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AKIO DAISUKE

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wiithepeople Newbie

wiithepeople

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[quote name='Ravenous Black' timestamp='1311189557' post='5372138']

>Dark Worlds
>Cerb

... Nani?

As for BLS, "It's gonna happen" logic is terrible.

Unknown Synchron Argument is terrible.

Big Fish is a horribly designed card, and a problem.
[/quote]

I'm glad I can inform you that you are now officially a retard due to circumstances that you further argued with me in an environment that is known as the Internet. I'd love to stay and further prove my point, but for now, I'm off to recieve my disability benefits.

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CDDRodrigo Newbie

CDDRodrigo

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[quote name='Ｄ・モバホン' timestamp='1311190350' post='5372170']
I'm glad I can inform you that you are now officially a retard due to circumstances that you further argued with me in an environment that is known as the Internet. I'd love to stay and further prove my point, but for now, I'm off to recieve my disability benefits.
[/quote]

[img]http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/134/4/d/1305394458_fail_troll_by_itamihachiko-d3gbjcz.png[/img]

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Blake Newbie

Blake

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[quote name='Ｄ・モバホン' timestamp='1311190350' post='5372170']
I'm glad I can inform you that you are now officially a retard due to circumstances that you further argued with me in an environment that is known as the Internet. I'd love to stay and further prove my point, but for now, I'm off to recieve my disability benefits.
[/quote]
This is a forum about a card game.

I am discussing said card game, which you said some insane things about.

By your logic, Klav is Mars, because he has argued with Mars.

AS stated above, ur doin eet rong

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Ieyasu Tokugawa Newbie

Ieyasu Tokugawa

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[quote name='Ｄ・モバホン' timestamp='1311189019' post='5372120']
But like I said, it's no longer there, derp. Again, don't make a fuss out of it.
[/quote]

[quote name='Ｄ・モバホン' timestamp='1311189019' post='5372120']
And this is me saying that I do not care.
[/quote]

There's my response. Also lol @BLS

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.Rai Newbie

.Rai

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[quote name='Ｄ・モバホン' timestamp='1311185830' post='5372018']
@0:
Mind Master (due to the FTKs it makes, such as the GustoFTK)

Spore, Glow-Up, Fishborg, and/or Unknown(because the release of Pain Painter assures me that Plague is safe for now)

Future Fusion (do I even need to explain the ridiculous FTK? Besides, Omni-Heroes are fine without it.)

@1:
Smoke Signal or Kagemusha (Either one could be banned as well, but as much as it hurts me to say this, Six Sams should still be playable, and these changes won't obliterate their style of play)

Royal Tribute (GKs are still abusing this card even @2. Putting it to 1 will make the GKs less of an overrun deck in the meta without hurting it too much. With Xyz on the way, I'm certain that no matter what gets banned, GKs are here to stay.)

Tribe-Infecting Virus (It can stop Six Sams, GKs, HEROs, pretty much anything, but it can easily be run over on the next turn given the high speed the meta is currently in.)

@2:
[b]BLS-EoB (Since Sorc is @3 now and with the re-release via GLD4, I'm sure this is coming back. But the main argument is where to put it. Chaos decks need to make a comeback IMO and I think shifting EoB to 2 and keeping watch on it just to see what that does to the meta would help define it's stand in the next format. Used too much? Put it to 1. Not used enough? Put it to 3.)[/b]

[b]The Fabled Cerburrel (This is by far a great Tuner, but it's being used in literally EVERY Fabled or Dark World deck I encounter. It's a bit contradictory to...)
[/b]
Gale the Whirlwind (...this card. It hasn't seen alot of usage, though mostly in everyone's Side Deck due to Shi-En's rampaging of the meta. If this is put to 2 at the same time that one of the Six Sam cards I mentioned is put to 1, that helps quite a bit.)
@3 MST (There's no reason why you shouldn't)
Card Trooper (I already mentioned this before in page 3 of this topic.)
[/quote]

Lol, no. Good Dark World don't need Cerburrel and BLS at 2 would break the
Meta. Gale shouldn't go up either.

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Sunshine Jesse Newbie

Sunshine Jesse

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[quote name='Mystery Guest' timestamp='1311160741' post='5371372']
Here are my counterarguments:
stuff
[/quote]
How is any of that good for creating a balanced, competitive environment? You have yet to explain that.
Prizes have nothing to do with creating a balanced environment.
And I don't expect my idea to be implemented, hence why this is Theory-Oh, not Practical-Oh. Even then, the changes I made ARE all practical.

[quote]
If you banned every banworthy card, the result wouldn't be a diverse meta. While I don't remember what the meta would be, many banlist threads done over and over suggest that banning all cards that create FTKs and OTKs and all other banworthy cards leads to a meta more tyrannical than the current one.
[/quote]
Prove it.

[quote]
Even so, you can side in more effect Veilers to stop most FTKs (except Gallis FTK).
[/quote]
The fact that you'd have to run a few specific cards just to stop such decks is unacceptable.
Not only does having to run/side specific cards coughsolemninasynchrospamformatcough to keep up reduce the overall skill in making decks, but it also requires you to be lucky enough to draw them or else likely lose, undermining the skill a player has.

[quote]
• It's always funny to see an expert duelist's face after they get beat by a crappy FTK deck run by a n00b.
[/quote]
You clearly do not have the best interests of the game in mind, then.

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.Rai Newbie

.Rai

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[quote name='Mystery Guest']If you banned every banworthy card, the result wouldn't be a diverse meta. While I don't remember what the meta would be, many banlist threads done over and over suggest that banning all cards that create FTKs and OTKs and all other banworthy cards leads to a meta more tyrannical than the current one.[/quote]

Meh, to be honest, I don't agree. Tier 1 is quite small and is where the majority of broken cards come from. If you Restrict more key cards in a deck, you will drop it down a tier or so. By doing so, you end up with that particular deck brought down to the same level as other archetypes. That tier becomes more diverse and balanced while the gap to upper tiers is made smaller.

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311237305' post='5373714']
The fact that you'd have to run a few specific cards just to stop such decks is unacceptable.
Not only does having to run/side specific cards coughsolemninasynchrospamformatcough to keep up reduce the overall skill in making decks, but it also requires you to be lucky enough to draw them or else likely lose, undermining the skill a player has.
[/quote]

The point is that no-one would run it. If Kagemusha was Limited, Shi-En was Limited and Smoke Signal was banned, I'm pretty sure Six Samurai would drop down by a few tiers. The point you're missing is:

[b]Good players[/b] won't try and play a deck that's Tier 3 and horribly inconsistent. Even if they build it right, they know they wouldn't stand a chance in a tournament.
[b]Bad players[/b] won't know how to build the deck. A bad player isn't someone who plays a bad archetype/deck type, it's someone who can't make a good deck. You end up with mish-mash decks that won't get a high score after few matchs. Of course some will get through but:

No matter what you do, the game will be partially luck-based. Cope with it.

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Mysty Newbie

Mysty

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Posted

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311237305' post='5373714']
How is any of that good for creating a balanced, competitive environment? You have yet to explain that.
Prizes have nothing to do with creating a balanced environment.
And I don't expect my idea to be implemented, hence why this is Theory-Oh, not Practical-Oh. Even then, the changes I made ARE all practical.
[/quote]
How do you expect me to know which block of text you're referring to if you replace it with "stuff"? It isn't on the same page and I'd much rather not backtrack through all the various pages to figure out what I said.

Though I can imagine I was talking more of a practical sense when it comes to business and you were sticking with Theory-Oh.

Making a 3-0 banlist isn't practical, however.

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311237305' post='5373714']
Prove it.
[/quote]
I think this would be better explained if you tried to make a banlist thread (if they aren't still forbidden). However, the responses you get will look something like:
• A: We need to make a 3-0 logic banlist and ban all cards that are bad for the game.
[after a huge, possibly endless discussion of what cards are good for the game and which ones are bad]
• B: NO WAI! That's just gonna result in a Machina Gadgets format!
• A: Not if you ban Fortress.
• B: Fortress has no reason to be on the list!
• A: It does now.
• C: Hey, why does it have to be a complete 3-0 list? Why can't it just be banning the banworthy cards?
• A: Because you have to think about the meta that would be made by creating the list.
• D: UNBAN BLS-EOTB HERP-A-DERP-DERP!
• A: No.
• E: Well, Plants still look broken in this list.
• F: What about Gadget Monarchs?
and this pattern continues.
Something like that.

From what I remember, in a meta where all OTK and FTK causers and all other cards banworthy and/or bad for the game are all banned, it results in any of Plants, Stun, Monarchs, and/or Gadgets ruling the meta with no other decktypes even coming close in power. Sure, you could ban the cards that make those good, but another deck would rise and you'd have to ban some of that decktype until every good deck felt equal. When that happens, though, every deck would probably feel really weak and the game would probably be less interesting than it is with some broken cards.

Many people would probably quit as well. I mean, I personally wouldn't continue the game if its banlist exceeded over 100 cards (without looking at the few Limited and Semi-Limited) and the meta still weren't balanced.

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311237305' post='5373714']
The fact that you'd have to run a few specific cards just to stop such decks is unacceptable.
Not only does having to run/side specific cards coughsolemninasynchrospamformatcough to keep up reduce the overall skill in making decks, but it also requires you to be lucky enough to draw them or else likely lose, undermining the skill a player has.
[/quote]
That's what a Side Deck is for. And why is it unacceptable? The idea of a Side Deck is to allow you to run specific cards to stop certain decks.
How does that reduce the skill in making decks? By that logic, staples reduce the skill in deck building.
The fact that you have to balance staples with your theme requires skill. If there were no staple cards, you could just absentmindedly fill the deck with themed cards.
You have to run at least 14 different cards in a deck. Of course luck is going to play a factor in this game.

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311237305' post='5373714']
You clearly do not have the best interests of the game in mind, then.
[/quote]
My argument was clearly a troll argument. But it was true. It's like what happens when a pro's opponent topdecks, which could happen in any meta.

[quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1311242687' post='5373796']
Tier 1 is quite small and is where the majority of broken cards come from. If you Restrict more key cards in a deck, you will drop it down a tier or so. By doing so, you end up with that particular deck brought down to the same level as other archetypes. That tier becomes more diverse and balanced while the gap to upper tiers is made smaller.
[/quote]
Note how my initial argument said "every" banworthy card. I completely agree with the above statement; only 3-0ing decks that are causing a problem is a better solution than 3-0ing the whole game.

[quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1311242687' post='5373796']
The point is that no-one would run it. If Kagemusha was Limited, Shi-En was Limited and Smoke Signal was banned, I'm pretty sure Six Samurai would drop down by a few tiers. The point you're missing is:

[b]Good players[/b] won't try and play a deck that's Tier 3 and horribly inconsistent. Even if they build it right, they know they wouldn't stand a chance in a tournament.
[b]Bad players[/b] won't know how to build the deck. A bad player isn't someone who plays a bad archetype/deck type, it's someone who can't make a good deck. You end up with mish-mash decks that won't get a high score after few matchs. Of course some will get through but:

No matter what you do, the game will be partially luck-based. Cope with it.
[/quote]
Q4E.

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Sunshine Jesse Newbie

Sunshine Jesse

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Posted

[quote]That's what a Side Deck is for. And why is it unacceptable? The idea of a Side Deck is to allow you to run specific cards to stop certain decks.
How does that reduce the skill in making decks? By that logic, staples reduce the skill in deck building.
The fact that you have to balance staples with your theme requires skill. If there were no staple cards, you could just absentmindedly fill the deck with themed cards.
You have to run at least 14 different cards in a deck. Of course luck is going to play a factor in this game.
[/quote]
Staples are things that you almost -have- to include in the deck else your deck is inferior to others. That DOES reduce skill in deck building.
I don't really mind staples, as long as they require skill to use. coughdarkholeandreborncough

and I never said I want to eliminate luck in the game. I just don't want luck to be the main deciding factor every match like it is now. I don't want someone to win because they opened with an overpowered semi/limited card. coughgatewayroyaltributeandlonefirecough
I think luck should only be a major factor in that it tests the skill of players to accommodate for undesireable situations. It's not really possible this format, as it's incredibly difficult to accommodate due to the nature of the top decks.

[quote]
Note how my initial argument said "every" banworthy card. I completely agree with the above statement; only 3-0ing decks that are causing a problem is a better solution than 3-0ing the whole game.
[/quote]
but i did 3-0 every deck that was causing a problem except miracle gemini and x-sabers
maybe not EFFECTIVELY but I did

[quote]From what I remember, in a meta where all OTK and FTK causers and all other cards banworthy and/or bad for the game are all banned, it results in any of Plants, Stun, Monarchs, and/or Gadgets ruling the meta with no other decktypes even coming close in power. Sure, you could ban the cards that make those good, but another deck would rise and you'd have to ban some of that decktype until every good deck felt equal. When that happens, though, every deck would probably feel really weak and the game would probably be less interesting than it is with some broken cards.
[/quote]
I don't want a complete 3-0 list. It'd suck the fun out of the game.
I just want to 3-0 the current decks because they are not fun (aside from Fableds)

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Mysty Newbie

Mysty

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[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311272006' post='5374747']
Staples are things that you almost -have- to include in the deck else your deck is inferior to others. That DOES reduce skill in deck building.
[/quote]
I don't remember a staple being so good that it was put into EVERY deck. There are some that fit into many decks, but not all. In addition, if there are a lot of staples, but you have to choose among them. You need to balance your theme with the staples and which staples over others. That all require skill, as opposed to just figuring out which cards of your theme and support you want to use.

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311272006' post='5374747']
I don't really mind staples, as long as they require skill to use. coughdarkholeandreborncough
[/quote]
Not sure if I agree that Dark Hole and Monster Reborn required skill to use, but I do agree with your statement otherwise.

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311272006' post='5374747']
and I never said I want to eliminate luck in the game. I just don't want luck to be the main deciding factor every match like it is now. I don't want someone to win because they opened with an overpowered semi/limited card. coughgatewayroyaltributeandlonefirecough
I think luck should only be a major factor in that it tests the skill of players to accommodate for undesireable situations. It's not really possible this format, as it's incredibly difficult to accommodate due to the nature of the top decks.
[/quote]
Your emphasis isn't on FTK and OTK decks anymore; now, it's on the Meta decks.
I say you're completely right that the Meta decks pretty much make luck (particularly, the coin flip) the winning factor.

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311272006' post='5374747']
but i did 3-0 every deck that was causing a problem except miracle gemini and x-sabers
maybe not EFFECTIVELY but I did
[/quote]
What list are you talking about again?

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1311272006' post='5374747']
I don't want a complete 3-0 list. It'd suck the fun out of the game.
I just want to 3-0 the current decks because they are not fun (aside from Fableds)
[/quote]
Now you're agreeing with me.

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shelds9 Newbie

shelds9

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Posted

Just to take away from ze Flames:

Cards that should be on the Banlist IDK where

Shi En
Librarian
Hyperion
Glow-Up
Tengu
Meister
Spore
Lonefire

These are the one off the top of my head. If Spore and Glow-Up are to be put on, they have to be banned, as nobody with relative intelligence uses more than one (unless I missed a tot. metagame deck...) Lonefire might not be Banned now, but as more and more Plants come out, it will...

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Sunshine Jesse Newbie

Sunshine Jesse

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[quote name='Mystery Guest' timestamp='1311353440' post='5377649']
I don't remember a staple being so good that it was put into EVERY deck. There are some that fit into many decks, but not all. In addition, if there are a lot of staples, but you have to choose among them. You need to balance your theme with the staples and which staples over others. That all require skill, as opposed to just figuring out which cards of your theme and support you want to use.


Not sure if I agree that Dark Hole and Monster Reborn required skill to use, but I do agree with your statement otherwise.
[/quote]
I was coughing because I don't think that they do.

[quote name='Mystery Guest' timestamp='1311353440' post='5377649']
Your emphasis isn't on FTK and OTK decks anymore; now, it's on the Meta decks.
I say you're completely right that the Meta decks pretty much make luck (particularly, the coin flip) the winning factor.
[/quote]
I don't necessarily want a format with all the crazy s*** taken out. I'd be fine with a format that you synchro spam OTK... as long as it required some semblance of skill to do.
exhibit A: Teledad
anti-exhibit B: Exodia/Chimeratech/Fish

although i would like more variance than just teledad.dek

[quote name='Mystery Guest' timestamp='1311353440' post='5377649']
What list are you talking about again?
[/quote]
The one I threw together.

[quote name='Mystery Guest' timestamp='1311353440' post='5377649']
Now you're agreeing with me.
[/quote]

What I meant was one of those infamous 3-0 lists that suck all the fun out of the game.

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