsters

@Ser: Most of those uses sound like either a 0 or -1 in card advantage to me. Its effect isn't devastating or amazing in card advantage, nor does it promote playing yugioh solitaire, so I don't see why this is banworthy or bad for the game. As I stated earlier, it's fine at 3.

[evilfusion]

The most abusable thng about this card is reusing Flip Effects, but that tends to be more of an argument against said Flip Effects than this, which is amazingly versatile, but balanced.

[HaouJudai]

I wouldn't call book of moon balanced imo - I feel it should be limited or at 0 - Tsukuyomi is still banned for crying out loud - Book combos with just about every card or card effect or game mechanic in the entire game - It's being ran at 3 as a deck staple.

Book used to be a -1 but when you book for shura and run over you're getting auto Armor Master or whatever which I sure would call a plus for field advantage - maybe not card advantage. Flamevell Dog - and now that new Jurrac monster which ss's directly after running over things can abuse the scrap out of it.

It wasn't that long ago that it actually was limited. If it continues to get main decked in 3's it will be hit again.

[evilfusion]

Tsukuyomi is different. It's a monster, and due to being a Spirit, it's infinitely reusable as long as it's not destroyed. Book of Moon can only be used once per card.

[Zauls]

[quote name='TheTurtleOnceCalledGod' timestamp='1293029294' post='4873554']
Its the best -1, what can I say that hasn't already been said...
[/quote]

Cold Wave.

OT: One of the best -1s in the game.

Actually OT: One of the best cards in the game. So versatile. I love attacking into Dark Armed with a Genex Undine or something and them not responding because they think I'm stupid then I book the Dark Armed. That is one of the many things I love about this card.

[Mysty]

[quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293046435' post='4874231']
I wouldn't call book of moon balanced imo - I feel it should be limited or at 0 - Tsukuyomi is still banned for crying out loud -
[/quote]

There is a huge fundamental difference between this and Tsukuyomi: Tsukuyomi is reusable and is therefore a 0 in card advantage when Book of Moon is used for a -1 or is a +1 in card advantage when BoM would be used for a 0. For example, if you activate Chaos sorcerer's ability, Tsukuyomi it, flip Chaos Sorcerer and remove another monster is a +2. Using Book of Moon for this purpose is a +1, or the Chaos Sorcerer's ability alone. I'm sure you can do this example, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Although Book of Moon can be used at more times, that doesn't make up for the reusability in Tsukuyomi's usage of the timings Tsukuyomi can pull off.
Hence, why Tsukuyomi is banned and Book of Moon is fine.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Evilfusion.

[quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293046435' post='4874231']
Book combos with just about every card or card effect or game mechanic in the entire game - It's being ran at 3 as a deck staple.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say it "combos" with a lot as much as helps reuse some effects quicker and messes with how well other cards and mechanics work.

Just because a card is a staple, doesn't mean it's banworthy. It could just be excellently designed in a game where excellent design rarely comes along and hence it gets used.

[quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293046435' post='4874231']
Book used to be a -1 but when you book for shura and run over you're getting auto Armor Master or whatever which I sure would call a plus for field advantage - maybe not card advantage. Flamevell Dog - and now that new Jurrac monster which ss's directly after running over things can abuse the scrap out of it.
[/quote]

It's still a conditional +0 when used in the ways you described since your attack needs to succeed and the opponent must be destroyed. Not banworthy, just helpful.

[quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293046435' post='4874231']
It wasn't that long ago that it actually was limited. If it continues to get main decked in 3's it will be hit again.
[/quote]

Last I checked, it's been completely unlimited since March 09, and it's been off being Limited since Mar 08. That means it's been through 12 sets since being Limited and 8 since being on the banlist, and nothing new so far has made Konami think about placing Book of Moon back on the list. I'm quite confident that the only reason it would be put on the list is if something new comes along that could absolutely abuse BoM or it stops a really big part of the game. To me, Excess monsters look too conditional to be really good unless the Excess monsters are made broken.

There is a big difference between "going to get hit" and "being banworthy/limitworthy." The former deals with Konami looking at the Japanese meta and what Konami feels is good for their profits; the latter refers to how powerful a card really is. If you can prove Konami feels that Book of Moon being used at 3 is bad for profits, then your case of "going to get hit" might hold water. However, I don't believe Konami has its eyes on Book of Moon at the moment and will only really put its eyes on it if Excess monsters become the next big thing and Book of Moon can completely hose Excess monsters.

[Great Unclean One: VK]

One of the greatest cards in the game to date.

So much uses, there's hardly a deck that won't find a use for this.

[HaouJudai]

[quote name='Mystery Guest' timestamp='1293049945' post='4874385']
There is a huge fundamental difference between this and Tsukuyomi: Tsukuyomi is reusable and is therefore a 0 in card advantage when Book of Moon is used for a -1 or is a +1 in card advantage when BoM would be used for a 0. For example, if you activate Chaos sorcerer's ability, Tsukuyomi it, flip Chaos Sorcerer and remove another monster is a +2. Using Book of Moon for this purpose is a +1, or the Chaos Sorcerer's ability alone. I'm sure you can do this example, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Although Book of Moon can be used at more times, that doesn't make up for the reusability in Tsukuyomi's usage of the timings Tsukuyomi can pull off.
Hence, why Tsukuyomi is banned and Book of Moon is fine.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Evilfusion.



I wouldn't say it "combos" with a lot as much as helps reuse some effects quicker and messes with how well other cards and mechanics work.

Just because a card is a staple, doesn't mean it's banworthy. It could just be excellently designed in a game where excellent design rarely comes along and hence it gets used.



It's still a conditional +0 when used in the ways you described since your attack needs to succeed and the opponent must be destroyed. Not banworthy, just helpful.



Last I checked, it's been completely unlimited since March 09, and it's been off being Limited since Mar 08. That means it's been through 12 sets since being Limited and 8 since being on the banlist, and nothing new so far has made Konami think about placing Book of Moon back on the list. I'm quite confident that the only reason it would be put on the list is if something new comes along that could absolutely abuse BoM or it stops a really big part of the game. To me, Excess monsters look too conditional to be really good unless the Excess monsters are made broken.

There is a big difference between "going to get hit" and "being banworthy/limitworthy." The former deals with Konami looking at the Japanese meta and what Konami feels is good for their profits; the latter refers to how powerful a card really is. If you can prove Konami feels that Book of Moon being used at 3 is bad for profits, then your case of "going to get hit" might hold water. However, I don't believe Konami has its eyes on Book of Moon at the moment and will only really put its eyes on it if Excess monsters become the next big thing and Book of Moon can completely hose Excess monsters.
[/quote]
Well presented. I think you are right. 2 things konami looks at are primarily the JP meta and profits. I disagree that it's just a good card design and should be at 3. I don't understand why you are calling book of moon conditional.

As for it being a staple - it's become a staple in the TCG at 3. (don't know about JP) If you don't think konami watches the decklist for multiples of a card being abused then you need to refer to Burial from a DD. No. I still feel this card creates an unfair advantage in the current metagame. I wouldn't feel that way if Shura and Flamevell Dog didnt' exist. Other than how those combo with this card I could almost agree.

[Mysty]

[quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293051390' post='4874469']
Well presented. I think you are right. 2 things konami looks at are primarily the JP meta and profits. I disagree that it's just a good card design and should be at 3. I don't understand why you are calling book of moon conditional.
[/quote]

I didn't call Book of Moon conditional, I called your +0 card advantage examples with Shura and Dog conditional since it involves Shura being able to successfully attack and destroy the other monster in battle, which, frankly, puts a lot of variables in the air.

[quote name='eviljudai' timestamp='1293051390' post='4874469']
As for it being a staple - it's become a staple in the TCG at 3. (don't know about JP) If you don't think konami watches the decklist for multiples of a card being abused then you need to refer to Burial from a DD. No. I still feel this card creates an unfair advantage in the current metagame. I wouldn't feel that way if Shura and Flamevell Dog didnt' exist. Other than how those combo with this card I could almost agree.
[/quote]

So, it's a staple. As I stated, being a staple doesn't mean a card is banworthy; it just means it could be an intelligently-designed card in a game where intelligent design is rare.

Comparing Burial from a D.D. and Book of Moon isn't a great example. Burial can put back Mezuki, Vayu, Plaguespreader, etc. Putting back 3 Vayu means you can get 3 more +1s out of it, turning Burial from a -1 to a +2. Book of Moon has very few, if any, combos that do anything like that.
I could go into 3/0 logic and explain how Konami is doing the banlist wrong, but that isn't quite the topic at hand, so I'll save both of us time and I'll skip that explanation unless you so wish to hear it.

How does this create an unfair advantage in the metagame? If Book of Moon were really a problem, it wouldn't be because of Flamvell Dog or Shura.
Stating that you wouldn't have a problem with Book of Moon if Shura and Flamvell Dog didn't exist makes it sound like you have more of a problem with Shura's and Dog's ability to summon other monsters. As I said, the combo of Book of Moon + Flamvell Dog/Shura is a +0 and rather conditional.

[DARKPLANT RISING]

Funny how no one cared about my observations in the title.

[evilfusion]

We dont know enough about Exceed Monsters to say anything about this card's use against them.

[Toffee.]

[quote name='TheTurtleOnceCalledGod' timestamp='1293029294' post='4873554']
Its the best -1, what can I say that hasn't already been said...
[/quote]
You -1 yourself to flip the Opponent's Tuner facedown to prevent them from -1ing for a Synchro.
Hilarious, I know.

I don't really consider this card a -1, because in most cases it either prevents something from happening, or saves one of your own monsters from something else.