Sora1499 Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 You can tribute dandy tokens for this, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~British Soul~ Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Yes, you can tribute Fluff tokens for Lonefire's effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dementuo Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I still want a Super... =( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 This needs to be put up to 2. I'm currently creating my idea of an ideal banlist and this is at 2 on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Should be at 3. GigaPlants is pro. Still one of my favorite 2 card combos is Lonefire > tribute Dandy. It gives you a Shooting Star Dragon and draws you a card <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Should be at 3. GigaPlants is pro. Still one of my favorite 2 card combos is Lonefire > tribute Dandy. It gives you a Shooting Star Dragon and draws you a card <3 I would actually prefer both this and Dandy to 2 rather than just this to 3. Makes Quickdraw much more awesome :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Should be at 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 This @2 isn't problematic this format... or probably last format either. The plant engine was consistent, but I'm not sure it's as broken as people make it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 This @2 isn't problematic this format... or probably last format either. The plant engine was consistent, but I'm not sure it's as broken as people make it out to be. Thank you, amigo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Should be at 3 All the more reason to bring Lonefire back to 3. Symbols is unplayable trash in 99% of decks, Lonefire at 3 would at least make it a viable choice to run in the deck, and it's hardly groundbreaking, just a slightly faster version of Call of the Haunted which is dead as hell if you don't open Lonefire and which only has 1 target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted April 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 [quote name="Superdoopertrooper" post="6173214" timestamp="1364784668"]All the more reason to bring Lonefire back to 3. Symbols is unplayable trash in 99% of decks, Lonefire at 3 would at least make it a viable choice to run in the deck, and it's hardly groundbreaking, just a slightly faster version of Call of the Haunted which is dead as hell if you don't open Lonefire and which only has 1 target.[/quote] Starting hand: 1x Lonefire 1x Symbols 1x Supervise And remember that all of these cards are searchable. 1. Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Tytannial 2. Symbols -> Lonefire -> Giga-Plant 3. Supervise on Giga -> Lonefire -> Second Tytannial 2800+2800+2400 = 8000 exactly Lonelier at 2 seems fairly ok, but 3 is just dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headmaster Monokuma Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 This shouldn't be back at 2 on a design basis at all. It's horribly designed, even if the targets it has are bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted April 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 [quote name="Judge Frollo" post="6173231" timestamp="1364786081"]This shouldn't be back at 2 on a design basis at all. It's horribly designed, even if the targets it has are bad.[/quote] This is probably true. While I personally would be fine with it at 2 (cuz plants kick ass, yo!), the design is pretty abysmal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Starting hand: 1x Lonefire 1x Symbols 1x Supervise And remember that all of these cards are searchable. 1. Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Lonefire -> Tytannial 2. Symbols -> Lonefire -> Giga-Plant 3. Supervise on Giga -> Lonefire -> Second Tytannial 2800+2800+2400 = 8000 exactly Lonelier at 2 seems fairly ok, but 3 is just dumb. Swap symbols with call of the haunted and you only have to wait an extra turn to do that, and you don't have to worry about Symbols being dead. That deck is also prone to very bad hands because you are playing a lot of Tribute monsters which when stuck in the hand are almost entirely useless, unless you want to play even more inconsistent and bad cards. That's also a 3-card combo which has an incredibly low chance of occurring and the OTK assumes no interaction from the opponent whatsoever and a clear field. Lonefires design is not abysmal, it's simply a characteristic type-support card. All types/attributes/levels have their own unique perks, this is merely one for Plants, which acts as a wildcard of sorts for most plants in the deck. The targets at this point are mostly mediocre, so it has no business being at 1 and should be moved to 3/2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted April 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Grabbing ANY monster of AN ENTIRE FREAKING TYPE regardless of level, stats, effect, and interactions with other cards without an iota of set-up or interaction is INHERENTLY bad design any way you look at it. Your only real argument you've given me against this case is "But they neeeed it!". If we had a lonefire for, say, sea serpents or spellcasters you'd be bitching that it supports the top tier decks. Stop being so dense or gtfo. I'm not even going to address the top paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airride Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 @2? Maybe, if they don't release any good Plant-Types that this can abuse. @3? No thanks. If it grabbed only Level 4 or lower, It would still be good, but not a normal summonable summoning thing. What do you guys think on it if it was level 4 or lower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Grabbing ANY monster of AN ENTIRE FREAKING TYPE regardless of level, stats, effect, and interactions with other cards without an iota of set-up or interaction is INHERENTLY bad design any way you look at it. Your only real argument you've given me against this case is "But they neeeed it!". If we had a lonefire for, say, sea serpents or spellcasters you'd be bitching that it supports the top tier decks. Stop being so dense or gtfo. I'm not even going to address the top paragraph. It can't grab nomi's of course, so that's not entirely correct. It's not necessarily inherently bad design either, anything in the future can be designed to not be able to interact with it if it's deemed to be possibly problematic. Lonefire is just a 'wildcard', it doesn't create +'s and it doesn't have any broken targets or interactions. It's just a good card which gives the deck a nice toolboxing ability. It's certainly no Rescue Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cute Rotten Yoshika Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 the only two main deck plant monsters this cant grab are phoenixian cluster amaryllis and rosaria the stately fallen angel so that means absolutely nothing because people dont run either of those anyways. its abyssmal design even if the current targets are lacking. i swear to god if this is gonna become a thing with you im gonna start getting mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 It can't grab nomi's of course, so that's not entirely correct. It's not necessarily inherently bad design either, anything in the future can be designed to not be able to interact with it if it's deemed to be possibly problematic. Lonefire is just a 'wildcard', it doesn't create +'s and it doesn't have any broken targets or interactions. It's just a good card which gives the deck a nice toolboxing ability. It's certainly no Rescue Cat. Yes anything in the future could technically be designed to not interact with it, but having it just say "Plant-Type" as the only real restriction makes it so that future Plants being printed have to be nomis/semi-nomis/suck in ATK/have effects from the hand, or those sort of effects that are basically cornering the whole type's design, much like Rescue Cat cornered Level 3 or lower Beast-Type monsters's designs, and Red Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon cornered Dragon-Type monsters's designs. It's just not a good move to make plants like that. Also, it might not be a + like Rescue Cat was (although it can be a + combo with Dandy Tokens for example), but certain details sometimes count more than just as a +0. Trishula was a +0 on it's own. OT: I'd like it at 2 for now. Plants need to be a deck. Compared to other cards this format, Lonefire is plausibly acceptable. By design it's still pretty bad. Special Summoning from the Deck in general is bad when there are good targets or the monster in question can grab another copy of itself. For the sake of fairness, I'd understand adding it to the hand, or requiring a discard cost AND still having a bit of restrictions, or something, but it looks like it was either a ) Gonna support a type they didn't (yet) plan on really supporting. b ) Wanted it to be abusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 If it was Level 4 or lower it would never have made a massive difference. Gigavise would not be a deck (but it never really was competitive) and Tytannial would be even worse. Lonefire's main targets are Dandy and Spore really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleOnceCalledGod Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Even if it were at 3, it couldn't compete with the current meta decks and how fast they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Heaven forbid that Lonefire makes level 5 and higher plant monsters playable. Without Lonefire at 3, high level plants will probably never see play. Hell, even with Lonefire at 3 they still didn't run them and Gigavise was never anything more than a fun deck. Tytannial and Gigaplant are balanced and the fact that Lonefire can bring them out of the deck is GOOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cute Rotten Yoshika Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Uhmmmmm, yeah I'm gonna need you to come in on Saturday. And also, if you could just unban all of the cards that would great, mmmmkay? Did you get the memo about the new meta? You see, we need to unban every card now so I'm gonna go ahead and ask that you do that now. Mmmm. Well, I'm gonna need you to come in on Sunday too, because we have a lot of cards to unban. Have you done you TPS reports? I'm gonna go ahead and send you another copy of that memo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Heaven forbid that Lonefire makes level 5 and higher plant monsters playable. Without Lonefire at 3, high level plants will probably never see play. Hell, even with Lonefire at 3 they still didn't run them and Gigavise was never anything more than a fun deck. Tytannial and Gigaplant are balanced and the fact that Lonefire can bring them out of the deck is GOOD. Tell that to 90% of other high level monsters in the game that will odds are never see play. I mean you kinda killed your argument from the start with the whole how much you love going from Lonfire to Shooting Star, without doing so much as providing any reasoning for it. As everyone has said, what if other types got this? Dragons maybe? Bad design is bad design, it's just the other resources around affect how good it actually is. You can't skirt around it being bad design. Bringing it to 3 won't make Plants meta, that's true, but again it's not going to make the game any better for it being there. The issue with Lonfire, in my view is not that it fetches any plant monsters from the deck, since I'm fine with that, despite how that affects card design, but it's the fact that it tributes itself. When this is at 3, for one summon, you get 3 card deck thin, with then grave set up. Now I wasn't around for Plants, so I can't testify for everything about how much of an impact that would make, but you can't claim that because a card is a +0, it's balanced? Because, well there's a lot of arguments against that. Really, dude. You keep making these claims for where things should be on the list with really flimsy evidence behind it. And also apparently little understanding of good card design, or at least a misguided one. I ask on behalf of everyone, please either stop, or come up with a good argument for the changes you're suggesting, beyond it's not going to hurt the meta. OT: Like I've said, I wasn't around for Plants, so I only know there reputation, which is that they were fun, but bork. From a design point, it should stay where it is. In reality, probably move up to 2 as a test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted April 1, 2013 Report Share Posted April 1, 2013 Tell that to 90% of other high level monsters in the game that will odds are never see play. As everyone has said, what if other types got this? Dragons maybe? Bad design is bad design, it's just the other resources around affect how good it actually is. You can't skirt around it being bad design. Bringing it to 3 won't make Plants meta, that's true, but again it's not going to make the game any better for it being there. I've already addressed that. If every type gets the exact same thing, then what is the point in having types? Not every type should have a Lonefire because a] it makes types non-unique and b] other types have much better support in the form of higher leveled monsters than what Plants do, which ties in with point a, and means that a Lonefire for other types would indeed be unbalanced because of the much better targets. You've also got really faulty logic with how the banlist is supposed to work. Cards shouldn't be moved up in number on the list purely under the headline of "making the game better", but rather "not making the game worse". Heaps of cards that were once limited like exiled force wouldn't "make the game better" if it moved to 3, it wouldn't change it all. That's not the point, cards are on the list because the make the game game worse in a way that requires a hit. If a card doesn't do that, it shouldn't be on the list, it's that simple. Mali to 3 does not make the game worse in any way. His effect is perfectly acceptable. OT: Like I've said, I wasn't around for Plants, so I only know there reputation, which is that they were fun, but bork. From a design point, it should stay where it is. In reality, probably move up to 2 as a test. There's no reason whatsoever for Lonefire not to be at 2. 3 is the bigger and much more important step because of the other implications it can have for the card, and indeed could be problematic in the future at which point I would be more than happy to move it back to 2, but right now it is fine to be at said number so therefore it should be. You can't say "it's badly designed or might break something in the future" because that could be said for TONS of other cards which aren't currently hit worthy. All the banlist cares about is the here and now, you can't convict a card for a crime it hasn't yet committed. If a deck with 3 lonefire isn't even good enough to keep up with tier 2 decks, then clearly it's not as problematic as what you think, regardless of what you say about design. The ultimate test is how a deck actually performs. If it performs badly, then literally nothing you say can contradict that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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