Agro Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Because we throw around the terms more than any professional sport does a ball. What constitutes good or bad design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 There's an article Griffin wrote in Written Cards. And MtG have three hundred articles on the subject, and it's practically applicable to all TCGs. The definition of 'good design' is actually pretty precise. Boils down to about ten or so points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1343844086' post='5994563'] There's an article Griffin wrote in Written Cards. And MtG have three hundred articles on the subject, and it's practically applicable to all TCGs. [b]The definition of 'good design' is actually pretty precise. Boils down to about ten or so points.[/b] [/quote] If the points are so precise, why not list all of them for us? I'm sure the readers of this thread would love to see all the points listed here instead of having to go look for those three MtG articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='Mysty' timestamp='1343844236' post='5994565'] If the points are so precise, why not list all of them for us? I'm sure the readers of this thread would love to see all the points listed here instead of having to go look for those three MtG articles. [/quote] Y'know, it's possible to ask without sounding so hostile. Honestly, for the most part, good design should be common sense, just recently Konami doesn't seem to have much. Like how Wizards didn't with quite a few of their older cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~British Soul~ Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1343844378' post='5994566'] Honestly, for the most part, good design should be common sense, just recently Konami doesn't seem to have much. [b]Like how Wizards didn't with quite a few of their older cards.[/b] [/quote] i bet that applies to many of the cards from Neo Genesis (i.e Lugia, Slowking and Sneasel the latter 2 got banned if i recall) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Is it a generic card that damages the game state? Arguably Monster Reborn. Is the card completely outclassed by something unless something breaks it? Such as Mind Control. Does the card cut down on player interaction? Such as Alt Win Conditions. Does the card make it so that you can just keep gaining advantage/free beatsticks off of it? Such as Inzektor Dragonfly, though mind you that Hornet is still worse for the game. Does the card do too much for one card and look like they just shoved effects in to fill space? Madolche Chateau, though not this alone. Does the card reward you for simply playing the game instead of playing it right? Such as Judgment Dragon. Does the card reward you too much? Such as Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning. Does it just shut down something non-specific stupid easily? Such as Royal Oppression, though it's arguably better design in other games. Does it break the limits on other cards? Such as Gaia Dragon the Thunder Charger. For flavor: Does it not fit in the archetypal theme, if any? Or does it just plain ignore the general flavor of whatever it's meant to be with? Probably missed some, but this is just off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I believe I wrote it in the Advanced Clause topic in RC, which has been deleted since then. I'll just do a shortened version of the points. These are more general design points. If you want, feel free to add balance, casual appeal, and competitive appeal as the 11th to 13th points. [b]> 1. Good design is innovative.[/b] Basically, design should bring something new into the game. It doesn't have to be groundbreaking, but it can't be stale either. It's what allows games to progress. It's also the main reason why power creep exists, but that's because it's one of those things difficult to minimise. [b]> 2. Good design has to have a purpose.[/b] This actually includes 'bad cards'. The purpose of them is basically to provide a comparison to 'good cards', preserve design space, make higher rarity cards more interesting, fill packs, and obviously they will appeal to some crazy person out there. On another scale, you have things like Duality basically filling in gaps in the competitive environment. [b]> 3. Good design is aesthetic.[/b] Design has to look good, from the designer's point of view. It's less important from a consumer's view, but the reason why it's important from a designer's point of view is because that's how they sell. They have to be simple to understand, and to the point, otherwise you're scaring away new players (and money, basically). [b]> 4. Good design is understandable, and helps you understand the rest of the product.[/b] Konami have failed a lot on this one, if only by making completely unattached cards inside an archetype. Then again, it doesn't apply as much to YGO, so this is not as relevant. [b]> 5. Good design is subtle.[/b] Here's a normal card. It's slightly broken so let's put on a completely irrelevant, and tacky, drawback to it that looks out of place on the card. The end product ends up being balanced, but weird and bad design anyway. A good designer should make design that doesn't puke itself onto the card really. There's plenty of cards where Konami have failed on this aspect, but plenty of others where they've done a pretty good job. Also, another point when it comes to 'subtle design', is that it doesn't obtrude into your design space, like how Rescue Rabbit is awful because it prevents you from actually making other cards that could be abused by Rabbit. [b]> 6. Good design is honest.[/b] In design terms, what this means is to basically not amp up your design for the lolz. Your audience will probably expect something, and the designers probably do too, but there will be plenty of cases where cards are designed for money, or banlists made for profit and rage occurs. The majority of a designer's design should be predictable design really. Links into quite a few of the other points. [b]> 7. Good design is durable.[/b] My favourite card when it comes to durability is Effect Veiler. I mean, there probably won't be a card that will outclass Effect Veiler without being awful, awful design. It will slip in and out of formats where it isn't needed, but it will never fall out of play majorly. Making durable design also prevents power creep. [b]> 8. Good design is detailed.[/b] The beauty lies in the details. Small adjustments into the details of the card can change it and make it so much better. I mean, i can think of plenty of abusable cards that are abusable because the designers missed a detail or two when designed it. [b]> 9. Good design is not in a vacuum; it concerns itself with its environment.[/b] There is no such thing as a 'good card'. It's only good when you compare it to another card, or inside a deck. Interactions are how balance exists. Rescue Rabbit is a good example. In itself, it Special Summons 2 vanillas harmlessly (apart from the fact it's a +1, lol). Then, put it into an environment, and you have Dinos to deal with and all sorts of abusable cards just round the corner. Bad move, Konami. [b]> 10. Good design is as little design as possible.[/b] Simplicity is good. Preserving your design space is good. What else to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1343846846' post='5994595'] like how Rescue Rabbit is awful because it prevents you from actually making other cards that could be abused by Rabbit.[/quote] Rabbit into 2 Beast-Types -> Revive Chain Dog Rabbit into 2 level 3 monster -> Leviar -> Grab Rabbit again, to be Reborn'd later. Emeral Unicorn Beacon etc Oh, but what do I know, I'm a casual player who doesn't use Rabbit for Dinosaur-bait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1343849177' post='5994634'] Rabbit into 2 Beast-Types -> Revive Chain Dog Rabbit into 2 level 3 monster -> Leviar -> Grab Rabbit again, to be Reborn'd later. Emeral Unicorn Beacon etc Oh, but what do I know, I'm a casual player who doesn't use Rabbit for Dinosaur-bait. [/quote] Pfft, if a deck's main combo relies on a free +1 that deserves to be banned, it probably doesn't need to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1343849368' post='5994639'] Pfft, if a deck's main combo relies on a free +1 that deserves to be banned, it probably doesn't need to exist.[/quote] Sadly, the metagame disagrees with you :/ Also, a "free +1" is fine if your deck puts enough dedication into it and makes it seem legit, instead of just playing a whole 1-2 cards to end with a +45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1343849740' post='5994649'] Sadly, the metagame disagrees with you :/ Also, a "free +1" is fine if your deck puts enough dedication into it and makes it seem legit, instead of just playing a whole 1-2 cards to end with a +45. [/quote] The metagame's wrong, obviously. The point is Rabbit's awful, even if manages to invent cool and random decks. It's still meh design, and obviously competitively broken too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 "meh design" is a bit of an understatement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I'll be honest, I love FIRE, but you'd have to be absolutely insane to call Rekindling good design. It seems to be so bad that they have qualms giving FIRE any more generic support (though it looks like they might get new stuff next set). The hallmark of bad design is how well it fits into combos, and while you can't possibly find all abusive combos, if one card gives you too much advantage easilly, it's either back to the drawing board or on to the banlist with it. Rabbit, Hieratics, Lavals, Inzektors, Wind-ups all have this problem: Many of their cards allow spam summoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Rekindling's abusiveness depends on how well you set it up. It has an implied slowness to it. Yes, I'm exaggerating the fact Lavals easily set it up, but still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 If the card offers nothing to the game outside of derp combos and loops...its usually bad for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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