Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I am assuming that the reason it was at 2 vs with ROTA is because it's Archetype-Specific, but because it has no Level restriction, and an Archetype is not necessarily much of a limitation, they are pretty much the same card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='Zanda Panda' timestamp='1351454168' post='6055819'] It's in the same boat with Reinforcement of the Army and yet, you've banned that. Free searching like that is considered bad card design, no? [/quote]141, I don't consider as bad. ROTA is searches an entire type. Convocation searches an archetype. That's the main difference between the two. EDIT: Alright, so now I have to decide on what to do with Gishki Shadow, Gishki Abyss, Vision Gishki, Zeal Gigas, and Aquamirror. I'm thinking 2, 0, 2, 1, 1-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 And you completely ignore the points made by myself and Blood... Like most ban list topics...this was disappointing.[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1351455973' post='6055850'] 141, I don't consider as bad. ROTA is searches an entire type. Convocation searches an archetype. That's the main difference between the two. EDIT: Alright, so now I have to decide on what to do with Gishki Shadow, Gishki Abyss, Vision Gishki, Zeal Gigas, and Aquamirror. I'm thinking 2, 0, 2, 1, 1-3 [/quote] So what if ROTA searches a type? It serves the same damn purpose as ROTA does in its archetype..."broken" is "broken" regardless of being arch type specific. One for One is just as bad...it gets a monster to the field and sets up your grave for future plays....come on man...at least be consistent when using your own logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='El Majishan' timestamp='1351464805' post='6055976'] So what if ROTA searches a type? It serves the same damn purpose as ROTA does in its archetype..."broken" is "broken" regardless of being arch type specific. One for One is just as bad...it gets a monster to the field and sets up your grave for future plays....come on man...at least be consistent when using your own logic. [/quote]Even if we were talking about One for One, it doesn't matter because 141 is fine. And ROTA's targets matter because of the general size of the pool of cards it can search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1351465098' post='6055979'] Even if we were talking about One for One, it doesn't matter because 141 is fine. And ROTA's targets matter because of the general size of the pool of cards it can search. [/quote] So you don't think being able to search any monster in your deck is bad, because overall it's not as broad of a search? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1351465098' post='6055979'] Even if we were talking about One for One, it doesn't matter because 141 is fine. And ROTA's targets matter because of the general size of the pool of cards it can search. [/quote] Dark Soul is fine because it only searchers Sabers. E-Emergency call is fine because it only searches E-Heroes....that is just terrible. What makes it worst is these cards get you ANY monster from that archtype without a level restriction...at least Rota has some type of level limit. Also what you're saying is only specific archtype decks get to have "add x card from your deck to your hard" while generic decks are assed out? By your own words special summoning from the deck is stupid......then you say "hey guys One for One is fine"...do nothing to hit Karakuri cards such as Bureido and cards that work in a similar fashion. Like I said...when using you own logic be consistent...or at least give intelligent reasoning for your decisions.[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351466162' post='6055995'] So you don't think being able to search any monster in your deck is bad, because overall it's not as broad of a search? [/quote] Argo is just being bad.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 [quote name='El Majishan' timestamp='1351466525' post='6055997'] Dark Soul is fine because it only searchers Sabers. E-Emergency call is fine because it only searches E-Heroes....that is just terrible. What makes it worst is these cards get you ANY monster from that archtype without a level restriction...at least Rota has some type of level limit. [b]You act as if all of those cards aren't on my list.[/b] Also what you're saying is only specific archtype decks get to have "add x card from your deck to your hard" while generic decks are assed out? [b]I'm saying that searching out a smaller card pool is better.[/b] By your own words special summoning from the deck is stupid......then you say "hey guys One for One is fine"...do nothing to hit Karakuri cards such as Bureido and cards that work in a similar fashion. [b]+1 From the Deck without P2P interactions is bad. One for One uses up card advantage. Not like it's not on the list either. And the Karakuri's are still generally balanced. Sure they're a +1, but all that does is balance out a general -1 Synchro Summon. Only one I'd seriously consider banning is the Steel Shogun, the other would still be @2. That being said, did it ever occur to you that maybe there were just cards on the list that I'd forgotten? Because it appears you have not.[/b] [/quote] [quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351466162' post='6055995'] So you don't think being able to search any monster in your deck is bad, because overall it's not as broad of a search? [/quote]No, I only say that it's not AS bad because the pool is smaller, though I've still been trying to decide whether I want all of those types of cards at 1 or 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Majishan Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 One for One does not generally use up card advantage due to the fact you are dumping a card you WANT in the grave. Your logic on Rota vs. its archtype specific cousins is still flawed for the reasons I've already explained...if rota is banned all cards that work like rota should be banned even if they are archtype specific since they serve the same purpose...card pool size should not matter. Putting Darksoul and Fultoll to 2 does not make a difference...a lot of sabers builds only play 2 trolls...and losing 1 Dark Soul does nothing since I have a s*** load of ways of searching it out anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Crouton Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 I am utterly baffled by the questionable, obtuse logic behind the banning of Reinforcement of the Army, but semi-limiting Fossil Dig, which performs the same task as Reinforcement but for Dinosaurs, and not even touching [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Flaming_Dance_-_%22Tenki%22"]Flaming Dance - Tenki[/url], which performs the same task as Reinforcement but for Beast-Warriors, and is searchable by other cards of it's potentially insane archetype. Why? Why? Seriously, why? That makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 [quote name='El Majishan' timestamp='1351468254' post='6056009'] One for One does not generally use up card advantage due to the fact you are dumping a card you WANT in the grave. [b]That's a bad thing? Unlike something like foolish, you actually need the card in your hand that you want to dump.[/b] Your logic on Rota vs. its archtype specific cousins is still flawed for the reasons I've already explained...if rota is banned all cards that work like rota should be banned even if they are archtype specific since they serve the same purpose...card pool size should not matter. [b]Card pool matters. If an archetype's card pool gets too large to match that of a type, then I'll be fine with banning it. This is one of the only cases of potential that I don't agree upon.[/b] Putting Darksoul and Fultoll to 2 does not make a difference...a lot of sabers builds only play 2 trolls...and losing 1 Dark Soul does nothing since I have a s*** load of ways of searching it out anyway. [/quote]Darksoul @2 is consistent with what I've been doing, but you're right about Faultroll, it should be @0 on this list. [quote name='American Machismo!!!!!' timestamp='1351469010' post='6056014'] I am utterly baffled by the questionable, obtuse logic behind the banning of Reinforcement of the Army, but semi-limiting Fossil Dig, which performs the same task as Reinforcement but for Dinosaurs, and not even touching [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Flaming_Dance_-_%22Tenki%22"]Flaming Dance - Tenki[/url], which performs the same task as Reinforcement but for Beast-Warriors, and is searchable by other cards of it's potentially insane archetype. Why? Why? Seriously, why? That makes no sense. [/quote]I forgot fossil dig searches a type. It'll be to ban And tenki wasn't hit because, as I stated, I'm not touching anything that isn't out in the TCG post-Abyss Rising. Shifting every spell that +0 Searches @1 Hanzo to banned. Faultroll to banned. Fossil Dig to banned. Steel Shogun to banned. Burei to Semi EDIT: Anyone want to remind me what other spell +0 searchers there are besides ECall, Dig, Seal, and that evol one? I can't remember all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masked Puppet Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 So Gear Gigant X Wind-Up Zenmaity Hieratic Dragon King of Atum and Bureido are @0 but Burei only gets Semid? lolinconsistency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 [quote name='Masked Puppet' timestamp='1351470428' post='6056021'] So Gear Gigant X Wind-Up Zenmaity Hieratic Dragon King of Atum and Bureido are @0 but Burei only gets Semid? lolinconsistency [/quote]Fine, I'll ban it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 This thread was a great read. Many laughs were had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveofSteves Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 Ignoring all the other comments because I don't have the time nor do I care what you people have to say, this list would make YGO unplayable and would kill the game. Congratulations if that was your plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spenсe Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 What about Block Golem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 >large amount of limit/semi-limits that serve no purpose but to murder consistency >restrict cards based on principle rather than actually being problematic (Vylon Element, Expressroid, Emergency Call) Are you actually trying to create a salvageable, balanced format out of this? Or just showing which cards rustle your jimmies at the moment? Because if it's the former, you failed miserably (although more in the sense of hitting too much rather than hitting the wrong things) Poor design=/=Problematic And I -really- disagree with cards being banned just on the basis of poor design, especially if they don't create any problems on their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Berserker- Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 How can you not ban The Flute of Summoning Kuriboh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Exa Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1351469280' post='6056015'] EDIT: Anyone want to remind me what other spell +0 searchers there are besides ECall, Dig, Seal, and that evol one? I can't remember all of them. [/quote] Karakuri Cash Cache. I believe it's a +0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 This list has so much hate. I <3 to be playing Glad Beasts though. Also...as said in the DN forums: "Machina Gadgets get around this!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 If you're banning +0 searchers I'd ban E-tele too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugendramon Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 The problem with attempting to ban [i]all[/i] problem cards is that you'll obviously always miss something that belongs to the same category as something you put on your list. That makes your logic look flawed and as such lowers the credibility of your banlist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I think the best thing to come out of this thread is this page: http://forum.duelingnetwork.com/index.php?/topic/43667-heres-a-banlist-my-friend-made/page__st__100 I mean...wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 you're talking about this, right? [spoiler=Quote: HyperJYGBSP] Dafuq is all this srsly you just doubled, tripled, quadrupled, quintupled the length of the ban list ... And dafuq is this...certainly you didn't hit every deck(now people will go mad).....and now the meta will slow to a crawl and people will now be maining 3 smashing ground and 3 fissure and whatever not to just poke you and blah blah blah. No really this is utterly ridiculous, you're saying that most of those things are outright broken to the point of banning?... Unlimited Duality? Great now people will rage. Unlimited Formula Synchron? Great now people will rage more Reckless greed to 2 you mad? Now it sucks even more And dafuq is with semi limiting all the more or less useful side deck or so continuous trap cards are you mad? Right...you hit X Sabers very funny. Unnecessary hits everywhere(gadgets to 2 SRSLY??), stuff like charge going to 2(umadbro?) and hitting nearly all the searchers(dafuq?) Great you killed madolches, happy now? And dafuq with hitting all those synchros, whats your problem(they're synchros anyway it not like it matters) And why reasoning to 1 it's perfectly fine at 2 isn't it? Geargiamor to 1..isn't that a bit excessive... And also what the fuq with grandsoil, recruiter, vayu, justice, marshmallon, tragoedia to 1? WHAT THE FUQ? You have a problem with call of the haunted? Mirror force is perfectly fine at 2 Warning to 1 are you mad? we'll all die at that rate, its not as broke as judgment you know. Also i see you hate stuff that slows the game(torrential, gravity bind please xyzs are everywhere,) Mind crush? Are you out of your MIND? Infernity barrier is perfectly balanced TG1-EM1...now that is simply ridiculous what are you thinking? Abyssphere...now really that is stupid. YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SYSTEM DOWN????? WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? Miracle and Overload fusion.....its not like Future fusion is at 3 or anything you know ........... Barkion limited....what the fuq its not even game changing Messenger of peace...do you really hate stall that badly? You ban Exodia, now all those cards can be burned. Sangan banned, but no witch of the black forest, now another card to burn cannon soldier, problem? you ban dad, it's not even a problem honest, JD you just hate light decks that can turn things around in an instant right? KALUT WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM BLACKWINGS AREN'T STRONG ENOUGH krystia, problem? Mirage................... Tour guide is okay at 2 already theres not point in banning it. You ban magician, now wind ups are dead You ban rabbit, now we can burn them too You killed inzektors, face it, we might as well burn all the inzektors You ban mezuki, why? You ban stratos, overkill. You ban Dandy, still overkill You ban cardcar and morphing, why do you hate draw power that much? You ban REDMD, it's already been hit at 1, do you really have to kill it? Banned gorz, great we're all gonna die to otks with trag at 1 Hyperion gone, agents are useless now Grapha gone, dw is useless now Seahorseman.....idk what da fu made you do this Expressroid, firestorm guards....did you even count when you last saw them and lost? Overdrive, now this is just stupid 2000 lp and it's not even easy to summon Diva, just go and repent in one corner already Temperance, great Prophecy just went to tier 4 Moulinglacia..........might as well not release it in the first place, save everyone money Thunder seahorse....why do you want to kill thunder decks(which are mostly tier 2.5-3 anyway) Treeborn frog...... Ronintoadin.. Pineapple? WHAT THE PINEAPPLE? Reborn.................... Royal Tribute, you just hate gravekeepers dontcha ROTA,oh great now we lost ANOTHER searcher Final countdown, there goes another win condition Pot of avarice is already severely limited at 1, why ban it? Six Sam United, Sams can go cry in one corner now Black Whirlwind...Blackwings are now tier 5 Gateway...Sams can cry with the other hits(alone it would be debatably okay) Launcher.DAFUQ Wind-Up factory, okay wind ups are now tier 6 Chateau, okay Madolches can all be burnt now Mind control, again are you out of your MIND? Card Destruction, you're just mad at losing to dws arentcha? Gyzarus AND Chimeratech fortress, you hit them and you also nerf them wtf?And this is atrocious by the way Gustkraken, now gishkis are dead lets burn them all Librarian...why? umad? Chain Strike..you're just mad that Chain Burn is so pro Vylon element right...like anyone uses it.. Salvage, okay we can all throw away our water monsters Rekindling, time to burn the fire monsters then Steele, might as well toss the gravekeepers into a black hole Zenmaity, rightttt like wind ups needed ANOTHER hit Gaia Dragon...Atum..Gear gigant..so what are we going to play now? Ultimate offering(debatable) ........ [/spoiler] I loled XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-so-Radiant Arin Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 [quote name='Chance Furlong' timestamp='1351604705' post='6057168'] you're talking about this, right? [spoiler=Quote: HyperJYGBSP] Dafuq is all this srsly you just doubled, tripled, quadrupled, quintupled the length of the ban list ... And dafuq is this...certainly you didn't hit every deck(now people will go mad).....and now the meta will slow to a crawl and people will now be maining 3 smashing ground and 3 fissure and whatever not to just poke you and blah blah blah. No really this is utterly ridiculous, you're saying that most of those things are outright broken to the point of banning?... Unlimited Duality? Great now people will rage. Unlimited Formula Synchron? Great now people will rage more Reckless greed to 2 you mad? Now it sucks even more And dafuq is with semi limiting all the more or less useful side deck or so continuous trap cards are you mad? Right...you hit X Sabers very funny. Unnecessary hits everywhere(gadgets to 2 SRSLY??), stuff like charge going to 2(umadbro?) and hitting nearly all the searchers(dafuq?) Great you killed madolches, happy now? And dafuq with hitting all those synchros, whats your problem(they're synchros anyway it not like it matters) And why reasoning to 1 it's perfectly fine at 2 isn't it? Geargiamor to 1..isn't that a bit excessive... And also what the fuq with grandsoil, recruiter, vayu, justice, marshmallon, tragoedia to 1? WHAT THE FUQ? You have a problem with call of the haunted? Mirror force is perfectly fine at 2 Warning to 1 are you mad? we'll all die at that rate, its not as broke as judgment you know. Also i see you hate stuff that slows the game(torrential, gravity bind please xyzs are everywhere,) Mind crush? Are you out of your MIND? Infernity barrier is perfectly balanced TG1-EM1...now that is simply ridiculous what are you thinking? Abyssphere...now really that is stupid. YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SYSTEM DOWN????? WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? Miracle and Overload fusion.....its not like Future fusion is at 3 or anything you know ........... Barkion limited....what the fuq its not even game changing Messenger of peace...do you really hate stall that badly? You ban Exodia, now all those cards can be burned. Sangan banned, but no witch of the black forest, now another card to burn cannon soldier, problem? you ban dad, it's not even a problem honest, JD you just hate light decks that can turn things around in an instant right? KALUT WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM BLACKWINGS AREN'T STRONG ENOUGH krystia, problem? Mirage................... Tour guide is okay at 2 already theres not point in banning it. You ban magician, now wind ups are dead You ban rabbit, now we can burn them too You killed inzektors, face it, we might as well burn all the inzektors You ban mezuki, why? You ban stratos, overkill. You ban Dandy, still overkill You ban cardcar and morphing, why do you hate draw power that much? You ban REDMD, it's already been hit at 1, do you really have to kill it? Banned gorz, great we're all gonna die to otks with trag at 1 Hyperion gone, agents are useless now Grapha gone, dw is useless now Seahorseman.....idk what da fu made you do this Expressroid, firestorm guards....did you even count when you last saw them and lost? Overdrive, now this is just stupid 2000 lp and it's not even easy to summon Diva, just go and repent in one corner already Temperance, great Prophecy just went to tier 4 Moulinglacia..........might as well not release it in the first place, save everyone money Thunder seahorse....why do you want to kill thunder decks(which are mostly tier 2.5-3 anyway) Treeborn frog...... Ronintoadin.. Pineapple? WHAT THE PINEAPPLE? Reborn.................... Royal Tribute, you just hate gravekeepers dontcha ROTA,oh great now we lost ANOTHER searcher Final countdown, there goes another win condition Pot of avarice is already severely limited at 1, why ban it? Six Sam United, Sams can go cry in one corner now Black Whirlwind...Blackwings are now tier 5 Gateway...Sams can cry with the other hits(alone it would be debatably okay) Launcher.DAFUQ Wind-Up factory, okay wind ups are now tier 6 Chateau, okay Madolches can all be burnt now Mind control, again are you out of your MIND? Card Destruction, you're just mad at losing to dws arentcha? Gyzarus AND Chimeratech fortress, you hit them and you also nerf them wtf?And this is atrocious by the way Gustkraken, now gishkis are dead lets burn them all Librarian...why? umad? Chain Strike..you're just mad that Chain Burn is so pro Vylon element right...like anyone uses it.. Salvage, okay we can all throw away our water monsters Rekindling, time to burn the fire monsters then Steele, might as well toss the gravekeepers into a black hole Zenmaity, rightttt like wind ups needed ANOTHER hit Gaia Dragon...Atum..Gear gigant..so what are we going to play now? Ultimate offering(debatable) ........ [/spoiler] I loled XD [/quote] [i][font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif][size=7][b]DUELINGNETWORK[/b][/size][/font][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Alda Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'm surprised (and personally annoyed) Starlight Road isn't on there. Based on [i]my [/i]principles, [i]anything that gets something out of the Extra Deck without any sort of cost is bad design. [/i]Cyber-Stein and Magical Scientist were banned for that reason, right? Yet Starlight Road is unlimited. As much as I hate to admit it, even Xyzs require a cost. Starlight is a Trap that gives you a fairly powerful (if outdated) Synchro for no real cost, and even grants a boon by negating/destroying a mass-destruction effect. The main weakness that I see is that Stardust can't re-summon itself via its effect without being Synchro Summoned first, but you can combine it with other lockdowns or use it for Assault Modes (specifics escape me at the moment). I've got plenty of cards that I'm not fond of, some of which are on your banlist. But it's better to ban/limit based on use/abuse in the meta (which can be objectively researched by checking tourney results or observing duels) than due to "bad design" (which is subjective and can be based on personal biases) What do you think about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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