I want a second active CCG, and am interested in hearing opinions on how to achieve this. No cards in this thread. Please contribute <3

[~Nightshade~]

Unless you have a boss coder, no practical alternative to YVD. Hint. Hint.

On TCG cards in a CCG: Completely ruins the CCG aspect for me. We make them to play with our own cards.

[-Lightray Daedalus-]

[quote name='Nexus Prophet-Evanm7' timestamp='1300574515' post='5083617']
Unless you have a boss coder, no practical alternative to YVD. Hint. Hint.

On TCG cards in a CCG: Completely ruins the CCG aspect for me. We make them to play with our own cards.
[/quote]

OCG cards in CCG will obviously be chosen to
1) Help Created Cards.
2) Be chosen so as they don't hinder the power and playability of Created Cards...

[~Nightshade~]

That did nothing to counter my point. It's a Created Card Game. It's meant to have your own cards; not Konami's. You can more easily make new cards that support already created ones then add TCG cards to the CCG. It is much less work for the designers and staff.

How can any TCG card possibly help a CCG card more then another CCG card can?

The only cards that can hinder the playability of the created cards are the actually good cards. There's no point in putting the useless cards in; you can make actually good created cards for the same purpose and more.

[-Griffin]

The main argument is that, sometimes, it seems good to add a card but it's almost an exact copy of a TCG card, so we might as well add the TCG version so that people are already used to its name, and don't have to remember two names for the same card.

[-DOOM]

[quote name='Nexus Prophet-Evanm7' timestamp='1300583724' post='5083902']
That did nothing to counter my point. It's a Created Card Game. It's meant to have your own cards; not Konami's. You can more easily make new cards that support already created ones then add TCG cards to the CCG. It is much less work for the designers and staff.

How can any TCG card possibly help a CCG card more then another CCG card can?

The only cards that can hinder the playability of the created cards are the actually good cards. There's no point in putting the useless cards in; you can make actually good created cards for the same purpose and more.
[/quote]

Useless cards in the TCG =/= useless cards in a CCG.

Just because a card is not used anymore, or less used, doesn't mean it is bad. Each CCG needs a card base to start with, TCG cards suit best, because 1) you know their rulings etc. 2) you know what in what decks you can play them 3) You know how to play with them 4) You know that they are not broken

[-Griffin]

Just going to say this, HP, #1 is wrong since they interact with different cards #2 is wrong since there will be different Decks, #3 is wrong since you're playing in a format where different things are probably valued, #4 is wrong since not all formats have the same things being broken - plenty of balanced TCG cards would have been broken in NGD.

I just don't think those points are really valid - the one I said earlier is the most valid I can think of.

[.Rai]

If we were to include TCG/OCG cards, it really wouldn't matter how underused they were since there probably wouldn't be anything similar that we have already created. Take Divine Wrath. In general, it isn't used in the competitive metagame but it may fare differently in a CCG. But the main problem is predicting how it will fare in the CCG. Adding a card that becomes a staple doesn't help the game at all but then adding a completely redundant card(s) would be just as bad. I would suggest some sort of testing period to see which TCG/OCG cards to add.

[-DOOM]

[i]#1 is wrong since they interact with different cards [/i]

You only have TCG cards at the start. How can their rulings be different just because they are used in a CCG?
[i]
#2 is wrong since there will be different Decks[/i]

There [b]will be[/b] different Decks, but Again, [b]at the start[/b] you will only have that TCG cards base. You know what decks you can build with them and how to play them. I'm not talking about a ~20ish number of staples, i thought of ~80 cards, with no staples (Staples in the TCG) but cards from various Tier 3 Decks.

[i]#3 is wrong since you're playing in a format where different things are probably valued
[/i]

Not at the beginning. Later, when you included Custom cards, things will change and TCG cards might become obsolete.

[i]#4 is wrong since not all formats have the same things being broken - plenty of balanced TCG cards would have been broken in NGD.[/i]

With the introduction of your card base, you laid the foundation for your CCG. You wouldn't add any broken cards to that base, of course. If a TCG card becomes broken later on, then because of bad card design.

[-Griffin]

...Where was the implication that it'd start TCG only? It'd probably start with less TCG than CCG.

[-DOOM]

[quote name='-Griffin' timestamp='1300642062' post='5085302']
...Where was the implication that it'd start TCG only? It'd probably start with less TCG than CCG.
[/quote]

"You" was not referred to you or your coming CCG, i always thought: you = one. So i was talking in general, I just stated my opinion the inclusion on TCG cards.

[-Griffin]

...Where did I imply I was talking about /me/ or a CCG /I'd/ start? - It's a fact that most CCGs start with less TCG than non-TCG, so your arguments are invalid for most CCGS =s

[~Nightshade~]

[quote name='Hp doom' timestamp='1300639505' post='5085232']
[i]#1 is wrong since they interact with different cards [/i]

You only have TCG cards at the start. How can their rulings be different just because they are used in a CCG?

[b]lolno. TCG cards will be interacting with different cards, causing different rulings to occur, causing the game to be more complex, causing the game to be unfriendly to new players.[/b]


[i]
#2 is wrong since there will be different Decks[/i]

There [b]will be[/b] different Decks, but Again, [b]at the start[/b] you will only have that TCG cards base. You know what decks you can build with them and how to play them. I'm not talking about a ~20ish number of staples, i thought of ~80 cards, with no staples (Staples in the TCG) but cards from various Tier 3 Decks.

[b]Wait, that's even more stupid. Once more, the point of a CCG is to innovate and create, not pull from TCG/OCG cards. Tier 3 in TCG =/= Tier 3 in CCG. More like Tier 1.[/b]


[i]#3 is wrong since you're playing in a format where different things are probably valued
[/i]

Not at the beginning. Later, when you included Custom cards, things will change and TCG cards might become obsolete.

[b]That is a VERY big "might". They probably will not. Also, all your arguements are relying on TCG cards going first. Who wants to Duel with a limited selection of TCG cards? Why not just play the TCG? First thing is probably going to be CCG cards.[/b]


[i]#4 is wrong since not all formats have the same things being broken - plenty of balanced TCG cards would have been broken in NGD.[/i]

With the introduction of your card base, you laid the foundation for your CCG. You wouldn't add any broken cards to that base, of course. If a TCG card becomes broken later on, then because of bad card design.

[b]See the above. It's easy to create an 80-card set; in a particular CCG, we get that in 1 or 2 days. If a TCG card becomes broken late on, then it's not because of bad card design on the creator's part; it's bad management on the owner's parts.

Simply put, if a TCG card [u]prohibits the existence[/u] of another CCG card, then the CCG card should take precedence of the TCG card; the TCG card should be deleted from existence. Why not just go away with these procedures and simply forget TCG cards all together? You lose nothing, besides some time and effort that IS NEEDED IN A CCG. If a leader is lazy and doesn't want to make more cards, then the CCG will fail. [/b]
[/b]
[/quote]



[i]If we were to include TCG/OCG cards, it really wouldn't matter how underused they were since there probably wouldn't be anything similar that we have already created. Take Divine Wrath. In general, it isn't used in the competitive metagame but it may fare differently in a CCG. But the main problem is predicting how it will fare in the CCG. Adding a card that becomes a staple doesn't help the game at all but then adding a completely redundant card(s) would be just as bad. I would suggest some sort of testing period to see which TCG/OCG cards to add.[/i]

Or how about just creating some non-staple generic cards; cards which don't really exist in the TCG?

And here's another thought:

Gene-Warped Warewolf. In the current TCG, it is only used by noobs and stuff like Brave Exodia.

In a budding CCG, Warewolf would completely decimate any other decks with its sheer beatstick potential. People will undoubtly create generic destruction cards for it, or some other way to deal with it. These would put the CCG into [b]Accelerated Growth[/b], or a situation where cards that are very overpowered are introduced to a CCG to counteract a current threat. This should not happen, because it either:

A) Forces the banlist in effect. When this happens, the original threat becomes prevelant once again. Ad infinitum.
Forces new anti-destruction cards to be made to stop these destruction cards. The original threat runs these and becomes powerful again. Ad infinitum.
C) B, but instead a new deck-type surfaces that can only be countered by destruction; more destruction is made and/or A happens, Tier 1 happens, CCG becomes broken.

[-Griffin]

Or D) - The CCG starts out with Decks on par with current Tier 3 Decks, not with most Decks being so terrible they lose to random.beatsticks.

[Aesirson]

I could help with this. Not good with finding pictures for cards, but could help creating ideas

[-DOOM]

#1 is wrong since they interact with different cards

You only have TCG cards at the start. How can their rulings be different just because they are used in a CCG?

lolno. TCG cards will be interacting with different cards, causing different rulings to occur, causing the game to be more complex, causing the game to be unfriendly to new players.
[b]
Look: I think it would be wise to start with a base of ~80 Tier3ish TCG cards. The rulings of the TCG cards among themselves WON'T CHANGE!!!! THEN, you start creating cards. AND THEN, when you have some custom cards, rulings will change, sure. [/b]


#2 is wrong since there will be different Decks

There will be different Decks, but Again, at the start you will only have that TCG cards base. You know what decks you can build with them and how to play them. I'm not talking about a ~20ish number of staples, i thought of ~80 cards, with no staples (Staples in the TCG) but cards from various Tier 3 Decks.

Wait, that's even more stupid. Once more, the point of a CCG is to innovate and create, not pull from TCG/OCG cards. Tier 3 in TCG =/= Tier 3 in CCG. More like Tier 1.

[b]If Tier 3 cards are the only cards, they will become Tier 1 cards of course.
Tier 3 cards, because they have already proven to be not broken in a well working card game.
[/b]


#3 is wrong since you're playing in a format where different things are probably valued


Not at the beginning. Later, when you included Custom cards, things will change and TCG cards might become obsolete.

That is a VERY big "might". They probably will not. Also, all your arguements are relying on TCG cards going first. Who wants to Duel with a limited selection of TCG cards? Why not just play the TCG? First thing is probably going to be CCG cards.

[b]They will beacuse you didn't chose the Tier1ish cards from the TCG, but the Tier3ish.
Yes because, first you have your card base. Then, before you start dueling, you make your first set. I'm pretty sure that faster, better, custom cards would soon replace often used TCG cards. Decks will probably look like this after the first set: 35 % TCG cards, 65 % CCG cards. After the 2nd set, 15 % TCG cards 85% CCG cards, etc.
BTW I like the existing cards, and I like creating support for them, that's why I'm here. Now you know my mentality. [/b]


#4 is wrong since not all formats have the same things being broken - plenty of balanced TCG cards would have been broken in NGD.

With the introduction of your card base, you laid the foundation for your CCG. You wouldn't add any broken cards to that base, of course. If a TCG card becomes broken later on, then because of bad card design.

See the above. It's easy to create an 80-card set; in a particular CCG, we get that in 1 or 2 days. If a TCG card becomes broken late on, then it's not because of bad card design on the creator's part; it's bad management on the owner's parts

[b]80 cards are too less IMO.
It is, because the TCG cards you have as base would be "bad", therefore, they only can become broken by [u]really[/u] bad card design.[/b]

Simply put, if a TCG card prohibits the existence of another CCG card, then the CCG card should take precedence of the TCG card; the TCG card should be deleted from existence. Why not just go away with these procedures and simply forget TCG cards all together? You lose nothing, besides some time and effort that IS NEEDED IN A CCG. If a leader is lazy and doesn't want to make more cards, then the CCG will fail.

[b]That's a good point.[/b]

[quote name='-Griffin' timestamp='1300642062' post='5085302']
...Where was the implication that it'd start TCG only? It'd probably start with less TCG than CCG.
[/quote]


[quote name='-Griffin' timestamp='1300642883' post='5085314']
...Where did I imply I was talking about /me/ or a CCG /I'd/ start? - It's a fact that most CCGs start with less TCG than non-TCG, so your arguments are invalid for most CCGS =s
[/quote]


I don't want to start a fight or something, I just said that I think it's good to start with a relative big number of TCG cards.

[-Griffin]

With all that in mind, how would people amend this?

[quote name='-Griffin' timestamp='1300574066' post='5083599']
Okay. Quick draft of a CCG 'plan', this isn't something I plan to do yet, it's just a draft to tack things on so we have a template of what we want in a CCG:

-Focus on holidays. During each summer, 2-3 'main sets' will be released, which will each have a specified angle, some things we specifically want, ect.

-Cards will be highly encouraged to have pictures. Quality is not an issue, but anything at all to represent them is good, so that you don't have to keep reading names and stuff.

-A banlist will be used. Cards can be errata'd if it would save a Deck by modding a little nuance, but generally the banlist is the way forward here.

-During the school term, 'extra-pack' style released will happen that are much smaller - 20 card max sorta stuff. This will stop people drastically falling behind or missing out on submitting to make the CCG 'more theirs' if they can't be active in term time. Duels are encouraged throughout term, but by no means required.

-New banlist at the start/finish of Summer and at Christmas. Emergency updates if really required.

-One 'main set' over each Christmas holiday.

-TCG will be in the initial set, after that, new TCG cards only, generally. This is so they fade out and it feels more 'custom', but so they can bolster the initial card pool.

-It will be YVD. There is no other practical solution, unfortunately.

-Duels will not be required, but if people cannot give backing for their card, relating to how duels in the game pan out, then that can be reason for rejection of the card, so it's a 'soft-requirement' in that if you haven't dueled for a week or so, you can still probably justify your cards. This won't be used zealously to discourage people who aren't great at justification, only if we think it's required due to card flooding or people who just 'don't get it', as a way to start a debate and get them thinking.
[/quote]

+Ideaget.

What would people think about having a simple, ultra-easy-to-edit wiki for a CCG that didn't involve loading more than one page? 'cus I have the stuff for that. Might help to organize things.

[~Nightshade~]

This is a matter of opinion, we can't really argue about TCG/OCG cards in a CCG. Honestly, I can say any CCG with TCG/OCG cards, I won't be joining. Loses the charm

[-Griffin]

Would you feel the same way if the TCG cards were carefully made to be Deck-specific, so that you would have no reason to use them, and they only served to give more viable Decks to other players?

[-DOOM]

[quote name='-Griffin' timestamp='1300650091' post='5085534']
With all that in mind, how would people amend this?



+Ideaget.

What would people think about having a simple, ultra-easy-to-edit wiki for a CCG that didn't involve loading more than one page? 'cus I have the stuff for that. Might help to organize things.
[/quote]


Would be great IMO.

[-Lightray Daedalus-]

I was thinking...we can like design The First Set to emule BIG 1st sets we had in Yugioh...
Legend of Blue Eyes
Duelist Genesis
Generation Force

By this I mean that we shall follow a Symplification of effects and mechanics (Avoid evyrthing archetypical frm the beggining, given they represent a different level of game state)...and focus on giving each part of the game its individual significance...

We will have time to get into more complex and more specific stuff...once we have a correct analysis of how the game need or wants to evolve...

And yes 1 of the first problems to solve is BEATSTICK.deks...

[~Nightshade~]

[quote name='-Griffin' timestamp='1300653612' post='5085902']
Would you feel the same way if the TCG cards were carefully made to be Deck-specific, so that you would have no reason to use them, and they only served to give more viable Decks to other players?
[/quote]


This honestly feels like you're trying to bribe me. The feeling is still there; just because I am not personally using them does not mean I will not encounter them and they have a negative impact on my perception.

[-Griffin]

I prefer 'compromise' to 'bribery'. Some people would want them, and if enough want them, it hardly seems fair to entirely remove them from the game, so I'm trying to find a middle ground that's acceptable by all parties.

[Icy]

[quote name='-Griffin' timestamp='1300653612' post='5085902']
Would you feel the same way if the TCG cards were carefully made to be Deck-specific, so that you would have no reason to use them, and they only served to give more viable Decks to other players?
[/quote]

That would work, and it would make the balancing/acceptance process that much simpler.

[.Rai]

[quote name='-Griffin' timestamp='1300653612' post='5085902']
Would you feel the same way if the TCG cards were carefully made to be Deck-specific, so that you would have no reason to use them, and they only served to give more viable Decks to other players?
[/quote]

I like this a lot. There's no point wasting ten or so cards in a set just to make custom cards that have the exact same effects as one in the TCG/OCG. Gradually adding TCG/OCG cards over each holiday to add more variety to the game without 1 or 2 decks dominating and to generally provide support for underused decks would help a lot.

On another note, to disagree with Dae's latest point, I think a slower metagame at first would discourage a lot of people to join. Either:

1) Add plenty of themes in an set. To help, a starting card-pool would help for an acceleration into the game. Then, give starter decklists, strategy guides etc. so people don't feel bombarded with the variety.

2) Add very little themes, with tests to make sure none of the little themes dominate. Preferably keep out of Tier 1 and make all Tier 2 or 3. Even matches add a different sense of variety. More updates in each holiday will add maybe 1 or 2 new themes that add to the variety.

[-Lightray Daedalus-]

Wait...I didnt say it has to be slow...heck this game never was slow to begin with it just that the current speed of the Game right now has surpased the Speed it began with

My point is...Don't put 10000000000 Archetypes in the first sets...