Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaighty

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

[img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120414005222/yugioh/images/thumb/7/7c/WindUpCarrierZenmaity-ORCS-EN-UR-1E.jpg/300px-WindUpCarrierZenmaity-ORCS-EN-UR-1E.jpg[/img]

[left][url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Wind-Up_Carrier_Zenmaighty"]http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Wind-Up_Carrier_Zenmaighty[/url][/left]

[left]Discuss.[/left]

[Βyakuya]

If Konami doesn't throw Hunter in the forbidden toy box, then this has to at least go @1. Wind-Ups can still probably function with it.

[Blake]

Needs to go to 0, honestly.

It's way too easy to summon for a broken ass effect.

Hell, before this, Hunter wasn't trouble and seemed like fine design, but it exploited the mildly bad design in Hunter SO MUCH that even 1 Zenmaity can loop, in the right circumstances.

Hunter still needs to go because it'll just promote restrictive card design, but this certainly doesn't deserve to exist at all, even if it is "fine without Hunter".

[HSektor]

Limit it and limit hunter. Loop is way harder with just 1 carrier.

[~British Soul~]

[quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1335651841' post='5927846']
Limit it and limit hunter. Loop is way harder with just 1 carrier.
[/quote]
i'd rather have Hunter @0 because you only need 1 to loop, but i agree with Maity needs to go @1

[Blake]

[quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1335651841' post='5927846']
Limit it and limit hunter. Loop is way harder with just 1 carrier.
[/quote]
Nobody runs more than 1 Hunter and just because the loop is harder doesn't mean Zenmaity is good design.

It's like Atums or REDRUM or anythign of the sort. It deserves to die because it's horrific design with laughable conditions.

Of course, it'll go to 1 first and probably won't hit 0.

[-Berserker-]

Not really a fan of Machines, but I have 2 of this and Wind-Ups are cute, so I would prefer to have a chance to use both before it being it. I don't care if they hit Hunter as I got it for a Polymerization.
Of course, I cannot say the loop is not unfair. I have done it some times and the opponents enters topdeck mode. The loop needs to be stopped, but the loop is not really overpowered without Hunter, and this makes Wind-Ups great outside of the loop, so Hunter is the one to be hit in my opinion. Rat is just too cute.

[HSektor]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1335652454' post='5927857']
Nobody runs more than 1 Hunter and just because the loop is harder doesn't mean Zenmaity is good design.

It's like Atums or REDRUM or anythign of the sort. It deserves to die because it's horrific design with laughable conditions.

Of course, it'll go to 1 first and probably won't hit 0.
[/quote]

We just need to make the loop less consistent. Yugioh is full of "bad design" cards, but banning them isn't the solution. Also, nobody runs more than 1 Hunter, but better safe than sorry, right?

Also, if banning Wind up carrier will kill the entire deck, not just the loop.

[Kazooie]

[quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1335665597' post='5928013']
We just need to make the loop less consistent. Yugioh is full of "bad design" cards, but banning them isn't the solution. Also, nobody runs more than 1 Hunter, but better safe than sorry, right?

Also, if banning Wind up carrier will kill the entire deck, not just the loop.
[/quote]

...Um, yes it is the solution. Chaos Emperor Dragon, Last Turn, Pot of Greed, these are three examples of badly designed cards. The solution? Ban them, try again.

Zemaighty may not have as big an influence as these three, but it's STILL BADLY DESIGNED.

...If a deck lives because of a poorly designed card, it probably doesn't deserve to live.

[El Majishan]

hit hunter, hand loop dies

hit carrier, deck dies.

The only issue with Wind-Up is the Hand Loop, fix that its just like any other "summonalotofshitandtrytogaincontrol.dek" in ygo.

[Blake]

Except no, because Zenmaity is basically Formula Synchron in usage. Stupid easy to summon and you don't lose a dime, and you usually make a dollar. 3 existing just promotes stupid abuse and loops, even without the hand rape. I mean, the only thing formula has over this is Tuner/Synchro usable, otherwise this thing makes Formula look like shut.

Hunter to 0, despite being fine, and this to 1. There is no excuse for this to be free at three, because depending on a broken card is stupid.

BTW, with the birth of Wind-up Shark, the deck can do a lot of other stuff without depending on this, this just makes it even faster. I'd ester have 3 Formula than 3 this.

[El Majishan]

Guess you missed the point I was trying to make.

Based on the meta, which is flawed as we know, most decks loop summon and exploded...the only thing that wind-ups do that the other deck can't is hand rape...with out Hunter its just another a loop summon deck that hardly loses advantage like most other decks in the meta.

While I am not saying that Carrier is balanced card design, keeping Carrier and hitting Hunter allows the deck to keep up with most of the other BS thats in this game while dealing with the hand loop...and now with the fixed ignition ruling..its not as derp.

At least it does not have 2600 and 2800 body like Red Metal and Atum.

[mido9]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1335683453' post='5928172']
Guess you missed the point I was trying to make.

Based on the meta, which is flawed as we know, most decks loop summon and exploded...the only thing that wind-ups do that the other deck can't is hand rape...with out Hunter its just another a loop summon deck that hardly loses advantage like most other decks in the meta.

While I am not saying that Carrier is balanced card design, keeping Carrier and hitting Hunter allows the deck to keep up with most of the other BS thats in this game while dealing with the hand loop...and now with the fixed ignition ruling..its not as derp.

At least it does not have 2600 and 2800 body like Red Metal and Atum.
[/quote]

>Implying any of the decks in the meta are in any way balanced,good for game or deserve to be playable in any way.How is hunter badly designed?And it there's no way to ever blame hunter for any loop that happens,the problem with anything related to hunter is the stuff making free fodder with him,not the crappy 141 send.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1335683453' post='5928172']
Guess you missed the point I was trying to make.

[b]Based on the meta, which is flawed as we know[/b], most decks loop summon and exploded...the only thing that wind-ups do that the other deck can't is hand rape...with out Hunter its just another a loop summon deck that hardly loses advantage like most other decks in the meta.

[b]While I am not saying that Carrier is balanced card design[/b], keeping Carrier and hitting Hunter allows the deck to keep up with most of the other BS thats in this game while dealing with the hand loop...and now with the fixed ignition ruling..its not as derp.

At least it does not have 2600 and 2800 body like Red Metal and Atum.
[/quote]
[quote name='mido9' timestamp='1335694456' post='5928204']
>[b]Implying any of the decks in the meta are in any way balanced,good for game or deserve to be playable in any way[/b].How is hunter badly designed?And it there's no way to ever blame hunter for any loop that happens,the problem with anything related to hunter is the stuff making free fodder with him,not the crappy 141 send.
[/quote]

Learn to read bro, I clearly said the meta is flawed and I clearly said that Zenmaity is bad card design....I never said that Hunter was bad design.

Again I will try to explain a simple point because it seems to be flying over your head.

*The meta is basically this "summon a lot of crap then try to gain advantage"
*Hitting Hunter deals with the main issue players have with Wind-Ups (The Hand Loop) while still allowing the deck to keep up with the summoning speed of other deck in the meta.
*Zenmaity does the same thing Atum and Red Metal does but at least its not sitting on a 2600-2800 body.

Soooooo to sum up....hitting Hunter and keeping Maity lets Wind-Ups keep with with the meta.

[mido9]

Why should wind ups [u]have[/u] to keep up with the meta?

[El Majishan]

why shouldn't they be able to?

[Althemia]

This should go to 1, yes. Too bad Wind-Ups suck right now and it probably won't happen.

[mido9]

<p>[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1335698276' post='5928212']<br/>
why shouldn&#39;t they be able to?<br/>
[/quote]<br/>
<br/>
</p>
Why shouldnt the game be balanced?

Because when they ARE they are OTKish and stupid. The ability of other decks to do the same does not suddenly make them fine in any way.

Your argument is basically "wind ups should keep the cards so they can remain competitive,screw balance".

Your argument:

1 - Undermines the game as a whole by giving deck X special treatment just /because we said so and i like that deck/,by keeping this card you are saying that making X playable to Y degree is more important in every way than the game being balanced,other decks having special treatment as well does not magically make that treatment in any way fine.

2 - Assumes that every deck needs to have brokesauce to be competitive,no deck needs broken cards to be competitive,only to dominate or be broke and there IS a concept of a balanced but playable deck ie quickdraw dandy,wind ups do not NEED zenmaity to be [u]playable[/u],they need it to [u]be stupid[/u],shark magician and other xyz spam techniques can still keep WU playable.

3 - Assumes that every deck deserves to be playable in some way,no deck in yugioh has ever deserved to be playable or will ever deserve to be playable,countless other things other than wind ups have been called for to return to competitive states,but have not,most likely for better,sometimes for worse,and wind ups do not add anything good to the gamestate with their competitivity,compared to heroes which can slow down the game or etc,why do they suddenly HAVE to be playable?

While yes,there is the mentality of making a deck as playable as possible,a deck should not become playable or asked to become playable to any given degree - let the matter of playability sort itself out. The whole idea of making a deck themed around Z is bad design in itself; Player ingenuity relies upon the playability of whatever not being decided by designers.


Neutrality towards cards is needed,we have to be ruthless and destroy brokeass stuff wherever it is,regardless of how badly we ruin a deck while doing so.

[El Majishan]

To Address point 1.

This is the state of the game, it has evolved into state where mass summoning is the norm, as much as you may not like it, that is the meta we play in and this is the current state of the game, even so, deck such as hero can effectively shut down these type of deck..the meta is currently made up of 4-5 decks, Rabbit, Hero, Inzektors, Wind-Ups, maybe DW and soon to be Heritics so it is one of the most diverse metas we had in awhile. Some decks are about speed and mass summoning while others try to slow the game down.

To address point 2.

At one point in time QuickDandy was considered "broken" due to the mass token spam and advantage it was able to maintain with Drill Warrior so that was a terrible example. As the game progresses power creep is bound to happen, that is why QuickDandy fell from "broken" or "best.dek" status..because better decks came along. Zenmaity adds consistency to the deck, the problem comes with HUNTER abuse...so why take away consistency when you can just take away the card being abused? And yes wind-up can be playable without Zenmaity, but not competitive in the meta. All decks are "playable" but not all decks are competitive.

To address point 3.

I don't even understand what you are trying to say. No deck deserves to be playable? Why not? why can't many decks be playable to encourage a diverse meta? Wind-Ups add a new deck to the meta a new play style and a new concept...thats the same as Heroes adding their own play style of +1s and slowing down the game state until advantage is gained. So imo the 3rd point you made is just stupid. The same way you have a problem with Zenmaity...its the same way someone can have a problem with Miracle Fusion which turns into a free 3200 beater that turns into +2 when killed, Gemini Spark +1 Shenanigans or "Summon Alius, set 4 go"

Why are themed decks bad design? thats just beyond be...theme decks are great unless they provide alternate win conditions such as Final Countdown. They add diversity to the game which is a good thing. Is making a deck based on changing battle position, atk and def stats or bouncing cards to the hand is bad for the game? last time a checked no one was bitching about a Shield and Sword deck.

[mido9]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1335705420' post='5928248']
To Address point 1.

This is the state of the game, it has evolved into state where mass summoning is the norm, as much as you may not like it, that is the meta we play in and this is the current state of the game, even so, deck such as hero can effectively shut down these type of deck..the meta is currently made up of 4-5 decks, Rabbit, Hero, Inzektors, Wind-Ups, maybe DW and soon to be Heritics so it is one of the most diverse metas we had in awhile. Some decks are about speed and mass summoning while others try to slow the game down.  
[/Quote]

None of those decks are exactly fine and dandy,just because it is the norm does not make said norm good for game,inzektors might be the norm,does that mean the norm is balanced?

Diversity does not equal balance,hieratics are a stupid deck able to throw out an OTK as they please,inzektors can go +4 or a free tiras and so forth,lots of diversity, though very little balance or skill.

[Quote]To address point 2.

At one point in time QuickDandy was considered "broken" due to the mass token spam and advantage it was able to maintain with Drill Warrior so that was a terrible example. As the game progresses power creep is bound to happen, that is why QuickDandy fell from "broken" or "best.dek" status..because better decks came along. Zenmaity adds consistency to the deck, the problem comes with HUNTER abuse...so why take away consistency when you can just take away the card being abused? And yes wind-up can be playable without Zenmaity, but not competitive in the meta. All decks are "playable" but not all decks are competitive.
[/Quote]

Quickdraw dandy was never considered broke for people who realized the concept of a balanced tier 1,march 2010 format pre TSHD was considered one of the best formats of all time because all the top tier decks were balanced,quickdraw dandy got mixed tops,but nothing nearly gamebreaking maxing out on 3 tops average with other assorted decks with it.

While yes quickdraw dandy was quickly outclassed by sabers,infernity, frogs and other diverse things ,none of those new toptiers were exactly balanced at the time.

The problem is not only the hunter loop,but the added ability to put 7500 damage on the field off one card in hand and any level 3 WU in the grave,even dealing upward of 9200 damage off opening shark magician with no other setup.
Wind ups can easily be competitive without hunter or maity if the other top tier decks got hit,with factory able to fuel +1s to cancel their occassional-1 xyzes,easy field control and toolboxing off the diversity of the extra deck they can access,and plays such as magician and shark giving them a free rank 4 and a rank 3/5.

All decks are playable,but to what extent should playability be is the question here.Should the power creep ever reduce the game to the point where a format's playability value ever be "If it cant OTK or get a +4 for free then it is not good enough for this format"?

[Quote]To address point 3.

I don't even understand what you are trying to say. No deck deserves to be playable? Why not? why can't many decks be playable to encourage a diverse meta? Wind-Ups add a new deck to the meta a new play style and a new concept...thats the same as Heroes adding their own play style of +1s and slowing down the game state until advantage is gained. So imo the 3rd point you made is just stupid. The same way you have a problem with Zenmaity...its the same way someone can have a problem with Miracle Fusion which turns into a free 3200 beater that turns into +2 when killed, Gemini Spark or "Summon Alius, set 4 go"[/Quote]

A deck cannot be playable if it would harm the meta or have to rely on broken cards to be playable,regardless of how diverse the format might be if it was playable. Diversity =/= balance,and balance is what makes an ideal format,not diversity,i find this format one of the most diverse in a while,but that does not excuse hornet,atum,REDMD,and all the others.

Heroes are slightly more balanced than wind ups in that they need setup and preparation to go off and when they do go off they do not OTK but instead just take resources slowly,and their +1s take significant setup,and their slowness helps to regulate the pace of the format if even a bit,so they are more -tolerable- to be playable than wind ups,which cannot do anything positive in a format.

[Quote]Why are themed decks bad design? Thats just beyond be...theme decks are great unless they provide alternate win conditions such as Final Countdown. They add diversity to the game which is a good thing. Is making a deck based on changing battle position, atk and def stats or bouncing cards to the hand is bad for the game? last time i checked no one was bitching about a Shield and Sword deck.
[/Quote]

The difference is that nobody decided for you to theme your deck around sword and shield,while with zenmaity you either run it or lose while it is legal and the top decks are still at large.

Last I checked, diversity relied upon building a competitive environment where it wasn't easy for anyone with a respiratory system to know what cards were best to run for certain things in that only good players know what is good to run and win for it and bad players do not know how to play X and lose for it,zenmaity's way of being an auto include in everything actually drains diversity and does nothing but make the game easier for players who would otherwise **** up and lose more,when you get something from zenmaity,you rarely have to dedicate anything to get it,and you did not WORK to have them, in most if not all of the card's competitive uses.

[This Account is Unplayable]

This to 1 or 2.

Hunter to 0.

It's not rocket science.

[.Rai]

Watching duels on DN, I've seen at least 15+ people Wind-Up loop without the hand rape. Not saying Hunter isn't bad design.

Zenmaighty should be rsetricted simply because it's +1s everywhere. Not so Wind-Ups die, and not for any other reason apart from bad design.

Keeping Zenmaighty just encourages power creep which is never a good thing. Get rid of Zenmaighty, and Wind-Ups basically become what they were supposed to be: a deck that had a uniquely interesting mechanic attached to it, regardless of tier.

[HSektor]

The loop is too slow with 1 carrier and 1 hunter, I tested it. |:

[.Rai]

[quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1335709721' post='5928293']
The loop is too slow with 1 carrier and 1 hunter, I tested it. |:
[/quote]

That's the point.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='HSektor' timestamp='1335709721' post='5928293']
The loop is too slow with 1 carrier and 1 hunter, I tested it. |:
[/quote]

But why should card design be restricted by a card that would only ever be used in loops anyway? Losing Hunter is the best thing to do.