Draw Phase skipping rulings don't intuitively make sense...

[This Account is Unplayable]

Yes, a children's card game. Where the competitive scene is mostly inhabited by people from the ages of 16 to 40. I see your logic there perfectly.

Children won't give two shits about rulings because they're just kids. The few of them that understand it understand it because they realise that the game is made to be looked at in the "thought" process of a machine.

[ranma1/2]

wait, am i on pojo? what is this...
vengevine is right, people are just overcomplicating what's the easiest thing to know.
NEXT IS NEXT, no ifs, and, or buts about it.

[quote name='Hatcher' timestamp='1343534092' post='5991524']
This is a CHILDREN'S card game marketed towards CHILDREN. The cartoon the show is based on comes at Saturday morning. But nope, "you have to process it like a machine". Get out.
[/quote]
i'm sorry to say this, but this has got to be the dumbest thing a mod on here would ever say.

to make this simple for you people, it's like this...
during your main phase (1 or 2) you play a normal spell card that skips your next draw phase, you finish the rest of your turn, when it's your turn again, you don't draw for that turn.
during your opponent's turn (doesn't matter when) you play a quick-play spell or a trap that skips your next draw phase, whenever your opponent ends their turn, you don't draw on your turn.

to sum it up, it's your first normal draw that you can't do. that's basically it.
if you still don't understand, so god help me, you're dumb.

[Sleepy]

[quote name='ranma1/2' timestamp='1343536271' post='5991548']
wait, am i on pojo? what is this...
vengevine is right, people are just overcomplicating what's the easiest thing to know.
NEXT IS NEXT, no ifs, and, or buts about it.


i'm sorry to say this, but this has got to be the dumbest thing a mod on here would ever say.

to make this simple for you people, it's like this...
during your main phase (1 or 2) you play a normal spell card that skips your next draw phase, you finish the rest of your turn, when it's your turn again, you don't draw for that turn.
during your opponent's turn (doesn't matter when) you play a quick-play spell or a trap that skips your next draw phase, whenever your opponent ends their turn, you don't draw on your turn.

to sum it up, it's your first normal draw that you can't do. that's basically it.
if you still don't understand, so god help me, you're dumb.
[/quote]

Except that absolutely everyone in this thread is experienced enough to already know what the official ruling is.
You are missing the point here.

[ranma1/2]

[quote name='Sleepy' timestamp='1343540561' post='5991609']
Except that absolutely everyone in this thread is experienced enough to already know what the official ruling is.
You are missing the point here.
[/quote]
i guess i am. what am i missing here?
yes, i'm serious.

[darkwolf777]

[quote name='Hatcher' timestamp='1343534092' post='5991524']
Get out.
[/quote]

You can use any reasoning you want to make it unclear. Its unclear because you want it to be unclear. When you take the time to understand it as to why it is clear, then it'll be the easiest thing ever in relation to the thousands of other cards out there. That's how I got where I am now in terms of knowledge.

Once again, I know what I know because unlike you, I think a little more about the subject matter and try to understand it, then find that a lot of rulings relate to each other. I don't complain about the wordings. I see wordings and their rulings, how they relate, compare them to other cards with similar rulings/wordings, I see what matches and works as a general rule, I see what doesn't and try to find the reasoning behind them, etc. Its slowly putting the pieces together to the millenium puzzle that is the Yugioh Trading Card game

Yugioh will always need a rulebook for specific card rulings because Konami will never explain the underlying GAME MECHANICS the handbooks don't tell us, so many things need to be explained and re-explained in different ruling situations instead of just explaining those Game Mechanics.

You're welcome to "Get Out", but i'll be staying here as i have been, thanks. Please make an alternate non-staff account if you want to sound stupid on the forum.

[quote name='Sleepy' timestamp='1343540561' post='5991609']
Except that absolutely everyone in this thread is experienced enough to already know what the official ruling is.
You are missing the point here.
[/quote]

Except I never once thought cards like Reckless Greed worked in a way where the "phases skipping" stacked. Maybe I was experienced with the game back then too, but perhaps not with that sort of effect where periods of time are being skipped. The issue just seems to be that our common sense and what we find logical are different. I've always seen "the next draw phase" as simply "the next draw phase" which is the draw phase you could have next turn. Other people see it as "well since your next draw phase is already skipped, using another will skip the one after that". I've admin'd and ruled more than enough on DN to know how people read the cards.

Again, its more than likely my technical approach on the game is why I thought correctly on how it worked when first seeing it many years ago. I can see Hatcher getting mad because he doesn't understand it and apparently what I say is a joke to him, but i'm quite serious in the what I said, especially about treating it like a machine. You need to change your mindset a bit and be more flexible if you want to understand it from the game's point of view, or I should say its designer's point of view.

Yugioh will never be understood immediately. That is a fact. I don't blame the cards, but mainly on Konami being terrible from the start about explaining in depth. Its about ten years too late to start things like "Problem Solving Card Text" and vaguely explaining the nuances behind cards like "Gozen Match". There are a ton of unwritten rulings Yugioh has that Konami has still never explained to its people. Its not the card's fault, but the handbooks for not having these basic rulings in them.

In any case, I feel "Skip your draw phase" being changed to "Skip your next draw phase" is redundant.

[werewolfjedi]

[quote name='darkwolf777' timestamp='1343544842' post='5991641']
bunch of stuff that is just stupid until the last sentence
[/quote]

seriously, the point here is that why is it that they worded so that it looks like you do the "skip" effect when it is played, meanining you just lost the phase altogether when you play it, instead of it being where it just sends the effect into the future, and waits for it, where in the mean time you can send more copies of this effect into the future to wait at the same spot.
this is what is the problem, does the effect activate/resolve now, or resolve later, causing loss of draw phase later instead of now.
OBVIOUSLY WE KNOW THE ANSWER.
but when you first look at it, and ignore all the ruling knowledge you have, common sense makes me think your losing a lot of draw steps instead of the stacking effect.

[darkwolf777]

[quote name='werewolfjedi' timestamp='1343549489' post='5991662']
seriously, the point here is that why is it that they worded so that it looks like you do the "skip" effect when it is played, meanining you just lost the phase altogether when you play it, instead of it being where it just sends the effect into the future, and waits for it, where in the mean time you can send more copies of this effect into the future to wait at the same spot.
this is what is the problem, does the effect activate/resolve now, or resolve later, causing loss of draw phase later instead of now.
OBVIOUSLY WE KNOW THE ANSWER.
but when you first look at it, and ignore all the ruling knowledge you have, common sense makes me think your losing a lot of draw steps instead of the stacking effect.
[/quote]

To you. Once again, i never thought that ever. Don't assume what you think is what everyone else thinks. If you for some reason think I knew everything since the game started, you'd be wrong about that too.

Again, what's common to you clearly is not common to me, and as I said, the problem lies more in the unexplained Game Mechanics rather than the card text here. You say its easier to figure out by changing one word in the card text. I'd say you'd be better off if Konami explained the Game Mechanics better so that many ruling questions wouldn't come up in the first place.

I'm stepping out of this conversation. Since you seem to be adamant on the whole "most people interpret things incorrectly, so everything should has to be written with alphabet refridgerator magnets and macaroni glued on paper for it to be understood by those people", there's really nothing to say otherwise =/

[Sleepy]

[quote name='darkwolf777' timestamp='1343544842' post='5991641']
Except I never once thought cards like Reckless Greed worked in a way where the "phases skipping" stacked. Maybe I was experienced with the game back then too, but perhaps not with that sort of effect where periods of time are being skipped. The issue just seems to be that our common sense and what we find logical are different. I've always seen "the next draw phase" as simply "the next draw phase" which is the draw phase you could have next turn. Other people see it as "well since your next draw phase is already skipped, using another will skip the one after that". I've admin'd and ruled more than enough on DN to know how people read the cards.

[color=blue]From IRL experience, it's been plenty of times that players I don't really know suddenly raise their voice in the middle of a Duel to say "so Reckless Greed multiple times doesn't make me skip 4+ draws? sweet!". It is pretty easy to misinterpret it.
To be fair, yeah, it depends on each person's common sense, and it's hardly a misinterpretation that provoques any conflict at all. It is as easy as asking a regular at a store that sells the cards or going to wikia to know what the correct ruling is, but it'd still be ideal if the root of this was also fixed.[/color]

Again, its more than likely my technical approach on the game is why I thought correctly on how it worked when first seeing it many years ago. I can see Hatcher getting mad because he doesn't understand it and apparently what I say is a joke to him, but i'm quite serious in the what I said, especially about treating it like a machine. You need to change your mindset a bit and be more flexible if you want to understand it from the game's point of view, or I should say its designer's point of view.


Yugioh will never be understood immediately. That is a fact. I don't blame the cards, but mainly on Konami being terrible from the start about explaining in depth. Its about ten years too late to start things like "Problem Solving Card Text" and vaguely explaining the nuances behind cards like "Gozen Match". There are a ton of unwritten rulings Yugioh has that Konami has still never explained to its people. Its not the card's fault, but the handbooks for not having these basic rulings in them.

In any case, I feel "Skip your draw phase" being changed to "Skip your next draw phase" is redundant.
[color=blue]I agree with the line above, because this is not between "skip your Draw Phase" and "Skip your next Draw Phase"; it's between "Skip your next Draw Phase" and "Skip your next [b]turn's[/b] Draw Phase". The latter referring to the next Draw Phase that belongs to that specific next turn, regardless of if another card already skipped it, since it's pointing to that next turn's.
"Skipping next Draw Phase" seems to imply that, if a Phase is already skipped, well you are no longer having that Phase next turn, and this card isn't really marking turns in the text so, next next turn's? and then next next next next turn?
Though of course, you already said you have heard people reason into that last one at DN so, it was proably a little redundant of me to write it.[/color]

[/quote]

[This Account is Unplayable]

darkwolf for god of TCG.

[-Berserker-]

This reminds me of the question I made in the Q&A thread. The answer I was given was that, according to WC11, the ATK of Bazoo is resetted even if the opponent's End Phase never comes due to the the effect of The World. That would imply the Phase somehow is counted even if it never happens. I don't know why they don't have a specific ruling for such an obvious combo. More specific rulings about phase and turn skipping would be helpful if I decide to run something like Swords of Revealing Light or Destiny Board in The World lock.

[darkwolf777]

[quote name='Sleepy' timestamp='1343571449' post='5991757']
[color=blue]I agree with the line above, because this is not between "skip your Draw Phase" and "Skip your next Draw Phase"; it's between "Skip your next Draw Phase" and "Skip your next [b]turn's[/b] Draw Phase".[/color]
[/quote]

Sorry, Sleepy. That's what I meant to put there. I copied it in incorrectly from the first post. o.x It doesn't make sense the way I put it.

I don't doubt that putting "next" makes it easier to understand for that case, but people assume/aren't sure of a lot of things about cards or the game itself because the core mechanics are vaguely or never explained. Sometimes its due to not reading the handbook, othertimes its due to not understanding the rulebook exactly as its written, and then lastly its because its not in the handbooks at all. Some examples being:

-Time where players misunderstood that MST stops the effects of cards it destroys
-Where players don't know there's still the Battle Step after Attack Declaration (though I believe it is explained that both players much pass priority to move on to another Phase/Step of a turn, so knowing that, I suppose it would make sense to both require to pass to end the Battle Step in order to start the Damage Step, but again its highly unknown).
-The breakdown of the Damage Step where "Immediately (without Damage Calculation) is during the 1st Step, Before Damage Calculation is the 3rd Step, After Damage Calculation is the 5th Step, Flip Effects are in the 6th Step, or that there are even steps at all. Many players don't realize there are steps in the Battle Phase, and that these effects activate only during that step.
-That effects where monster's destroy other monsters by battle's effects but without sending to the Graveyard (such as Jurrac Guaiba) activate at the End of the Damage Step, not after Damage Calculation when the monster was destroyed by battle, and regardless of whether Guaiba was still on the field or not when the effect would activate, then of course what cards can or can't be activated during the Damage Step
-Why we can't chain multiple Trigger Effects with the same Trigger from the hand
-Why there are Nomi/Semi-Nomi monsters and that they must be Special Summoned properly first for them to be reborned
-What it truly means to be "can't be used" (such as the differences between Prohibition, Psi-Bloker, and Vicious Claw)

It goes on and on, though most of my examples are based on core game mechanics itself. I suppose things about "Steps of the Damage Step" show more on the wording issue, though if you have a systematic approach as to the wordings on those (such as the Problem-Solving Card Text), those can be explained in the handbooks when attempting to explain the Damage Step "Steps".

As for Reckless Greed (among other cards), "Skipping" Phases don't make them non-existant. It was like me playing hopscotch with Yugioh Phases, writing with sidewalk chalk with each square noting a Phase of the game from Draw Phase to End Phase, and just having me jump over the Square that said "Draw Phase". I acknowledge that "Draw Phase" was still there, but I was not allow to hop into it. Having three people instead of just one (three Reckless Greed being those people) tell me that I couldn't hop into that square during the next time I would have a Draw Phase felt a little redundant to me.

As the OP had written regarding Phases, things like Reckless Greed would look like this:

I activate Reckless Greed on turn 2: [DSMBME][DSMBME][[b][s]D[/s][/b]SMBME][[b][s]D[/s][/b]SMBME][DSMBME]. The question is not many people see skipping as going over it, they see skipping as completly removing it and therefore the next Draw Phase you would have 3 and 4 turns later are the ones to be skipped. Again, people just picture it differently. Would it help to add the word "next"? Sure. Is it really the problem here? I don't think so.

I did mention (I think) that even effects like "The World" where it skips the whole turn still acknowledges the turn on the turn counter. You'd still add a turn to the game count, along with any effects that count turns, though i'm sure "The World" doesn't come in contact with "Final Countdown" that much to matter. Even this I only learned recently, though who would've known or cared to know until an issue came up?

[ranma1/2]

somebody make darkwolf777 a mod.

[evilfusion]

Why the hell is Pika acting like a troll?

Seriously, people mocking darkwolf about rulings? Darkwolf, possibly the site's best expert on rulings, who indirectly mentored me on rulings to the point that I'm considered one of the best rulings experts on the site?

Anyone who's read some of the cards can tell that the game of Yugioh is NOT for most kids. Not only are some of the rulings ridiculously complex or subtle (Summon negation, missing the timing, etc), but the game itself can be a mess to a beginner, much less a child.

Simplest logic I use for phase skipping: Skip the next X Phase relative to the card's activation. If you use Reckless Greed, you skip the next 2 turns' Draw Phases, regardless of whether you're already skipping them, relative to the time you activated Reckless. If the following turn you play a second Reckless, you skip the Draw Phases of the 2 turns following the new Reckless being activated.

[Sleepy]

[quote name='ranma1/2' timestamp='1343542323' post='5991624']
i guess i am. what am i missing here?
yes, i'm serious.
[/quote]

You seem to be under the wrong impression that Pika took that side because Pika doesn't understand the ruling.
This is not about we-people-ranting-about-the-wording because we don't understand them; this is about we-people-ranting-about-the-wording, stating that the current way it's written can very easily be misinterpreted by some unexperienced, and many new, players.


[quote name='darkwolf777' timestamp='1343582309' post='5991909']
Sorry, Sleepy. That's what I meant to put there. I copied it in incorrectly from the first post. o.x It doesn't make sense the way I put it.

[b]I don't doubt that putting "next" makes it easier to understand for that case, but people assume/aren't sure of a lot of things about cards or the game itself because the core mechanics are vaguely or never explained. Sometimes its due to not reading the handbook, othertimes its due to not understanding the rulebook exactly as its written, and then lastly its because its not in the handbooks at all. Some examples being:[/b]
[color=blue]
I personally am not defending the word "next" there.
The word next was probably put there as a foolproof wording so trolls and noobs don't think they can somehow skip their current turn's Phase when they are already in it, or if they already passed it that turn (though this last part doesn't really make sense to begin with). Anyways, I've never seen a that sort of effect without "next" as far as I remember anyways.
I'm more for the word "turn's" here. As in, used in the context of my other post.
Now getting to my point. The part of your post that I bolded, contains my goal here. Mainly the first bolded sentence. As long as somebody recognized that part, I am happy. I can't speak for the rest, but that's all I needed xD[/color]
[/quote]


[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1343610213' post='5992362']
Why the hell is Pika acting like a troll?

[color=blue]As far as I remember, from Pika's pre-Mod days, I've always seen Pika express in a somewhat agressive way so, isn't Pika just acting normal?=0
I'm not supporting or attacking here, just a thought.[/color]

Seriously, people mocking darkwolf about rulings? Darkwolf, possibly the site's best expert on rulings, who indirectly mentored me on rulings to the point that I'm considered one of the best rulings experts on the site?

[color=blue]I didn't read werewolfjedi's comments to Darkwolf, but I'm gonna suppose you are refering to those.
Rather than mocking, I think I'm gonna go ask a couple of things at that Thread in a bit (unrelated to Reckless) D= [/color]

[/quote]

[Legend Zero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4VbOHvaPRc

OT: I have never even seen anyone misinterpret this...do you guys play with [i]actual[/i] children?

[werewolfjedi]

I wasn't trying to be mocking.
and on another note I do play with actual children at the hobby shop, to teach them the basics.
and on that explanation darkwolf, I have to say, that is a very smart way of explaining it, I and do believe I will be using that myself from now, thank you.

[darkwolf777]

I didn't take anyone as mocking me, so there are no issues.

[Zowayix]

After reading this thread and thinking about stuff for a really long time, I came up with the following:

Using 2 Offerings to the Doomed essentially has the effect: "Destroy 2 face-up monsters on the field. [u]Skip your next Draw Phase, then skip your next Draw Phase.[/u]"

When it's worded that way, the ruling seems to make a little more sense, but still...


...now my head hurts. x_x

[Stan Alda]

[quote name='Zowayix' timestamp='1344538313' post='6002139']
After reading this thread and thinking about stuff for a really long time, I came up with the following:

Using 2 Offerings to the Doomed essentially has the effect: "Destroy 2 face-up monsters on the field. [u]Skip your next Draw Phase, then skip your next Draw Phase.[/u]"

When it's worded that way, the ruling seems to make a little more sense, but still...


...now my head hurts. x_x
[/quote]
Or how about "Skip your next 2 Draw Phases"? I could have sworn there was an actual card that used that exact phrasing, but for the life of me I can't remember it...

[Zowayix]

Reckless Greed skips two Draw Phases at once, but 2 Offerings to the Doomed combined only skip one Draw Phase together.

Therefore:
"Skip your next Draw Phase, then skip your next Draw Phase" = Skip 1 Draw Phase, officially.
"Skip your next 2 Draw Phases" = Skip 2 Draw Phases, officially.

[Dr. Cakey]

Let's step back and think about this logical-ahaha, oh god, I can't type that with a straight face.

I do not need the ruling explained to me, I understand the ruling. Pika does not need the ruling explained, she understands the ruling. The topic creator does not need the ruling explained, he understands the ruling. The phase has been skipped, but it still exists, it was just skipped. That makes sense. Kinda.

But, if I didn't already know this, why would I assume this to be the case? It's not unintuitive, but it is [i]less[/i] intuitive. Darkwolf understanding it proves nothing - darkwolf777 is an AI created to be the ultimate YGO judge, not a human.

[darkwolf777]

Beep.

[CrabHelmet]

Darkwolf's definition of good wording is "If you look up the ruling then the ruling tells you what happens."

[darkwolf777]

[quote name='Crab Helmet' timestamp='1344588195' post='6002846']
Darkwolf's definition of good wording is "If you look up the ruling then the ruling tells you what happens."
[/quote]

I suppose i'm just an idiot then. Alright, i'm done.

Please, Crab Helmet, continue to do your part to help players understand.

Please use the term "BKSS" in all your answers and complain about every card's text.

Might as well change Monster Reborn to:

"Target 1 monster (by declaring its name) in either player's Graveyard. Special Summon that monster by placing it in one of your free Monster Card Zones face-up in any battle position of your choice. You cannot target monsters that cannot be Special Summoned or if the monster must be Special Summoned first, that it has successfully done so before being sent to the Graveyard. You cannot activate this card if you are unable to Special Summon monsters due to effects or lack of a free Monster Card Zone."

Or maybe Sangan:

"When this card has been destroyed by battle and has been sent to the Graveyard, add 1 monster with 1500 ATK or less from your Deck to your Hand. This effect activates in the Graveyard. Only the player whose Graveyard this card was sent to can activate this effect."

or MST:

"Destroy 1 Spell or Trap Card on the field. The Spell or Trap card can be face-up or face-down. You can destroy a Spell/Trap card you control or a Spell/Trap card your opponent controls. This card cannot target itself. This card will not negate the effects of cards it destroys."


Anything to help clarify things without having Konami explain the common terminology and mechanics in the handbooks. In any case, have it your way.

[ranma1/2]

darkwolf pretty much owned you, crab helmet.