Toffee. Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 See, the problem with this, is that its a double edged sword. They could print something like Dian Ketto that increases by something drastic, like 3000. While this looks amazing, and still being a -1, you realize: Everyone would main it in 3s, and it would just drag the duel on even further, [i]AND[/i] completely defeat the purpose of cards like Solemn Waring/Judgment, which follow a high-risk-high-reward pattern. Now there are other cards like Draining Shield, which, in a lot of cases, could do the same thing as this hypothetical Dian Ketto, but heres the catch: Your only negating 1 attack, your card is still a -1, and if your wanting to negate an attack, you might as well use Dimensional Prison. Then somewhere down the line we end up with Steelswarm Girastag; Although hes archetype specific, he not only clears the field of any 1 card, but he also gives you a nice 1000 LP Bonus. Seriously, LP gaining effects could be cool, if they had very minimal strings attached, and still managed to be a +0 in some aspect. So discuss LP gaining effects, as a whole, and how they could be implemented better without being pointless -1s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 This entire thread in RC: http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/291433-are-life-points-really-unimportant-in-the-modern-game/ And my reply: [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1350732482' post='6048803'] I'd like to compare YGO to MtG. In both games, pure life gain is considered a little useless. However, in MtG, life gain finds a use when attached to other things in order to basically provide you a larger cushion against aggro decks. A fairly uncommon card, but effective one, in MtG is [url=http://magiccards.info/rtr/en/168.html]Heroes' Reunion[/url]. If you translate the 7/20 into the 8000 Life Points of YGO, you get 2800 Life Point gain. Considering the cost on Heroes' Reunion, a completely free card in YGO giving you 2500 Life Points would be fair. So, yes, you could potentially get rid of that discard and keep it at about 2500 Life Points. Really, life gain becomes much more relevant when you staple it to something else. For instance, in MtG, [url=http://magiccards.info/ddh/en/23.html]Lightning Helix[/url] is removal + lifegain, which is why it's effective. One of the best cards of the current format is good because of its lifegain ([url=http://magiccards.info/m13/en/193.html]Thragtusk[/url] - because it basically undoes everything an aggro deck has managed). [b]Just[/b] life gain will never be good really. But, stick it onto something else (even if it's a tiny bit subpar), then it becomes a ridiculously good bonus. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 The problem with LP gaining...[spoiler=''] [img]http://ravegrl.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/118_noah_kaiba_pirate_face.jpg?w=550[/img] [img]http://ravegrl.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/178_dartz_close-up.jpg?w=550[/img] [img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070616002112/yugioh/images/1/13/InuKai.jpg[/img] [img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100816200858/yugioh/images/c/c2/Jose%27s_discovery.png[/img] [img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120322015060/yugiohpedia/images/c/c5/300px-Charlie_McCoy.jpg[/img] [img]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120908013453/yugioh/images/c/c5/Faker_body.jpg[/img] Is that it makes you very hard to kill.[/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhat Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 Adding LP gain to something is, in terms of card design, like making a monster a Tuner: [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Blackwing_-_Jetstream_the_Blue_Sky"]irrelevant[/url] unless the card itself is [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Blackwing_-_Gale_the_Whirlwind"]useful[/url] or [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Effect_Veiler"]powerful[/url] or there [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Magical_Android"]aren't[/url] [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Blackwing_-_Breeze_the_Zephyr"]really[/url] [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Light_Barrier"]better[/url] [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Kagemusha_of_the_Six_Samurai"]alternatives[/url]. I think the best-designed LP gain card is probably Thought Ruler Archfiend. Maintain your Life Points to pay for his wonderful effect? Thing is, most players won't trigger his effect at all, unless they can burn you down to 0 in the same turn and don't care about the loss in card presence. So it encourages clever play. For the Solemn brigade, you're taking a -1 to ensure that Warning will work, or to keep yourself alive. You'd be better off with drawpower to ensure that you actually draw Solemn. When you're talking about large gains like 3000 for a single card, card presence is still relevant; unless you can trade direct blows with your opponent, the LP gained won't win you anything. The average Deck maxes out around 13000 damage a turn with full Extra and perfect draws, so let's use that as the amount gained. Let's call this card "Sunbloom". Activate Sunbloom and you temporarily don't need to defend yourself. [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Swords_of_Revealing_Light"]In exchange for a single card lost[/url], you now have about 3 turns to gather cards in your hand and put a combo together...which means the release of this card would favor Decks that love complexity (Laval, Dark World, Chain Burn) and on the other hand, greatly boost cards like Spirit Reaper. He can negate the benefits of opposing Life Point gain by slicing off the cards the opponent builds up, and using Sunbloom with Reaper would prevent "swing on Reaper for game" deaths. Basically, it would focus the game on Card Presence even[i] more[/i], because now "swing for game" is an anomaly. Pick your poison: OTK Country or Go-Go-Gadgets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 One of my qualms about life gain is that a lot of stuff is usually life gain anyway. You might as well consider Dimensional Prison lifegain: because that's what it's doing. Gaining life, preventing damage. Same idea, different language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm not sure people would use a Dian Keto x3 card unless there were some combos with having a large amount of LP anyways. (see: Agents) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Life gain would be a very tricky thing to design, if you were to want a deck that focuses on it. Something about life gain in Yugioh, is that it gets you nowhere. Pure life gain is completely meaningless. As said above, healing is mainly used when it's nothing but an extra bonus. If the card does nothing but increase life, it will most likely not see any play, because the best way not to lose, is generally to make your opponent lose quicker. That said, pure life gain can pretty much be described as stalling in many cases. If you want something like life gain to go somewhere, it'd be (as said above), through cards like Thought Ruler, that gain Life as an extra bonus, and to fill for the extra payments you do for other effects. Personally speaking, I could see a sort of Exodia-like win condition achieved through having a certain ridiculously high amount of life (to sort of give pure gain a purpose), but we can see what people think about alternate win conditions. Also, that'd be a mechanic that if subject to inflation, can just be harmful to the game overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Games Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 There really needs to be more cards that trigger when you gain LP/have more than your opponent. Ancient Sacred Wyvern is on the right track. Would have been much better If it triggered when destroyed in general as opposed to only in battle. It'd be worth running the pure-gain cards because your opponent has a large beatstick staring them down that wont stay dead. Or A [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Ring_of_Life"]heal version of Ring of Destuction[/url] or a card like "if you gained 1000 LP at once, special summon 1 level 4 or lower from your graveyard" Really it shouldn't be hard to make cards that turn LP advantage into field/hand advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 There's no cushion against my decks. But Life Gain on its own is terrible, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-so-Radiant Arin Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 ITT: Soul Absorption Life Gain doesn't exist. That Deck is f***ing irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='みゆきサン' timestamp='1350963910' post='6051360'] ITT: Soul Absorption Life Gain doesn't exist. That Deck is f***ing irritating. [/quote] But here's the thing. 1) Soul Absorption has the potential for Dian Keto x500 just for playing the game. 2) Even then it takes up a space in your deck that you could use for more consistency purposes. 3) There is no win condition for getting your Life Points to 50000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Grapha Demon Lord of Sexy' timestamp='1350966696' post='6051418'] But here's the thing. 1) Soul Absorption has the potential for Dian Keto x500 just for playing the game. 2) Even then it takes up a space in your deck that you could use for more consistency purposes. 3) There is no win condition for getting your Life Points to 50000 [/quote] If your life is too high, the win condition becomes your opponent decking out =P I used to have a Pikeru deck, and I called it my "deckout deck". xD ..... it's a little sad, thinking about it u.u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masked Puppet Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='King%20of%20Games' timestamp='1350960843' post='6051345'] Ancient Sacred Wyvern is on the right track. Would have been much better If it triggered when destroyed in general as opposed to only in battle. It'd be worth running the pure-gain cards because your opponent has a large beatstick staring them down that wont stay dead. [/quote] Are you serious? Youre really complaining that ASW isnt better when its already a walking OTK? ASW is already an amazing card and youre a bit off your rocker if you think it isnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 In honesty, it's a really tricky concept in yugioh (self gain wise anyway), but taking advantage of your opponent having high life is a completely different matter (Hope for Exodia). However, the fact that decks have these extra cushions, like Girastag in Steelswarms and ASW OTK, there has to be a way of finding a middle ground. Unfortunately I think we don't have the right cards for that (I'm excluding Psychic Life Control because the deck in itself sucks or at least the versions I've played against) type of deck to "exist" just yet. That definitely is a topic and concept Konami should probably tackle in a "none-broken and well thought out manner", but most likely it isn't. My thought in general: It's something that's currently 1 sided as a whole...and the opponent tends to not like it (lol Hope for Exodia). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 People are perfectly happy to let their opponent gain 1000 for Upstart/Soul Taker so people will never want to commit to doing it themselves. Thought Ruler is a different example as it is also a 2700 beater/can't be D Prisoned/Compulsed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Chance Furlong' timestamp='1351016436' post='6051789'] In honesty, it's a really tricky concept in yugioh (self gain wise anyway), but taking advantage of your opponent having high life is a completely different matter (Hope for Exodia). However, the fact that decks have these extra cushions, like Girastag in Steelswarms and ASW OTK, there has to be a way of finding a middle ground. Unfortunately I think we don't have the right cards for that (I'm excluding Psychic Life Control because the deck in itself sucks or at least the versions I've played against) type of deck to "exist" just yet. That definitely is a topic and concept Konami should probably tackle in a "none-broken and well thought out manner", but most likely it isn't. My thought in general: It's something that's currently 1 sided as a whole...and the opponent tends to not like it (lol Hope for Exodia). [/quote] One of the most powerful cards in MtG at the moment is powerful because it gains life. To be honest, as a whole, I think Wizards has tackled the concept about 30x better than Konami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1351016622' post='6051792'] One of the most powerful cards in MtG at the moment is powerful because it gains life. To be honest, as a whole, I think Wizards has tackled the concept about 30x better than Konami. [/quote] Which is why I said it's something Konami should "think" about looking into. It would be kinda fun to have a Life Gain Deck that doesn't involve Hope for Exodia, other Alt win condtions or Psychics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Isn't Air Hummingbird OTK something to do with life gain? I'm ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Kabbles' timestamp='1351016956' post='6051799'] Isn't Air Hummingbird OTK something to do with life gain? I'm ignorant. [/quote] I'm counting that as an "alt" win condition without the "alt" part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderVolt Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 [img]http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ddh/9.jpg[/img] is there a yugioh card like this? It gets stronger if you gain life? and im not talking about stuff like Fire Princess. =/ and not stuff that passively get stronger. like wyvern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Chance Furlong' timestamp='1351016849' post='6051796'] Which is why I said it's something Konami should "think" about looking into. It would be kinda fun to have a Life Gain Deck that doesn't involve Hope for Exodia, other Alt win condtions or Psychics. [/quote] Hope for Escape is still only broken because of Exodia. Hope for Escape's drawback is a very real one. I consider it a pretty well-designed drawback too - conditional and build-around yet self-fulfiling and powerful. In a deck where you're using balanced removal, Hope for Escape just becomes quite a fun engine. For fun life gain decks, just play Toons and get extra Life Points out of Emergency Provisions (yes, I'm serious). Neo-Spacians are alright. Personal favourite is to play a toolbox of Field Spells including Savage Colosseum. Still, there's not much choice. I agree that there should be more. Edit: Oh, and I forgot Golden Ladybug. Ahh, my baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Umm, Ancient Sacred Wyvern is kinda like that I suppose, just gains for having more life, not for gaining it. EDIT: You changed the post and ninja'd me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderVolt Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 [quote name='Kabbles' timestamp='1351017491' post='6051808'] Umm, Ancient Sacred Wyvern is kinda like that I suppose, just gains for having more life, not for gaining it. EDIT: You changed the post and ninja'd me. [/quote] I realized immediately after i posted it that Wyvern and that one Agent got stronger for having more life, so i edited it. but i think Fire Princess is the only thing that procs when you gain life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Watch konami read this and break Dian Keto-*shot* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love of Ghibli Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 See there are only three cards that reward you for having higher life than your opponent ASW, Agent of Judgement Saturn, and Agent of Force Mars. So seriously there is only one and since this game is about "lifepoints don't matter" its pretty hard to make more life gain cards with that in mind. And for the record wasn't ASW OTK not about you gaining life but more like ASW just getting a direct attack off last? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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