.Rai Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 [quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1333234833' post='5896585'] While good flavor is nice it still doesn't make the game design good. Actual card design is the turning of the knobs to get things just in the right place for the set needs and that is what makes it good. Just because a lot of the path has been taken already you would be suprise how much space is still open. Ok, that is a fair argument and I can see the logic you used to end up at it. I'll give you that. [/quote] Makes Bushi Chaos decent /argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Wait... so why do we have a four page topic on a terrible normal monster that's outclassed in most areas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1333235486' post='5896606'] Wait... so why do we have a four page topic on a terrible normal monster that's outclassed in most areas? [/quote] Because we're actually discussing card design and decoding Konami's logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuh Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Dudes, you're getting a free card. Stop complaining that it isn't Tengu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDDRodrigo Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1333235486' post='5896606'] Wait... so why do we have a four page topic on a terrible normal monster that's outclassed in most areas? [/quote] Because some people like design too, not just metagame usage. Wait... so why did you post here if you don't care about design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizarus Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 [quote name='Azuh' timestamp='1333236571' post='5896647'] Dudes, you're getting a free card. Stop complaining that it isn't Tengu. [/quote] Maybe you'd be happy if Frog the Jam was a sneak. I wouldn't be. As it is now, its not worth much, and the people who actually wanted this card would have gotten it whether it was a sneak or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 If Frog the Jam were a promo I'd collect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 [quote name='Wizarus' timestamp='1333238003' post='5896701'] Maybe you'd be happy if Frog the Jam was a sneak. I wouldn't be. As it is now, its not worth much, and the people who actually wanted this card would have gotten it whether it was a sneak or not. [/quote] I'd be happy with Frog the Jam. Pretty sure a lot of people would be happy with a good rarity sneak peek promo Frog the Jam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuh Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='Wizarus' timestamp='1333238003' post='5896701'] Maybe you'd be happy if Frog the Jam was a sneak. I wouldn't be. As it is now, its not worth much, and the people who actually wanted this card would have gotten it whether it was a sneak or not. [/quote] Sneak Peek cards generally have to be something generic. Why? Because they have tournaments using only GAOV cards. Having an 1800 ATK warrior isnt something that is easily stopped unless you somehow collected all the Hieratic cards in your packs. I would be happy with Frog the Jam as A sneak card cause im still getting 5 new packs when I pay my $20, much cheaper than what buying 5 packs would be outside the sneak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 ITT: People aren't happy with getting cards earlier than normal as well as a free card as well as being entered into a tournament as well as getting cards cheaper than from a mainstream market. Yet they still want a free Tour Guide or something. basically what azuh said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. guy Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Hey Hey guys It's a light laser target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDDRodrigo Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='Mr. guy' timestamp='1333238764' post='5896729'] Hey Hey guys It's a light laser target [/quote] You know what else is a Light Laser target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizarus Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1333238569' post='5896718'] ITT: People aren't happy with getting cards earlier than normal as well as a free card as well as being entered into a tournament as well as getting cards cheaper than from a mainstream market. Yet they still want a free Tour Guide or something. basically what azuh said. [/quote] Of course the promo isn't the only reason to go. Of course the promo doesn't have to be something like Tour Guide. But it shouldn't be something that's only useful for that tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDDRodrigo Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='Wizarus' timestamp='1333239933' post='5896759'] But it shouldn't be something that's only useful for that tournament. [/quote] It's not only useful there =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1333235271' post='5896598'] Makes Bushi Chaos decent /argument [/quote] Cool. Doesn't mean it should be a sneak card. [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1333235661' post='5896611'] Because we're actually discussing card design and decoding Konami's logic. [/quote] He have hardly talked about the card's design or Konami logic. In terms of card design this is just a simple normal monster. You can only talk about turning knobs so much. In terms of Konami logic, that is an actual topic for this card. How does Konami think this will increase sneak peak attendance? [quote name='Azuh' timestamp='1333236571' post='5896647'] Dudes, you're getting a free card. Stop complaining that it isn't Tengu. [/quote] [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1333238569' post='5896718'] ITT: People aren't happy with getting cards earlier than normal as well as a free card as well as being entered into a tournament as well as getting cards cheaper than from a mainstream market. Yet they still want a free Tour Guide or something. basically what azuh said. [/quote] [quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1333230517' post='5896506'] Cool, tell me not to go to the sneak peak because I don't like the card I get. That does the EXACT opposite of what you want a sneak peak card to do. The sneak peak card should never make someone not want to go (if I wanted to go this wouldn't stop me) but make you want to go even more and push people on the fence over the top. [quote name='Tsukasa Hiiragi' timestamp='1333229280' post='5896476'] YOU HEARD THE MAN! WE NEED MORE TENGUS! [/quote] God no. [/quote] Because you seemed to have missed me saying that already. I would never not go to a sneak peak because of a bad promo. I'm going to get cards early, hang out with people, and play. I do not want more stupidly op cards. It is nice when you can pay to enter and get a card that can get you back most of your money, but that isn't what the game needs. And I would never expect a game company to just give away cards they think will end up as the sets money cards. My first post in this thread was me questioning why this would be made into a sneak peak card. It isn't exciting and isn't going to incentives people to go and play. Only one answer has been given for why someone wouldn't mind this as a sneak peak card was this [quote name='Pacmanexus' timestamp='1333233919' post='5896558'] 2.I actually like it as the sneak card. For one thing, in the pod tournament, an 1800/1800 is really nice to have. Also, this is a card that you really don't want to buy, but would be cool to own for collection purposes, so getting a guaranteed copy for going to the sneak is good. [/quote] but that still doesn't explain why this is should be a sneak peak card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Why is it a sneak peak card? - Because it's a decent card - It has good flavour text - It's certainly an improvement on what's been given before - It promotes Excalibur - The keen-eyed will try to find good uses for it - Will subtly boost the prices of some cards like Ptolemys and Excalibur and stuff - Very subtly makes Guaiba worse. - It's a good collector's card - It's one of the only legitimately good cards to sneak peek for Galactic Overlord - It's to show that Konami have improved in making TCG exclusives - It's a good card for a Sealed tournament, like in Sneak Peeks - It's a fun casual card, since competitive play isn't the only thing - Bushi Solidarity lovers - Gives an alternative to Sparkman - It's fundamentally nostalgic, and the next set is rather like that, recalling things like E-Heroes. And this is meant for a card in the next set. - Will boost sales of Return of the Duelist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1333240947' post='5896789'] Why is it a sneak peak card? - Because it's a decent card - It has good flavour text - It's certainly an improvement on what's been given before - It promotes Excalibur - The keen-eyed will try to find good uses for it - Will subtly boost the prices of some cards like Ptolemys and Excalibur and stuff - Very subtly makes Guaiba worse. - It's a good collector's card - It's one of the only legitimately good cards to sneak peek for Galactic Overlord - It's to show that Konami have improved in making TCG exclusives - It's a good card for a Sealed tournament, like in Sneak Peeks - It's a fun casual card, since competitive play isn't the only thing - Bushi Solidarity lovers - Gives an alternative to Sparkman - It's fundamentally nostalgic, and the next set is rather like that, recalling things like E-Heroes. And this is meant for a card in the next set. - Will boost sales of Return of the Duelist. [/quote] 1) Just being decent doesn't make a good sneak card (here on called promo). 2) Having good flavor does not make promo. 3) This being better is just a measure of how bad past promos have been. 4) I could be wrong, but isn't he in the next set? That doesn't matter atm. Plus wouldn't any LV 4 Warrior do that? 5) Trying to find out what cool ways to use a card makes for a good promo. This doesn't do anything cool, just lines up with the needs of certain decks so will just get played in them over other, very similar cards. 6) This will only boost their price if he ends up being good enough to make them that much more relvent in the meta. If he doesn't do anything he will hardly change anything. 7) Any monster with 1800 in a stat makes Guaiba worse. Also just being good against 1 card is a horrible reason to be used as a promo. It has sweet art and amazing flavor text as such it will be a collector's card. This works. 9) The promo is always a TCG exclusive so Konami could have easily made something more interesting. 10) Showing you can make a vanilla doesn't show your better at making exclusives. 11) Ok, this I could very easily be wrong about this, but I wouldn't think you would be able to play the promo you get in your deck for the event. At least that is how it is in MTG. Could be wrong though. If it is true, then fine I guess. 12) How is this a good casual card? Casual players will only see something worse then most effect monsters since they can do something cool and just run over or trade with him. I honestly don't think any casual player would like getting this 13) Again, having a deck to be played in doesn't make for a good promo card. 14) Again, being better then Sparkman isn't a reason to make it a promo. 15) Cool, why isn't this in the next set then. 16) It does that just be being in the set. It doesn't need to be the promo. Hell, by being the promo that will put my copies in print actually making it easier to get and making the increase of sales this could have had less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1333242967' post='5896841'] 1) Just being decent doesn't make a good sneak card (here on called promo). 2) Having good flavor does not make promo. 3) This being better is just a measure of how bad past promos have been. 4) I could be wrong, but isn't he in the next set? That doesn't matter atm. Plus wouldn't any LV 4 Warrior do that? 5) Trying to find out what cool ways to use a card makes for a good promo. This doesn't do anything cool, just lines up with the needs of certain decks so will just get played in them over other, very similar cards. 6) This will only boost their price if he ends up being good enough to make them that much more relvent in the meta. If he doesn't do anything he will hardly change anything. 7) Any monster with 1800 in a stat makes Guaiba worse. Also just being good against 1 card is a horrible reason to be used as a promo. It has sweet art and amazing flavor text as such it will be a collector's card. This works. 9) The promo is always a TCG exclusive so Konami could have easily made something more interesting. 10) Showing you can make a vanilla doesn't show your better at making exclusives. 11) Ok, this I could very easily be wrong about this, but I wouldn't think you would be able to play the promo you get in your deck for the event. At least that is how it is in MTG. Could be wrong though. If it is true, then fine I guess. 12) How is this a good casual card? Casual players will only see something worse then most effect monsters since they can do something cool and just run over or trade with him. I honestly don't think any casual player would like getting this 13) Again, having a deck to be played in doesn't make for a good promo card. 14) Again, being better then Sparkman isn't a reason to make it a promo. 15) Cool, why isn't this in the next set then. 16) It does that just be being in the set. It doesn't need to be the promo. Hell, by being the promo that will put my copies in print actually making it easier to get and making the increase of sales this could have had less. [/quote] What makes a sneak peek card a sneak peek card then? I covered pretty much most things there yet my argument still seems to be flawed. I think the card is interesting, it's a collectively calm move from Konami. For some reason, vanillas aren't interesting to any person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 I feel this is just complaining for the sake of complaining. There is no set rules a promo card must follow. It's not like it'll affect the Sneak that much regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1333243492' post='5896858'] What makes a sneak peek card a sneak peek card then? I covered pretty much most things there yet my argument still seems to be flawed. I think the card is interesting, it's a collectively calm move from Konami. For some reason, vanillas aren't interesting to any person. [/quote] Something that shows of an aspect of the set and will get players to come to the sneak peek. These cards normally have to do something cool or interesting. Because of how yugioh is set normally just creating a sweet card for an archetype is enough. Using this set as the example "Bouncer", "Phantom Butterfly Assassin" and "Hieratic" archetypes got introduced so some cool support for them as the sneak peak card is nice. Hieratic seems to be the archetype with depths so that would be the best choice. Looking at the onces we already have Hieratic Seal of the Dragon King and Hieratic Seal from the Ashes would both be fine. However something as simple as "Equiped only to a Normal Monster with 0 ATK and 0 DEF. It gains 2500 ATK and 2500 DEF. When the monster equipped with this card is removed from the field you can banish a dragon in your gravyard to return it to your hand." would be a sweet imo. Granted this is a matter of opinion of what cards a person likes. Also, that could be broken, just throwing at a possible design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Wait so, a card with even less competitive value than a Vanilla would be a good Sneak card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='Flame Dragon' timestamp='1333244703' post='5896894'] Something that shows of an aspect of the set and will get players to come to the sneak peek. These cards normally have to do something cool or interesting. Because of how yugioh is set normally just creating a sweet card for an archetype is enough. Using this set as the example "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Bouncer"]Bouncer[/url]", "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Phantom_Butterfly_Assassin"]Phantom Butterfly Assassin[/url]" and "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Hieratic"]Hieratic[/url]" archetypes got introduced so some cool support for them as the sneak peak card is nice. Hieratic seems to be the archetype with depths so that would be the best choice. Looking at the onces we already have Hieratic Seal of the Dragon King and Hieratic Seal from the Ashes would both be fine. However something as simple as "Equiped only to a Normal Monster with 0 ATK and 0 DEF. It gains 2500 ATK and 2500 DEF. When the monster equipped with this card is removed from the field you can banish a dragon in your gravyard to return it to your hand." would be a sweet imo. Granted this is a matter of opinion. Also, that could be broken, just throwing at a possible design. [/quote] A sneak peek card should [b]never [/b]be archetypal for far too many reasons I can't be bothered to list o_o Far too many reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1333244797' post='5896899'] Wait so, a card with even less competitive value than a Vanilla would be a good Sneak card? [/quote] In a 100 card set I'd say about 1/4 of them are going to be competitive. Not to mention you designing for a moving target. As such the sneak peak card will only ever so often have competitive value. I have no idea what the meta is and in order to make something that has value there I would need to have some knowledge of it. IMO it is inherently strong having synergy with tokens and being able to work around the inherent card disadvantage most equipment has. So tell me, what do you think a good sneak peak card is? [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1333244853' post='5896902'] A sneak peek card should [b]never [/b]be archetypal for far too many reasons I can't be bothered to list o_o Far too many reasons. [/quote] 1) That card isn't archetypal. It works with any 0/0 normal monster. Tons of tokens are that. It just plays well with what Hieratic's do, get you normal monsters and make them 0/0. 2) Why? Because it is to narrow? It might have been a while since I played but yugioh still seems to be built around archetypes. With them still being the main focus I don't see why it would be bad, so I'd like some of these reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 A good promo is a generic card that isn't metagame worthy. Has a couple of hidden perks and has a nice "flavour" to it. Basically, it just has to be a decent card, but a generic one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1333246317' post='5896946'] A good promo is a generic card that isn't metagame worthy. Has a couple of hidden perks and has a nice "flavour" to it. Basically, it just has to be a decent card, but a generic one. [/quote] Why does it need to be generic? A lot of the meta is archetype based so why wouldn't I want to design cards for archetypes? IMO the sneak peak card should show off what the set is about, and by having something that ties into the set, and as such the sets main archetype, makes for the best card. So something like this [img]http://i40.tinypic.com/244wua9.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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