Mill - What is it even good for?

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

This here is a discussion of my favorite thing in the world - card mill. A lot of people use it for their decks, and a lot of attention has been given to it in these past couple of years. For those of you who don't know the definition of "Mill", it's pretty much sending cards from a deck to the Graveyard, usually from the top. It's a famous mechanic used by the [b]Lightsworns[/b] and Zombies, as well as used by the commonly seen [b]Card Trooper[/b]. Cards such as [b]Glow-Up Bulb[/b], [b]Plaguespreader Zombie[/b], [b]Treeborn Frog[/b], and [b]Fishborg Blaster[/b] are famous cards for putting in the grave through mill as well. There are decks which can be created based around milling a player's deck, whether their own or the opponents, due to the win condition of having your opponent not having cards in their deck during their Draw Phase.

It's well versed that milling is a good thing for the mill-ee (the one whose cards are being sent to the Graveyard), but this is not [i]always[/i] the case. I took liberty in looking over some of the recent "good" decklists in the US and Japan and counted the number of cards in a deck that could possibly be considered "good" to be in the Graveyard, whether so it can be revived or because of its own effect. These are the results:
[spoiler="# of cards useful in the grave"]11 cards
11 cards
14 cards (E-Heroes)
12 cards
11 cards
11 cards
24 cards (Lightsworns)
15 cards (Zombies)
16 cards (Elemental Heroes)
10 cards
13 cards
15 cards*
11 cards* (E-Heroes)
15 cards*
11 cards*
[u]11 cards*[/u]
Mean = ~13 cards
Median = 12
Mode = 11

Sources: Shriek (for most), YCM (for those with asterisks)[/spoiler][spoiler="Cards that can when be used in/sent/with the grave"]2
12 (Lightsworn)
5
2
10 (Doppelwarrior)
4
1
7
6
7
6
[u]3[/u]
Average = ~4.5[/spoiler]

So the norm is typically 11, 12, or 13 cards, with some oddballs thrown in and depending upon the deck. In other words, just a little over 1/4 of the cards sent to the Graveyard will be of any use there. The remainder are Spells, Traps, monsters that can't be Special Summoned, or monsters which aren't of any particular use other than in the hand or ready to be deployed instead of returned from the grave. Either way, a deck will typically run at least 20 spells and traps, meaning that at least half of the cards sent will be unusable.

Still, decks that can utilize cards efficiently in the graveyard are going to be able to utilize those scarce cards to a great degree. I'm not saying that milling your opponent is good by any stretch, only pointing out how the odds of milling useless cards is high and that a mill strategy is not completely lost in today's Meta. Especially with the lower number of Monsters we're seeing played.

Anyways, enough of my ranting. What is your take on self and opponent mill, what do opponent mill decks need to be considered "Meta-worthy", and how much of an impact do you think mill has?

[Canadian]

Empty Jar is the only deck that has a chance of decking out your opponent.

For self milling, I like decks that use 1 for 1 milling cards (Armaggedon Knight, Foolish Burial, Dark Grepher), like Vayu Turbo and the such. It seems a lot more consistant than having 3 Rykos, Charge, 2 Troopers, ect.. and hoping to god you get +1's off of the random mills.

[evilfusion]

Only a few decks or cards actually utilize a lot of cards they want in the Graveyard. And while Empty Jar is superb with a milling OTK engine, I'm fond of Zombie Mill myself, and Voltic Bicorn is fun like that.

Needle Worm, Morphing Jar, Voltic Bicorn and so on are the best opponent mill cards.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Mill really doesn't have too much going for it. They have a few good cards that could be used, such as Necro Face, Morphing Jar, and Needle Worm, but they don't have enough support to make a deck based on them usable... Other than Empty Jar.

[Canadian]

Necro Face was awesome when it was @3. I never got why they put it to 1, it wasn't [i]THAT[/i] abusable.

[~NOiSE~]

Milling does wonders for Scraps, at least in my experience.

Putting a few Lightsworns or Card troopers in a Scrap deck puts key cards in the graveyard for recovery with monsters like Scrap Chimera and Scrap Golem. Good stuff.

[wiithepeople]

I netdecked a WarmNeedleShield Deck that milled quite nicely...

[DARKPLANT RISING]

Milling is at times good, as in with DAD, JD, Rekindling, those etc... At other times it's worthless.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

[quote name='wiithepeople' timestamp='1300762511' post='5088770']
I netdecked a WarmNeedleShield Deck that milled quite nicely...
[/quote]
I made a deck sort of like that, and it always got to about 7 or less cards in the opponent's deck and then lost. It only won about 3 times. Still, was very fun to use.

[Eibon1307]

@ Canadian: From what I have heard, Necroface was put at 1 because people would spam it with Gold Sarc and D-Fissure/Macro. Gold Sarc for one, then use it's mill ability mill out some cards in hope for one of the others, mill some more with cards like LS, Morphing Jar, etc, get the other two in, mill more cards, then when they'd get the one they'd sarc'd, theyd summon, return all removed from play cards and then Necroface would be ungodly tough. I saw one duel at locals that did this and his Necroface came out to have somewhere around 7000+ ATK because he milled nearly all of his and his opponents deck and removed it from play. But again, thats what I heard.



On topic of milling: I don't like it too much unless it's being done for DD decks or ChaosSworn decks while there is a D-fissure/Macro on the field in order to pump cards like Helios, Gren Maju De Eiza, and Golden Homunculus. I try hard not to mill unless I need to use Foolish burial in order to get the card I need/want in the grave so I can eithe bring it to my hand, or Special it to the field.

[Father Wolf]

As for milling rly the only competitive decks that uses it to great result, is Plants and Flamvell. Which sucks, just shows u LS cant even do there own job better.

[quote name='Jester Head' timestamp='1300760944' post='5088693']
Milling does wonders for Scraps, at least in my experience.

Putting a few Lightsworns or Card troopers in a Scrap deck puts key cards in the graveyard for recovery with monsters like Scrap Chimera and Scrap Golem. Good stuff.
[/quote]

sadly the more static build is more consistent.

[Sephiroth_The_Legend]

[quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1300760345' post='5088674']
Necro Face was awesome when it was @3. I never got why they put it to 1, it wasn't [i]THAT[/i] abusable.
[/quote]

basically a 2 card OTK........................................

at 1 they figured it couldn't POSSIBLY do any harm..... should be at 2 imo...

Milling is not for all Decks.

Basically if your Deck needs the graveyard to make combos and big plays, then milling will inevitably speed it up.

If your deck doesn't require this stuff, then there's no reason to run mill of any sort.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

I can now update the list for recent TCG decks, if anyone would care for me to do so.

[Dr. Cakey]

Usually decks with larger numbers of monsters tend to mill. Mill lets you play PoA, which in turn lets you mill. The last thing you want is to dump 3 S/Ts from a bad Ryko. Six Sams, for example, are not going to mill, because most of their arsenal is dead in the Graveyard, particularly with only 1 Gateway (although a SelfMillSams that used multiple Double-Edged Sword Technique might be fun...). Dragunities don't [i]dare[/i] mill - their incredibly low monster count coupled with the risk of dumping a Dragon [s]Canyon[/s] [s]Ravine[/s] Canyon.

And, of course, the other key advantage of milling has been overlooked: the fewer cards in your deck, the more likely you are to pull something useful.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

That argument can't really be used unless you're using selective mill, since you could mill your good cards.

[AsterikcAde]

Milling in this game is [b][u]ALWAYS[/b][/u] good, it goes both ways for MTG though...yeah I play MTG more than I play YGO, that is why it seems like I don't know what I'm talking about when I comment here on TCG.

[ihop]

[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1300836690' post='5090313']
That argument can't really be used unless you're using selective mill, since you could mill your good cards.
[/quote]
like sakuretsu armor?

But yeah, Cakey pretty much summed it up.

[Flame Dragon]

Pop quiz, where did the term "mill" come from?
[spoiler=Answer]
[img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/10e/334.jpg[/img]
Also, the forum won't let me post magic cards.....wth?
[/spoiler]

Anyway, thanks to the huge amount of grave manipulation most decks can use milling the opponent will often backfire while milling your own cards is a welcomed thing.

IMO for mill to work against the opponent it will often need keep them from getting a use out of the cards they loss. So, RFP + Mill + ???? = Profit?


[quote name='AsterikcAde' timestamp='1300908849' post='5091891']
Milling in this game is [b][u]ALWAYS[/b][/u] good, it goes both ways for MTG though...yeah I play MTG more than I play YGO, that is why it seems like I don't know what I'm talking about when I comment here on TCG.
[/quote]
While I only really know a lot about recent magic sets from what I've seen milled playing MTG isn't as good since their isn't anywhere near as much grave manipulation in MTG. Well, side from Dredge.

[Dr. Cakey]

[quote name='AsterikcAde' timestamp='1300908849' post='5091891']
Milling in this game is [b][u]ALWAYS[/b][/u] good
[/quote]
Yeah, mill my Necrovalley/Dragon Ravine/something else that I can't think of right now so that I can recover it easi-oh.

Nonselective milling also increases your chances of pulling the correct card. For example, if I have, uh...30 cards in my deck and I flip Ryko, I have a 1/30 chance of sadfacing and milling the Trunade I want so I can overextend. As long as I don't mill it, my chances of topdecking it rise to 1/27 instead of 1/30. And if I do, I still have a 2/27 chance of pulling MST, instead of a 2/30 chance. Which, granted, isn't as good as the 3/30 chance I'd had before of pulling [i]some[/i] S/T destruction.

In other words, it reduces your chances of useless topdecks.

EDIT: This topic needs more, "F***ing mill, how does it work?"

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

[quote name='Dr. Cakey' timestamp='1300920002' post='5092289']
Nonselective milling also increases your chances of pulling the correct card. For example, if I have, uh...30 cards in my deck and I flip Ryko, I have a 1/30 chance of sadfacing and milling the Trunade I want so I can overextend. As long as I don't mill it, my chances of topdecking it rise to 1/27 instead of 1/30. And if I do, I still have a 2/27 chance of pulling MST, instead of a 2/30 chance. Which, granted, isn't as good as the 3/30 chance I'd had before of pulling [i]some[/i] S/T destruction.

In other words, it reduces your chances of useless topdecks.

EDIT: This topic needs more, "F***ing mill, how does it work?"
[/quote]
The odds of milling a specific card are low, but you are equally likely to draw the card. So you're going a 50/50 chance of either increasing your chances of drawing the card or sending it to the Graveyard. The chance of it being on top of the deck are equal to when you sent the card as when you milled. The odds don't change just because you milled, though if you DON'T mill it then your deck probability increases... And now I'm just saying the same thing again in different words.

If said card you need is still usable in the Graveyard, then milling it is extremely useful and doesn't have any inherent risk to it for that card.