Card Quality

[marcher boyz]

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1308947366' post='5307861']
What else could I read that as.[/quote]
this:
"question=/=problem"
was a response to this:
"Really, the question is why do bad cards exist and that article answers it. Really, your point is more about the bad rares since those are the cards people most want."
which was a response to this:
"The problem isn't that bad cards exist, it's that TCG players are forced to buy cards they don't want to get the cards they do want."

figure it out

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1308947366' post='5307861']
O, I see, you want all cards to be competitive. By definition that could never happened because even if every card was good their will always be cards that are better then other. If you limit to game to the 500 best cards I'd say maybe 60% will be played and that is REALLY pushing it. The fact it they aren't trying to make every card competitive because their are casual players too. Take the new Jace that just got spoiled for MTG. Most players are like "it sucks or is just ok" but when posted on the MTG facebook everyone is calling it broken. Two different types of players end up in two different responses.

And while they do know some cards aren't competitive they do make cards that they think will be but end up not getting used for one reason or another.[/quote]
no I just don't want ridiculously s*** cards to be printed in packs, I'm not against cards being printed just for the casual crowd

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1308947366' post='5307861']
Because they are human. Really while they can get normally good read on the future meta they only have about 20 people to bounce ideas off of. A good example in MTG is a card called Birthing Pod. The people that play test for the future meta kept trying to get the deck to work, but they never could. Come a recent event the pros showed up with working versions of the deck. [/quote]

[quote]Sure they may know that some aren't good but they will never get them all right.[/quote]
how is it human to make a terrible card and then go "doh well, we'll print it anyway"

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1308947366' post='5307861']
The two aren't comparable. You know what your getting in the starter and their are always some decent cards. If you tell ANYONE that you have an option of two packs, one with tourney level cards and one with a bunch of garbage no one would buy the other pack. [/quote]

fine it's a starter deck now, filled with magically terrible cards, my bad there

yugioh starters have terrible cards in them, casual players who WANT TO COZPLAY/ little timmy who wants to summon JUNK WARRIOR OMG would definitely buy a starter deck with this kind of stuff in them

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1308947366' post='5307861']
Do you really think that the 5 or so trash cards that show up a really that important. Really, you get 8 commons and even if one of them happens to be this who care since you still have 7 other potentially decent cards. Sure it won't be missed, I would never try arguing that, but is this really that a big a deal, especially when most people buy packs mostly with the rare in mind.[/quote]

wow there's a massive difference between mtg and yugioh then, because at least half of the cards you get in each pack are normally jank and the other half are pretty ok

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1308947366' post='5307861']
And again you bring up the competitive aspect. The vast majority of cards will never be competitive, but that should never stop them from making fun crazy cards. Really, they have whole articles on ways to make the "junk" rares in a set useable.[/quote]

I'm not saying that, read my posts before you reply to them.

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1308947366' post='5307861']
I know at the last MTG prerelease I pulled the 3 worse rares from the new set, but I've still see ways for them to be used in decks.[/quote]

then those aren't bad cards

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1308947366' post='5307861']
In short the two main formats in MTG are limited and constructed. Constructed takes cards you'v already pulled from packs to make a 60 card deck. Limited on the other hand uses cards from packs to make a 40 card deck from cards you either opened in packs or picked out from a series of packs 1 at a time. This totally creates to different play experiences since so any kind of creature nuke would need to be rare even if it isn't as good as most others. Another example is a card that would mill the opponent. With smaller decks a card that mills 10 while not good in constructed would be very strong in limited, so those end up at rare too. Also because of the way limited works most cards that aren't tourney level will often see some play here with only the Self Mummification cards remaining in the sideboard.

The design philosophy in MTG is different from yugioh. They don't like wordy card since that normally means they are complicated and they prefer more simple and strait forward at lower rarities. This goes back to a "less is more" type philosophy.

Again, if they had a bunch of complicated cards at common that would scare off new players. And of course the new plays need to see the complicated cards, that is why they get a rare in every pack. It's just giving them to many at one time might not have a positive result.

Here, these are rare Timmy cards.
[img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/nph/88.jpg[/img][img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/som/205.jpg[/img]
While it has little constructed value it is a bomb in limited. And the cards are hardly expensive, with them selling online for $1 and $.5 respectively. Really most MTG cards top off around $10. The current standard card pool has like 10 cards over $15 with the highest being a standard banned card at $60. The next highest is like $35.

And just so you can understand something about timmy.
[spoiler=Maro on Timmy]
The first question I always ask of a profile is: what does this profile want when they play Magic? Timmy wants to experience something. Timmy plays Magic because he enjoys the feeling he gets when he plays. What that feeling is will vary from Timmy to Timmy, but what all Timmies have in common is that they enjoy the visceral experience of playing. As you will see, Johnny and Spike have a destination in mind when they play. Timmy is in it for the journey.

One of the great myths about Timmy is that he is young and inexperienced. I think this comes from the fact that a non-Timmy (particularly a Spike) looking at a Timmy play reads his choices as those of inexperience. Why else would he play overcosted fatties or coin flipping cards or cards that, simply put, aren't that good? Because Spike misses the point. Timmy plays with cards that make him happy; cards that create cool moments; cards that make him laugh; cards that allow him to hang with his friends; cards that cause him to have fun. Winning and losing isn't even really the point (although winning is fun – Timmy gets that). For Timmy, the entire reason to play is having a good time.
[/spoiler]
[/quote]

wow so for standard my points are completely reasonable and oh look I've got a solution for constructed as well, maybe you could just combine the casual pack with the competitive pack

k

you give the new kids starter decks, then they move on to the fancy competitive packs, how is this bad

oh look it's something completely irrelevant

anyway, ITT: you agree that the cards made only for cosplayers/ timmy should be put into starter decks yay

[King of Nothing]

Well, marcher, let's look at this from a market standpoint.

If every card printed was, in fact, good, then the price of the good cards would plummet, since you'd get 9 every pack.

They can cover it up however they wish, but printing bad cards can make more money than a set of entirely good cards.

Also, Mass Driver says "BAM, IN YOUR FACE MARCHER, I WAS HORRIBLE AND THEN I WAS BAAAAAAANNNNNNNEEEEEEDDDDDD"

But that's not me, that's just Mass Driver

[marcher boyz]

[quote name='King of Nothing' timestamp='1308950573' post='5308077']
Well, marcher, let's look at this from a market standpoint.

If every card printed was, in fact, good, then the price of the good cards would plummet, since you'd get 9 every pack.

They can cover it up however they wish, but printing bad cards can make more money than a set of entirely good cards.

Also, Mass Driver says "BAM, IN YOUR FACE MARCHER, I WAS HORRIBLE AND THEN I WAS BAAAAAAANNNNNNNEEEEEEDDDDDD"

But that's not me, that's just Mass Driver
[/quote]
k

ITT: replacing the s*** commons with more copies of the good commons is a strange and magical concept that nobody can grasp

how will this loose them money, just how

mass driver was never horrible, people used to tech it in goat lock over cannon soldier

mass driver's a tosser

[King of Nothing]

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308951511' post='5308141']
k

ITT: replacing the s*** commons with more copies of the good commons is a strange and magical concept that nobody can grasp

how will this loose them money, just how

mass driver was never horrible, people used to tech it in goat lock over cannon soldier

mass driver's a tosser
[/quote]
Think about it this way.

You go to a cave. In that cave, there is one diamond. Just one. A diamond and a bunch of coal. That diamond is worth quite a bit.

Now you go to the cave. There are millions of diamonds. All of those diamonds are barely worth anything.

It's supply and demand.

[.Nu-13]

[quote name='King of Nothing' timestamp='1308952970' post='5308195']
Think about it this way.

You go to a cave. In that cave, there is one diamond. Just one. A diamond and a bunch of coal. That diamond is worth quite a bit.

Now you go to the cave. There are millions of diamonds. All of those diamonds are barely worth anything.

It's supply and demand.
[/quote]
Not in Minecraft

[Airride]

[quote name='Klavier Gavin' timestamp='1308953061' post='5308200']
Not in Minecraft
[/quote]
Reborn Tengu would be bad in Pokemon. Especially if It doesn't evolve.

Point?

[evilfusion]

Why not replace bad commons with more copies of decent commons? Because even though the cards are common, you may have to buy more packs to get them if you're after duplicates. And the bad commons may one day have use, or they have use, but they're outclassed by an outdated card that new players may not actually have or know about.

Yu-Gi-Oh strives to appeal to many audiences. The competitive player, the casual player, the veteran, and the newbie. Different cards may appeal to different people, especially if the better alternative isn't known/available.

Let's say I bought a pack and pulled a good common and 2 meh commons, and 5 junk commons, at least in my eyes. Well, I may want to buy another pack or two and try to get a duplicate of the first common. If instead of one or two of the junk commons, I pulled a second copy of the good common, I may not need to buy TWO packs, I may just need ONE. Oh look, I gave them less money because I got the cards I needed with minimal pack-buying.

Apply this to a larger scale of casual buyers (that is, people who dont buy booster boxes). The competitive/rich players may buy a box and get a copy or more of every common in the Set, plus a sizeable portion of the rares. They'll never use most of those cards, but they're good for collectors and trade fodder. Newer players may see a junk common, but want to get it anyway, and will trade a card THEY dont need for it.

I remember in my earlier days, there were some cards I wanted because I thought they were cool or useful, even if they're complete trash in competitive scenes. Of course "good" players were willing to drop it off on me for practically nothing. They didn't need it, I wasn't that easy to rip-off, and I wanted it.

[Flame Dragon]

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
no I just don't want ridiculously s*** cards to be printed in packs, I'm not against cards being printed just for the casual crowd
[/quote]
If they are that bad the casual crowd won't play them either.

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
how is it human to make a terrible card and then go "doh well, we'll print it anyway"
[/quote]
Because they don't think it is terrible. I know for MTG a decent number of the "bad" cards often end up in decks for limited and only a handful are really terrible.

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
fine it's a starter deck now, filled with magically terrible cards, my bad there

yugioh starters have terrible cards in them, casual players who WANT TO COZPLAY/ little timmy who wants to summon JUNK WARRIOR OMG would definitely buy a starter deck with this kind of stuff in them
[/quote]
Again, any product filled with bad cards simply won't sell well enough to be worth it. The Yugioh starters from memory have always had at least 1/4 of the deck be at least decent cards so even people that already play have some reason to buy it. So if is only bad cards the people that already play have little reason to buy it, and banking on all the little timmy
out there to make it worth it will likely bite them in the ass.

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
wow there's a massive difference between mtg and yugioh then, because at least half of the cards you get in each pack are normally jank and the other half are pretty ok
[/quote]
Again, the existence of limited gives most of the underwhelming cards reason to exist. But yea, R&D tries hard to spread the best cards out among rarities. Lightning Bolt is one of the best cards in the game and it's a common. The most recent set had loads of great uncommons.

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
then those aren't bad cards
[/quote]
To me they are. I don't want to jump through all the hoops need to get those cards to work. However their is a group of players that like that puzzle solving aspect and will try to figure out a deck that those cards work in. The simple fact is I wasn't the person those cards were made for so while they are bad cards for me to pull someone else will love them.

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
wow so for standard my points are completely reasonable and oh look I've got a solution for constructed as well, maybe you could just combine the casual pack with the competitive pack
[/quote]
You mean like they do already? Limited needs both kinds of cards in order to work as well as it does so you end up back where we started, with all the card back in one pack. If they then just printed the subset of good cards in a different pack then for it to be a good move for the company to make so few cards would be in it that it wouldn't really be worth it for consumers. You also run into the problem I listed above, the junk rares that some people like.

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
you give the new kids starter decks, then they move on to the fancy competitive packs, how is this bad
[/quote]
In some regards MTG is already doing this since they have Intro decks for every set with a mix of good and bad cards. It even comes with a bonus pack. It's adding a 3rd product that I feel things start to become an issue.

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
oh look it's something completely irrelevant
[/quote]
I was posting it for someone else as a point of reference.

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
anyway, ITT: you agree that the cards made only for cosplayers/ timmy should be put into starter decks yay
[/quote]
But those timmy cards would have use in limited use. And while I'm not a "timmy" player, much more of a spike, I like trying to make timmy cards work and it's unfair to make them only attainable in starter decks. The timmy cards I posted above are far from bad, just not good enough for standard decks.

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1308950320' post='5308051']
ITT: replacing the s*** commons with more copies of the good commons is a strange and magical concept that nobody can grasp
[/quote]
It's a fine thing to want but who's to say those replacements will be good enough for players like yourself. And again, pulling 3 or even 4 crap cards isn't that bad if you get 3 or 4 decent to good commons and a decent rare.

[marcher boyz]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1308954059' post='5308223']
Why not replace bad commons with more copies of decent commons? Because even though the cards are common, you may have to buy more packs to get them if you're after duplicates. And the bad commons may one day have use, or they have use, but they're outclassed by an outdated card that new players may not actually have or know about.

Yu-Gi-Oh strives to appeal to many audiences. The competitive player, the casual player, the veteran, and the newbie. Different cards may appeal to different people, especially if the better alternative isn't known/available.

Let's say I bought a pack and pulled a good common and 2 meh commons, and 5 junk commons, at least in my eyes. Well, I may want to buy another pack or two and try to get a duplicate of the first common. If instead of one or two of the junk commons, I pulled a second copy of the good common, I may not need to buy TWO packs, I may just need ONE. Oh look, I gave them less money because I got the cards I needed with minimal pack-buying.

Apply this to a larger scale of casual buyers (that is, people who dont buy booster boxes). The competitive/rich players may buy a box and get a copy or more of every common in the Set, plus a sizeable portion of the rares. They'll never use most of those cards, but they're good for collectors and trade fodder. Newer players may see a junk common, but want to get it anyway, and will trade a card THEY dont need for it.

I remember in my earlier days, there were some cards I wanted because I thought they were cool or useful, even if they're complete trash in competitive scenes. Of course "good" players were willing to drop it off on me for practically nothing. They didn't need it, I wasn't that easy to rip-off, and I wanted it.
[/quote]
yes there has never been an unwanted card in yugioh

note that by "an unwanted card" I mean something like a single self-mummification

I am suggesting that these unwanted cards aren't produced, or at least reduced in number from the thousands that exist in the world. This wouldn't bankrupt Konami.

[quote name='King of Nothing' timestamp='1308952970' post='5308195']
Think about it this way.

You go to a cave. In that cave, there is one diamond. Just one. A diamond and a bunch of coal. That diamond is worth quite a bit.

Now you go to the cave. There are millions of diamonds. All of those diamonds are barely worth anything.

It's supply and demand.
[/quote]
Think about it this way.

You go to a cave. In that cave, there is one diamond. Just one. A diamond, a pile of coal and a pile of s***. That diamond is worth quite a bit.

Now you go to the cave. In that cave, there is one diamond. Just one. A diamond and two piles of coal. That diamond is worth quite a bit.

lrn2analogy

[quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1308956154' post='5308275']
If they are that bad the casual crowd won't play them either.


Because they don't think it is terrible. I know for MTG a decent number of the "bad" cards often end up in decks for limited and only a handful are really terrible.


Again, any product filled with bad cards simply won't sell well enough to be worth it. The Yugioh starters from memory have always had at least 1/4 of the deck be at least decent cards so even people that already play have some reason to buy it. So if is only bad cards the people that already play have little reason to buy it, and banking on all the little timmy
out there to make it worth it will likely bite them in the ass.


Again, the existence of limited gives most of the underwhelming cards reason to exist. But yea, R&D tries hard to spread the best cards out among rarities. Lightning Bolt is one of the best cards in the game and it's a common. The most recent set had loads of great uncommons.


To me they are. I don't want to jump through all the hoops need to get those cards to work. However their is a group of players that like that puzzle solving aspect and will try to figure out a deck that those cards work in. The simple fact is I wasn't the person those cards were made for so while they are bad cards for me to pull someone else will love them.


You mean like they do already? Limited needs both kinds of cards in order to work as well as it does so you end up back where we started, with all the card back in one pack. If they then just printed the subset of good cards in a different pack then for it to be a good move for the company to make so few cards would be in it that it wouldn't really be worth it for consumers. You also run into the problem I listed above, the junk rares that some people like.


In some regards MTG is already doing this since they have Intro decks for every set with a mix of good and bad cards. It even comes with a bonus pack. It's adding a 3rd product that I feel things start to become an issue.


I was posting it for someone else as a point of reference.


But those timmy cards would have use in limited use. And while I'm not a "timmy" player, much more of a spike, I like trying to make timmy cards work and it's unfair to make them only attainable in starter decks. The timmy cards I posted above are far from bad, just not good enough for standard decks.


It's a fine thing to want but who's to say those replacements will be good enough for players like yourself. And again, pulling 3 or even 4 crap cards isn't that bad if you get 3 or 4 decent to good commons and a decent rare.
[/quote]
cool kids play extra veiler so they're like YUSEI LAWL

[quote]Sure they may know that some aren't good but they will never get them all right.[/quote]
did you even read this quote

k, as long as they don't put bad cards in the main set I don't care

k

can we just assume that when we talk about bad cards we talk about stuff like self-mummification/ extra veiler

90% of this isn't a coherent argument, constructed isn't nearly as important in most TCGs as standard

k

k

the majority of spikes wouldn't agree with you, but I'm not arguing against this as those cards still look slightly playable and so aren't designed just for the cosplay/ w/e crowd

IT'S A WASTE

[evilfusion]

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1309030620' post='5310078']
yes there has never been an unwanted card in yugioh

note that by "an unwanted card" I mean something like a single self-mummification

I am suggesting that these unwanted cards aren't produced, or at least reduced in number from the thousands that exist in the world. This wouldn't bankrupt Konami.

[b]I don't know exactly why card Set size went from like 100+ (LOB - ??) then went to 60 (RDS - FOTB?) and then went to 80, with the TCG later boosting it to 100 for OCG/TCG Exclusives. Because of the Set sizes, there's going to be pack filler, most of which are terribad. I suppose part of it is so they can put more gems in the packs, because I remember a sizeable part of the 60 card packs being meh or worse. It may have just been a dark time for card production until the GX packs came out after FET. Pack filler tends to either be anime-related cards or some random weird card like Self-Mummification.[/b]

Think about it this way.

You go to a cave. In that cave, there is one diamond. Just one. A diamond, a pile of coal and a pile of s***. That diamond is worth quite a bit.

Now you go to the cave. In that cave, there is one diamond. Just one. A diamond and two piles of coal. That diamond is worth quite a bit.

lrn2analogy

[b]Well, now I think the analogy had to do with supply in demand with the assumption that "bad" cards (represented by coal) is replaced by "good" cards (the diamonds). A windfal of diamonds makes each one less valuable because there's lots of them. Of course, that's why you'd hide the fact you have a large supply, so that buyers will pay full price, but in the end, inflation kicks in and knocks them down considerably.

But you're forgetting that not all cards are made to be bad. Some are just outclassed which makes them bad. But if you dont have the card that outclasses it, that card might do in a pinch.[/b]


cool kids play extra veiler so they're like YUSEI LAWL

[b]Jack played Extra Veiler.[/b]

k, as long as they don't put bad cards in the main set I don't care

[b]Where do you suggest they put them?[/b]

can we just assume that when we talk about bad cards we talk about stuff like self-mummification/ extra veiler

[b]Pack filler.[/b]

the majority of spikes wouldn't agree with you, but I'm not arguing against this as those cards still look slightly playable and so aren't designed just for the cosplay/ w/e crowd

IT'S A WASTE
[/quote]

It is. But with very, very few exceptions, most packs have not been complete trash and have held some very good or interesting cards. It's when a pack is nearly all garbage that we have a problem. In my eyes, SOI and CDIP had the WORST cardlists of every pack ever made.

The few stray "terribad" cards are excusable when the pack still has potential.

[marcher boyz]

thanks for making it difficult for me to quote you

[quote]I don't know exactly why card Set size went from like 100+ (LOB - ??) then went to 60 (RDS - FOTB?) and then went to 80, with the TCG later boosting it to 100 for OCG/TCG Exclusives. Because of the Set sizes, there's going to be pack filler, most of which are terribad. I suppose part of it is so they can put more gems in the packs, because I remember a sizeable part of the 60 card packs being meh or worse. It may have just been a dark time for card production until the GX packs came out after FET. Pack filler tends to either be anime-related cards or some random weird card like Self-Mummification.[/quote]
The initial sets were made from 2 OCG sets to catch the TCG up to the OCG.

[quote]Because of the Set sizes, there's going to be pack filler, most of which are terribad.[/quote]
why do the sets have to be large

[quote]Well, now I think the analogy had to do with supply in demand with the assumption that "bad" cards (represented by coal) is replaced by "good" cards (the diamonds). A windfal of diamonds makes each one less valuable because there's lots of them. Of course, that's why you'd hide the fact you have a large supply, so that buyers will pay full price, but in the end, inflation kicks in and knocks them down considerably.

But you're forgetting that not all cards are made to be bad. Some are just outclassed which makes them bad. But if you dont have the card that outclasses it, that card might do in a pinch.[/quote]
yes konami makes most of its money from people buying the packs for good commons, what was I thinking my idea would obviously bankrupt them

for the last time I'm only talking about the "set filler" cards being taken out

[quote]Jack played Extra Veiler.[/quote]
idc

[quote]Where do you suggest they put them?[/quote]
oh look someone who cba to read all the posts in a topic before commenting

[quote]Pack filler.[/quote]
k

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1309033326' post='5310238']
It is. But with very, very few exceptions, most packs have not been complete trash and have held some very good or interesting cards. It's when a pack is nearly all garbage that we have a problem. In my eyes, SOI and CDIP had the WORST cardlists of every pack ever made.

The few stray "terribad" cards are excusable when the pack still has potential.
[/quote]
a small problem is still a problem

why

[King of Nothing]

[quote=marcher boyz]yes konami makes most of its money from people buying the packs for good commons, what was I thinking my idea would obviously bankrupt them

for the last time I'm only talking about the "set filler" cards being taken out

[/quote]

Yeah, it would make Konami lose money. Konami is in this to make money. Konami, at no point in time, will ever care about the customer in a way more than "How can we get more money from them?" and their answer was to print cards that Timmys, Johnnys and Spikes would all want to use. That's how a card game based on a show based on a card game based on a show based on Egypt functions.

lrn2market

[evilfusion]

My pleasure.

1) I didn't know that. Interesting.

2) I don't know. If I had to guess, I'd say sets are large so they can put more cards in it, and change the ridiculous rarity ratio from how it was during the 60 card pack era...oh wait, the OCG makes the pack size...I have no clue. Consistency? Make collections more difficult to acquire? The more cards in the pack, the more cards can be made rare or higher, meaning more packs have to be bought to collect them all?

3) Well, I don't know why Set filler is made. The article indicated that good cards are spread throughout several packs of the expansion (for example, Effect Veiler's anime debut was during the Infernity arc, but it was put in DREV instead of TSHD), so I suppose filler is there to tide over the numbers to 80, while spreading the gems or highly-desired cards among multiple packs.

Also, it was already mentioned with examples that some cards that are bad become good later, or are meant for fun, or are meant for a different audience. Gift Card comes to mind. Giving your opponent 3000 LP seems ridiculously stupid, but with Bad Reaction or Nurse, you inflict 3000 damage. Maybe that was the intention of the card, but it seems to be a bad card at a glance, but is epic in the right deck. Pack filler could be the same. And some pack filler are anime cards, that may have a fan for the card, even if it's underwhelming.

4) Okay, then.

5) Not sure at the moment what "cba" stands for, but the gist is that I don't read the posts. I did read the topic posts, albeit sporadically, so I don't remember everything every person has said, since this debate had been going on for a while. It's already been mentioned that bad cards have to exist somewhere, and strength is relative. If you don't want "bad cards" in the main set, where should bad cards exist? You can't just say "no bad cards should exist" because when you sell a product to multiple audiences, you need to please someone. I find rage is best kept for when an entire Set sucks, rather than the few useless cards that seem to have no purpose whatsoever. And as the article mentioned, a weak player may put in a card that isn't very good, and lose duels because of it, making card choice a matter of skill or comprehension. This applies to Yu-gi-oh as well.

And some bad cards are interesting tech choices. I saw one (extremely amateur) player use Elphin the Raven in Blackwings. Had he/she used its effect correctly, I'd have lost that duel. It may have been luck, but the card had some potential, even if most good Blackwing decks wil dismiss it. And I in no way think Elphin should be used in Blackwings. But it COULD be used.

Last) I don't know exactly why mediocre or bad cards exist. Some could say they have to, to keep the game evolving at a steady pace. If they released one pack in the future with nothing but good cards, that pack will sell majorly, and unless all future packs have similarly good and powerful cards, no one will buy the packs and the game will be stuck until the good cards are banned or limited, or awesome new archetype/support is released. Now, you may be saying that you're not asking for ONLY good cards in a pack, but you want the removal of the really BAD cards. Well, suppose they do that.

Relatively, the mediocre cards will be the new "bad" cards, and be disliked for that. Then there may be an outcry for those to be removed/improved, and then the "good" cards will pale in the face of the "gem" cards, and so on. Bad is still subjective, and implies the R+D should be looking at every card and saying "this has no chance of seeing play, let's not release it", and in fact the card was a hidden gem, one whose potential would not have been found for a format or two.

Yes, there are horrible, worthless cards in the game. Every card game has them. But sometimes it can be a key component in a powerful deck. Butterfly Dagger - Elma is a horrible card. But it comboes for one of the most broken comboes in the game. Even the ones who actually are horrible cards may not have been seen as such when developed. It's not easy to develop good, balanced cards that are ALL playable. On this very site, we see innumerable examples of stupidly broken cards, or stupidly stupid cards. It's not that easy, and R+D has to do this for a constantly evolving game, by developing Sets that appeal to a broad audience, including veteran players and newbies. They have to try to make sure cards don't break the game, but aren't so weak to be dismissed, yet aren't so blatantly good that even the worst player can grab one without thought.

[marcher boyz]

[quote name='King of Nothing' timestamp='1309036712' post='5310349']
Yeah, it would make Konami lose money.[/quote]
except it wouldn't as nobody buys packs just for commons

[quote name='King of Nothing' timestamp='1309036712' post='5310349']
Konami is in this to make money. Konami, at no point in time, will ever care about the customer in a way more than "How can we get more money from them?" and their answer was to print cards that Timmys, Johnnys and Spikes would all want to use.[/quote]
where did I say that I don't agree with this

[quote name='King of Nothing' timestamp='1309036712' post='5310349']
That's how a card game based on a show based on a card game based on a show based on Egypt functions.

lrn2market
[/quote]
no s***

lrn2read

[King of Nothing]

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1309037327' post='5310372']
except it wouldn't as nobody buys packs just for commons


where did I say that I don't agree with this


no s***

lrn2read
[/quote]
So, if nobody buys a pack for the commons, no change regaurding the commons needs to be done.

[marcher boyz]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1309037293' post='5310370']
My pleasure.

1) I didn't know that. Interesting.

2) I don't know. If I had to guess, I'd say sets are large so they can put more cards in it, and change the ridiculous rarity ratio from how it was during the 60 card pack era...oh wait, the OCG makes the pack size...I have no clue. Consistency? Make collections more difficult to acquire? The more cards in the pack, the more cards can be made rare or higher, meaning more packs have to be bought to collect them all?

3) Well, I don't know why Set filler is made. The article indicated that good cards are spread throughout several packs of the expansion (for example, Effect Veiler's anime debut was during the Infernity arc, but it was put in DREV instead of TSHD), so I suppose filler is there to tide over the numbers to 80, while spreading the gems or highly-desired cards among multiple packs.

Also, it was already mentioned with examples that some cards that are bad become good later, or are meant for fun, or are meant for a different audience. Gift Card comes to mind. Giving your opponent 3000 LP seems ridiculously stupid, but with Bad Reaction or Nurse, you inflict 3000 damage. Maybe that was the intention of the card, but it seems to be a bad card at a glance, but is epic in the right deck. Pack filler could be the same. And some pack filler are anime cards, that may have a fan for the card, even if it's underwhelming.

4) Okay, then.

5) Not sure at the moment what "cba" stands for, but the gist is that I don't read the posts. I did read the topic posts, albeit sporadically, so I don't remember everything every person has said, since this debate had been going on for a while. It's already been mentioned that bad cards have to exist somewhere, and strength is relative. If you don't want "bad cards" in the main set, where should bad cards exist? You can't just say "no bad cards should exist" because when you sell a product to multiple audiences, you need to please someone. I find rage is best kept for when an entire Set sucks, rather than the few useless cards that seem to have no purpose whatsoever. And as the article mentioned, a weak player may put in a card that isn't very good, and lose duels because of it, making card choice a matter of skill or comprehension. This applies to Yu-gi-oh as well.

And some bad cards are interesting tech choices. I saw one (extremely amateur) player use Elphin the Raven in Blackwings. Had he/she used its effect correctly, I'd have lost that duel. It may have been luck, but the card had some potential, even if most good Blackwing decks wil dismiss it. And I in no way think Elphin should be used in Blackwings. But it COULD be used.

Last) I don't know exactly why mediocre or bad cards exist. Some could say they have to, to keep the game evolving at a steady pace. If they released one pack in the future with nothing but good cards, that pack will sell majorly, and unless all future packs have similarly good and powerful cards, no one will buy the packs and the game will be stuck until the good cards are banned or limited, or awesome new archetype/support is released. Now, you may be saying that you're not asking for ONLY good cards in a pack, but you want the removal of the really BAD cards. Well, suppose they do that.

Relatively, the mediocre cards will be the new "bad" cards, and be disliked for that. Then there may be an outcry for those to be removed/improved, and then the "good" cards will pale in the face of the "gem" cards, and so on. Bad is still subjective, and implies the R+D should be looking at every card and saying "this has no chance of seeing play, let's not release it", and in fact the card was a hidden gem, one whose potential would not have been found for a format or two.

Yes, there are horrible, worthless cards in the game. Every card game has them. But sometimes it can be a key component in a powerful deck. Butterfly Dagger - Elma is a horrible card. But it comboes for one of the most broken comboes in the game. Even the ones who actually are horrible cards may not have been seen as such when developed. It's not easy to develop good, balanced cards that are ALL playable. On this very site, we see innumerable examples of stupidly broken cards, or stupidly stupid cards. It's not that easy, and R+D has to do this for a constantly evolving game, by developing Sets that appeal to a broad audience, including veteran players and newbies. They have to try to make sure cards don't break the game, but aren't so weak to be dismissed, yet aren't so blatantly good that even the worst player can grab one without thought.
[/quote]
OH GOD I HAVE TO READ THIS WHY CAN'T YOU LEARN TO TYPE LESS

2) oh look there's no good reason
3) I'm saying that you can print more copies of the good commons in a given set instead of the set filler, leaving the ratio of commons to rares the same.

Gift Card was released after the nurse/ simoichi were out.
5) Stop being lazy, I've mentioned my idea like 4 times. The set filler can be reprinted in a pack with predetermined contents (40 cards or something).

Elphin was interesting tech when vayu turbo was at its prime, it has never been a bad card.
6) I'm not asking for more good cards to be printed. I'm just asking for the set filler to be taken out of the main sets and placed in a separate pack. The only effect would be to make the good commons worth slightly less.

[quote name='King of Nothing' timestamp='1309038110' post='5310404']
So, if nobody buys a pack for the commons, no change regaurding the commons needs to be done.
[/quote]
herp derp "just" is a word that doesn't exist

[King of Nothing]

Look, you obviously already lost the argument. You're just beating a dead horse with a stick. Konami doesn't want to lower the value of any cards, and most of these "bad commons" are actually experiments. Konami wants to see what people do and don't like. Believe it or not, there were probably some ideas in meta cards Konami got from commons. And no, Konami will never put the bad commons in a pack. It'd lower the value of commons, while increasing the price of the "good" packs.

Set filler is needed, everyone does it, and some set filler cards go on to be amazing.

[marcher boyz]

[quote name='King of Nothing' timestamp='1309038714' post='5310438']
Look, you obviously already lost the argument. You're just beating a dead horse with a stick. Konami doesn't want to lower the value of any cards, and most of these "bad commons" are actually experiments. Konami wants to see what people do and don't like. Believe it or not, there were probably some ideas in meta cards Konami got from commons. And no, Konami will never put the bad commons in a pack. It'd lower the value of commons, while increasing the price of the "good" packs.

Set filler is needed, everyone does it, and some set filler cards go on to be amazing.
[/quote]
How? How? I'm not tewart, so I can't argue with your amazing knowlege of konami's inner workings. I'm still not tewart. How do you know this? I won't believe it. I'm still still not tewart. Yes, no.

Nope, Cardfight Vanguard doesn't, what do you people think set filler means?

[evilfusion]

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1309038521' post='5310427']
OH GOD I HAVE TO READ THIS WHY CAN'T YOU LEARN TO TYPE LESS

2) oh look there's no good reason
3) I'm saying that you can print more copies of the good commons in a given set instead of the set filler, leaving the ratio of commons to rares the same.

Gift Card was released after the nurse/ simoichi were out.
5) Stop being lazy, I've mentioned my idea like 4 times. The set filler can be reprinted in a pack with predetermined contents (40 cards or something).

Elphin was interesting tech when vayu turbo was at its prime, it has never been a bad card.
6) I'm not asking for more good cards to be printed. I'm just asking for the set filler to be taken out of the main sets and placed in a separate pack. The only effect would be to make the good commons worth slightly less.


herp derp "just" is a word that doesn't exist
[/quote]

1) I haven't a clue. I'm somewhat known for my ranty long posts. Debates are fun and I like covering points.

2) Not necessarily, I'm just not the person to ask, as I'm not involved in the R+D or decisions.

3) That seems to be a matter that's easier said than done, I'm afraid. Again, a good common is subjective, and we already mentioned repeatedly that some Set filler are interesting cards we can't use yet/now, or anime cards that are mostly just there for the anime fanbase. I still see posts of people discussing an anime card and lamenting that it wasn't printed.

4) I know. It was just an example of a card that APPEARS bad, but actually is good. We're still looking for possibilities of those other Normal Traps with self-harming/opponent aiding effects. The fact they exist is the cross between a running joke and hidden potential.

5) Frankly, I just pop into this topic every hour or so, read the new posts, and if there's nothing to warrant a comment, I leave again, retaining very little of the content and definitely not who said what.

Then it comes down to "Who would buy a pack of meh cards?" vs "Nearly everyone will buy the actual Set packs, in the hopes they'll pull X". Plus it'd have a later release date since accumulating 40 Set filler cards in a predetermined pack may take more than 1 Set pack, assuming no duplicates. Unless the predetermined Set pack has a gem card, the way a lot of Structure Decks have awesome reprints that prompts "I'm buying 3 of those just for card X, Y, and Z!"

And again, with Elphin, it's an example of a card that's not useful. It's an interesting tech, but in this day, Elphin can be seen as bad EXCEPT in a Vayu Turbo deck. I view a number of "bad" cards the same way.

[King of Nothing]

[quote name='marcher boyz' timestamp='1309039275' post='5310461']
How? How? I'm not tewart, so I can't argue with your amazing knowlege of konami's inner workings. I'm still not tewart. How do you know this? I won't believe it. I'm still still not tewart. Yes, no.

Nope, Cardfight Vanguard doesn't, what do you people think set filler means?
[/quote]
Card Fight Vanguard isn't one of the greatest known and received TCGs of all time.

And how do I know that a "good" pack will be worth more than a "bad" pack. In this case, demand determines price. The demand of the good one will rise and the demand of the bad one will fall.

Once again, lrn2market

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that people wouldn't have to buy as many packs to get what they want. It's just a losing situation for Konami. We may call them idiots, but we are using their product and playing their game by their rules, so no matter how dumb we think they are, they're winning =P

[Catterjune]

Let me tell you a story.

About a year or two ago my friends and I all ran different decks. One friend ran Blackwings, I ran Zombies, another one ran Lightsworn, and another ran Gladiators.

So, next set, Raging Battle comes out. Black Whirlwind for Blackwing guy. Not much for the rest of us. Ancient Prophecy. Shinny Black C for LS guy's side board and Vayu for Blackwing guy. Absolute Power Force, we skip. Shining Darkness we skip. DREV we quit the game.

The point is that unless you're willing to ditch your old deck and play an entirely different new broken deck of the format, there's no reason to keep playing competitively. LS in LoDT. Blackwings in Crimson Crisis. X-Sabers in some other pack. Infernity in something else. Legendary Six Samurai next. I don't wanna spend 200 bucks per format to play the new broken deck of the now, especially after having already paid 200-ish dollars for the past broken deck of the now.

Konami frequently gives you the new cards to replace the old cards (usually the entire monster line up and a handful of s/t support) but then that means there are some cards you don't replace. The good cards, the common staples. Mirror Force, Torrential Tribute, Solemn, Bottomless, Monster Reborn, Brain Control, MST, Heavy Storm, Smashing Ground etc etc. It makes that 200+ dollar price tag just a little bit easier to swallow.

So... yeah. Printing entirely new archetypes with entirely new support is cool and all, but if there's only one thing worth buying in the entire set, it jacks up the price tremendously. Coupled with the rarity issues, and it's even worse. combined with no support for pre-existing archetypes and you have to throw out your deck at the start of a new format, which is incredibly frustrating for players.

The entrance fee to become a competitive player is pretty high, and to stay competitive for a year is pretty high as well. It's high because Konami makes terrible, terrible cards and one good card with a high rarity. The high price makes formerly dedicated players ragequit, or only play through DN or YVD or WC DS games or something.

And... that's my story. =\

[OnSlaUghT]

[quote name='Ｔｈｅ ｓｕｐｐｒｅｓｓｉｏｎ ＰＬＵＴＯ' timestamp='1308948493' post='5307896']
Black Lotus =/= Standard
Black Lotus =/= Legal

also
Black Lotus is a card whose last reprint was from 1993
So it has the added Value of collector
[/quote]

Wait, wait. That card is worth $3500???

f*** this, I'm leaving YuGiOh for MTG

[King of Nothing]

[quote name='OnSlaUghT' timestamp='1309052296' post='5310901']
Wait, wait. That card is worth $3500???

f*** this, I'm leaving YuGiOh for MTG
[/quote]
YuGiOh is way more profitable than MTG. Most cards in MTG don't go above 2 bucks.

[OnSlaUghT]

[quote name='King of Nothing' timestamp='1309052356' post='5310903']
YuGiOh is way more profitable than MTG.
[/quote]

For about 4 months until Konami reprints it

[King of Nothing]

[quote name='OnSlaUghT' timestamp='1309053090' post='5310921']
For about 4 months until Konami reprints it
[/quote]
Then it's still more than two dollars