Appearently, the existance of [Alternate Win Conditions] poses a huge threat to the game

[Miror B]

Stall and Draw decks have no reason to exist without those win conditions though.

[RyanAtlus]

[quote name='Tsukasa Hiiragi' timestamp='1334602086' post='5915753']
Stall and Draw decks have no reason to exist without those win conditions though.
[/quote]

Win condition Decks will be even more unplayable without Stall and Draw, unless built like a few years back. Those builds, depite being god awfull in today's metagame, still provided some form of player interaction.

[Blake]

Wait, did you seriously say stop making stuff to make Exodia consistent?

There you go, you just proved one of the major problems with Alternate Win Conditions: They promote restrictive card design, just like Brionac does.

They stifle the creaticity, power, and overall usage of a card because you either broke it wide open unintentionally for that deck (One Day of Peace, and sorta Card-Car D) or you made it absolutely worthless.

When cards like this exist in the game, it's very hard to make well designed cards like Pot of Duality that won't go OOPS I BROKEDED IT or that have no use whatsoever.

[Miror B]

[quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334602282' post='5915756']
Win condition Decks will be even more unplayable without Stall and Draw, unless built like a few years back. Those builds, depite being god awfull in today's metagame, still provided some form of player interaction.
[/quote]
Stall has no point without win conditions.

[RyanAtlus]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1334602398' post='5915761']
Wait, did you seriously say stop making stuff to make Exodia consistent?

There you go, you just proved one of the major problems with Alternate Win Conditions: They promote restrictive card design, just like Brionac does.

They stifle the creaticity, power, and overall usage of a card because you either broke it wide open unintentionally for that deck (One Day of Peace, and sorta Card-Car D) or you made it absolutely worthless.

When cards like this exist in the game, it's very hard to make well designed cards like Pot of Duality that won't go OOPS I BROKEDED IT or that have no use whatsoever.
[/quote]

Let's say Exodia gets banned next list. Would that mean generic draw engines become less bad for the game?

[.Rai]

[quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334602564' post='5915765']


Let's say Exodia gets banned next list. Would that mean generic draw engines become less bad for the game?
[/quote]

Yes.

Edit: Or, quote Ravenous' first sentence below.

[Blake]

[quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334602564' post='5915765']
Let's say Exodia gets banned next list. Would that mean generic draw engines become less bad for the game?
[/quote]
No, because countdown, stall, and burn still exist..

You shouldn't have a ton of them, but a general draw engine isn't a bad thing. The "V6" engine is used in a lot of decks, and while card-car is a bit TOO good, they're nothing game breaking, just consistency boosters. However, with the alt win conditions (Not like Venominaga, she's the only "fine" one), stall, and burn, it makes it so that any draw power that's generic, especially one day of peace, is broken as hell in the right place. Yet, Duality is still perfect design except for them, so remove them and the answer is yes.

Really, 1-2 more generic draw spells and Exodia is Tier 1.

[RyanAtlus]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1334602838' post='5915777']
No, because countdown, stall, and burn still exist..

You shouldn't have a ton of them, but a general draw engine isn't a bad thing. The "V6" engine is used in a lot of decks, and while card-car is a bit TOO good, they're nothing game breaking, just consistency boosters. However, with the alt win conditions (Not like Venominaga, she's the only "fine" one), stall, and burn, it makes it so that any draw power that's generic, especially one day of peace, is broken as hell in the right place. Yet, Duality is still perfect design except for them, so remove them and the answer is yes.

Really, 1-2 more generic draw spells and Exodia is Tier 1.
[/quote]

Then, can we finally aggree on something and state that:

+Exodia, Countdown (and Burn) make Stall and Draw worse for the game.
+Stall and Draw make Exodia, Countdown (and Burn) worse for the game.
=>This cycle can be stopped by either banning the alt wins or reducing the amount of Stall/Draw in the game.
==>Banning the alt wins make Stall and Draw less bad for the game, reducing Stall/Draw in the game leads to alt wins becoming less consitent.

[.Rai]

[quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334603161' post='5915785']
==>Banning the alt wins make Stall and Draw less bad for the game, reducing Stall/Draw in the game leads to alt wins becoming less consitent.
[/quote]

The former, not the latter, is obviously the better option.

[Agro]

[quote name='RyanAtlus' timestamp='1334603161' post='5915785']


Then, can we finally aggree on something and state that:

+Exodia, Countdown (and Burn) make Stall and Draw worse for the game.
+Stall and Draw make Exodia, Countdown (and Burn) worse for the game.
=>This cycle can be stopped by either banning the alt wins or reducing the amount of Stall/Draw in the game.
==>Banning the alt wins make Stall and Draw less bad for the game, reducing Stall/Draw in the game leads to alt wins becoming less consitent.
[/quote]But there are less alt. win conditions, so we should ban those instead.

[.Rai]

[quote name='Aggro' timestamp='1334603290' post='5915791']
But there are less alt. win conditions, so we should ban those instead.
[/quote]

This. One of the rules of design is simplicity.

Do the simplest thing you can do, and make it as effortless as possible.

[Stellar Leonis]

I still fail to understand what made them create One Day of Peace...

"Oh, but the opponent draws too!" they said.

"Exodia will never be a meta deck" they said.

[evilfusion]

One Day of Peace was the worst draw power card designed recently. It promotes Decktypes that are bad for the game. It draws and stalls. What Deck wants to do both? Exodia and Countdown. Do either of those Decks CARE if the opponent can't be damage or draws 1 as well? No.

Aside from Exodia and Countdown, all other alternate win conditions are either too flimsy to work consistently, or too hard to pull off anyway. Vennominaga is an awesome alternate win. Except that you're more likely to win by LP = 0, due to the fact that it's immune to pretty much everything and gets ATK for Reptiles in Grave.

[Kingdom Xathers]

[quote name='Hatcher' timestamp='1334599253' post='5915696']
There are many more things you can do with being allowed to draw endlessly in a duel other then "Exodia! GG!"
[/quote]

Yeah, like Royal Magical Library Loop into Blasting the Ruins in Triplicate

[This Account is Unplayable]

So we can safely establish that Venominaga is the only well designed alt win in yugioh?

This shouldn't be much of a discussion, fact of the matter is that alt wins are bad for the game in terms of how they play and they also limit creativity with new cards.

Simple solution is ban Exodia, Final Countdown and Morphing Jar. =/

[-Lightray Daedalus-]

The Fun part of Alternate Win Conditions is that they are not alternate at all...

=/

[Catterjune]

[quote]But here's the thing with that: If it becomes 'DRAWDRAWDRAWDRAWDRAWDRAW', then it's no longer just luck it's also autopilot, which is absolutely stupid.[/quote]
I'll agree with that, but my point was to explain why at a fundamental level Exodia was bad for the game, not why right now or soon enough it would be bad for the game.

But other people explained my point much more succinctly then I did already so I don't think there's much else I can contribute to this topic.

[ekko1990]

Just wanted to put this up in case someone from Yugioh's design staff checks over.

Alternative win conditions are just that, alternate. So Venominaga who still will most likely win by normal conditions also have an alternate way of winning if it should be needed. However, Exodia, Final Countdown and Empty Jar decks use those alts as main victory conditions.

I'm hoping that in the future there will be some more alternative victory conditions that can be run alongside the normal win condition without taking over.

[Azuh]

Someone needs to make a deck that has all the win conditions in it (except Last Turn)

[Kingdom Xathers]

[quote name='Azuh' timestamp='1334705647' post='5917378']
Someone needs to make a deck that has all the win conditions in it (except Last Turn)
[/quote]

... which, unless I'm mistaken, would be a primarily Vanilla Reptile Deck with Venominaga as the Boss, and Exodia, Destiny Board and Final Countdown thrown in (maybe Self-Destruct Button, too, just to be a giant dick).

[Zowayix]

I'd like to see alternate win conditions cards based off of those from MtG.

It's really late right now and I can't remember most of them, but here's two:

1. [Normal Spell] If you control 5 monsters of different Attributes, 1 Field Spell Card, 1 Continuous Spell Card, and 1 Equip Spell Card when you activate this card, reveal 1 face-down Ritual Spell Card and 1 face-down Quick-Play Spell Card on your side of the field; you win the Duel. (Worded to avoid Diamond Dude and E-Hero Electrum abuse. The Ritual Spell Card probably was overkill.)
2. [Continuous Spell] If you have 10 or fewer Life Points during your Standby Phase, you win the Duel. (Fastest method I can think of is Backs to the Wall + A Hero Lives + 3x Solemn Judgment, or some other combination to halve your LP four times. That's a 6-card OTK.)

[ekko1990]

I've had a thought about how to fix Morphing Jar so that one turn empty jar decks become impossible. Either erata or rerelease a new Morphing Jar with the added text of either "Each player can only activate the effect of "Morphing Jar" once per duel." or (this one would be the best) adding this part at the end of its effect "then banish this card" (as far as I've seen, empty jar decks need A/D Changer to do the otk).

What do you guys think?

@Zowayix
The first one is pretty nice if made easier to accomplish (currently there is almost not 0.1 percent chance that you could pull it off) as you would mostly use it as an alternative win which you use when these conditions are possible in your deck, The second one however is either impossible to accomplish or almost, as you can max halve your life points twice if I recall correctly (A hero lives + 1 Solemn Judgement) which would leave you with 12.25 health unless you were attacked by a monster with 50 in its original attack that has been halved.

[TheTurtleOnceCalledGod]

Here's a question for YCM: What do you think is [i]good [/i]for the game? No really, in the world of rapid OTK's that are based on people having money/luck to get certain key cards, while cheaper decks such as these are frowned upon because they reduce player to player interaction, what is one supposed to do? If these FTK's were even slightly competitive, they would be sided against with cards that could potentially stop them. People rage over things they lose against. Do people just want the format to be stuck at Perfect Circle, and everything else that would allow abuse to be banned altogether? A static game is a dead game. People seem to [i]like[/i] the fast-paced format, otherwise why would people be buying cards? Why do something if it isn't necessary for survival and won't realistically help people (other than those employed to make and ship and sell the cards) if you do not enjoy it. If you enjoy the game, stop complaining about it. The world isn't perfect, deal with it.
[quote name='Azuh' timestamp='1334705647' post='5917378']
Someone needs to make a deck that has all the win conditions in it (except Last Turn)
[/quote]
That was my billy deck a few years ago, when last turn was still limited.

[Blake]

[quote name='TheTurtleOnceCalledGod' timestamp='1334747209' post='5917790']
Here's a question for YCM: What do you think is [i]good [/i]for the game? No really, in the world of rapid OTK's that are based on people having money/luck to get certain key cards, while cheaper decks such as these are frowned upon because they reduce player to player interaction, what is one supposed to do? If these FTK's were even slightly competitive, they would be sided against with cards that could potentially stop them. People rage over things they lose against. Do people just want the format to be stuck at Perfect Circle, and everything else that would allow abuse to be banned altogether? A static game is a dead game. People seem to [i]like[/i] the fast-paced format, otherwise why would people be buying cards? Why do something if it isn't necessary for survival and won't realistically help people (other than those employed to make and ship and sell the cards) if you do not enjoy it. If you enjoy the game, stop complaining about it. The world isn't perfect, deal with it.

That was my billy deck a few years ago, when last turn was still limited.
[/quote]
Lolwat?

I love this argument. "You just want alt eons banned because you lose to them". Since I've started learning how to play the game more competitively, I've only lost to Empty Jar, and I was running Countdown to mess with a guy SHO said "No synchro Xyz bs" or whatever.

Just because other stuff is bad for the game does not mean Alt wins are GOOD. As said, Venominaga is the ONLY balanced One in the game, and is potentially good for the game, because she is a legitimate Alternate Win Condition because she can win normally and promotes decks made to use her BOTH ways.

I don't see how speed has anything to do with how bad alt won conditions are for the game. They're bad even in a slOw game and even force a degree of slowness on the game because of restrictive card design thanks to, LE gasp, Alt wins.

And arguing "you can side against it" doesn't make it any better in design.

Your whole post can be summed up in "Marginally extra work for no BS win conditions is stupid because OTKs exist", even though we already acknowledged those were bad for the game earlier on in this very thread.

[This Account is Unplayable]

If cheaper decks are frowned upon then how come Dark Worlds and Heroes are good?