Dark Magician of Chaos

[Superdoopertrooper]

 

To 1. Banning this beauty was a mistake. Disc what little would happen if it returned.

[Wildflame]

Banning this was a mistake? Have you actually played Airblade Turbo to see how ridiculous this was in there? Are you aware of the infamous FTK that involved this card?

[Superdoopertrooper]

Banning this was a mistake? Have you actually played Airblade Turbo to see how ridiculous this was in there? Are you aware of the infamous FTK that involved this card?

 

I'm sure that 3 Stratos and Dimension Fusion had nothing to do with that. <_<

[Zauls]

OK, so I will activate Reborn to get this back, then get Reborn back with DMoc. That seems fair.

[Superdoopertrooper]

OK, so I will activate Reborn to get this back, then get Reborn back with DMoc. That seems fair.

 

Ok, so you'll have a specific limited monster in the Grave and a specific unsearchable limited Spell in hand. That seems reliable. And yes, that's totally fair.

[Zauls]

Ok, so you'll have a specific limited monster in the Grave and a specific unsearchable limited Spell in hand. That seems reliable. And yes, that's totally fair.

 

DMoc is searchable because of Spellbooks. Getting DMoc of Temperance gets you whatever you want back from the Grave and gets you a 3k beater. I think its a great idea to unban this and gives Spellborks even more brokenness...

Also I was just giving one example of a play you can do with this, not saying its the only/most broken application. 

[Dementuo]

Ok, so you'll have a specific limited monster in the Grave and a specific unsearchable limited Spell in hand. That seems reliable. And yes, that's totally fair.

Funny thing is, how many times to people draw Reborn in games today?
 It happens much more often than you'd think.

 

Either way, this thing can't come back, especially with Prophecies existing.

[Superdoopertrooper]

DMoc is searchable because of Spellbooks. Getting DMoc of Temperance gets you whatever you want back from the Grave and gets you a 3k beater. I think its a great idea to unban this and gives Spellborks even more brokenness...

Also I was just giving one example of a play you can do with this, not saying its the only/most broken application. 

 

If you run Temperance, you have to run Spellbooks. If you run Spellbooks with Temperance (which none of the topping builds do anyway), you will run The World over DMOC every time, for being a +2 instead of a +1, and also allowing you to nuke the entire field. It also goes to the Grave after it dies so it can be used again with Spellbook of Life, unlike DMOC who would banish himself. So no, Spellbooks are not a legitimate reason to not bring back DMOC. They wouldn't even bother with him.

[Toffee.]

To 1. Banning this beauty was a mistake.

The saying "Put up or shut up" comes into play here. If putting it to 1 would be that broken, then show us how it would be. Give us a quantitative mathematical description of how a deck with 1 Dark Magician of Chaos in it would even be remotely feasible, even in the most casual of circumstances. What is the raw probability of this card occurring? How susceptible is it to interruption from the opponent? Cards are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is on those advocating its ban. So far, no one has actually given a quantitative reason for why Dark Magician of Chaos shouldn't be legal. If you give one and it is mathematically sound, then sure, I'll be the first to concede your point and commend you for it. Seriously, it's just the same old Trooper topic of Him trying to justify something that can't possibly come back off the Forbidden section, due to the current card pool. It would be like saying Brionac is a balanced card, but being totally oblivious of the fact Atlanteans are a thing, and how Brionac has like 2, 3, infinite, loops that revolve around said card. Point is, Trooper's logic is always flawed because he picks Banned cards that would be even worse off then they were before, just because [Archetype X] was introduced, and would break this card to a point that's even worse then it was before.

[Sleepy]

DMoC still doesn't have anything good to contribute nowadays, except another tool for OTKing.

Yes it wouldn't the worst of the format, but the format itself shouldn't be where it is either. 

Let's talk in terms of hmm...washing dishes! if DMoC breaks a plate per day while trying to clean, but Elemental Dragons break 3 times as much just as often each, that doesn't make DMoC a good employee, just a less crappy one.

 

 

Is it "possible" that it could come back currently? Nothing would really surprise me.

Though one would think they'd first try to see how Magician of Faith fairs first, being a slower version of ~Oh so dreadful effect~

[Dementuo]

If you run Temperance, you have to run Spellbooks. If you run Spellbooks with Temperance (which none of the topping builds do anyway), you will run The World over DMOC every time, for being a +2 instead of a +1, and also allowing you to nuke the entire field. It also goes to the Grave after it dies so it can be used again with Spellbook of Life, unlike DMOC who would banish himself. So no, Spellbooks are not a legitimate reason to not bring back DMOC. They wouldn't even bother with him.

Reasoning for a card's banning/limiting doesn't require theory to be put into practice. So long as the possibility of an overpowering consistency with the card in question exists, there is no reason whatsoever for any questionability on the card's list position.

 

And one more thing I should say, as the resident Spellbook player:

The World only triggers off of being summoned by Temperance. It doesn't matter if topping builds aren't running Temperance, as that's simply a hive-mind that's been set in Japan. Builds that run Temperance alongside Justice aren't any worse than Temperance-less builds.

Now, since The World only triggers off of Temperance, that immediately makes it less appealing than DMoC, as DMoC triggers off of any time that it's Special Summoned. This includes Spellbook Tower and Spellbook of Life, as well as Monster Reborn. DMoC also has that nifty ability of banishing the monsters it kills, which is still an amazing disruption effect.

So saying that The World would be run over DMoC every time is a foolhardy statement, as both have their advantages and disadvantages. Assuming this comes back next format, Judgment will most definitely be either banned or limited. In the case of that, having a hand of 4+ Spellbooks whilst also being able to get The World out (With only 1 Judgment available) becomes much more difficult without either godhanding or going into late-game. DMoC functions the way it's supposed to from the moment you drop any Spell.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Reasoning for a card's banning/limiting doesn't require theory to be put into practice. So long as the possibility of an overpowering consistency with the card in question exists, there is no reason whatsoever for any questionability on the card's list position.

 

And one more thing I should say, as the resident Spellbook player:

The World only triggers off of being summoned by Temperance. It doesn't matter if topping builds aren't running Temperance, as that's simply a hive-mind that's been set in Japan. Builds that run Temperance alongside Justice aren't any worse than Temperance-less builds.

Now, since The World only triggers off of Temperance, that immediately makes it less appealing than DMoC, as DMoC triggers off of any time that it's Special Summoned. This includes Spellbook Tower and Spellbook of Life, as well as Monster Reborn. DMoC also has that nifty ability of banishing the monsters it kills, which is still an amazing disruption effect.

So saying that The World would be run over DMoC every time is a foolhardy statement, as both have their advantages and disadvantages. Assuming this comes back next format, Judgment will most definitely be either banned or limited. In the case of that, having a hand of 4+ Spellbooks whilst also being able to get The World out (With only 1 Judgment available) becomes much more difficult without either godhanding or going into late-game. DMoC functions the way it's supposed to from the moment you drop any Spell.

 

Being the resident Spellbook player, it surprises me that you aren't aware of the fact that World of Prophecy also triggers when summoned by the effect of a Spellbook card: http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/World_of_Prophecy.

[Dementuo]

Being the resident Spellbook player, it surprises me that you aren't aware of the fact that World of Prophecy also triggers when summoned by the effect of a Spellbook card: http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/World_of_Prophecy.

That would be a recent errata to the original effect listed, from the recent release of JOTL.

And yet regardless of this, my points don't change and still stand.

[Superdoopertrooper]

That would be a recent errata to the original effect listed, from the recent release of JOTL.

And yet regardless of this, my points don't change and still stand.

 

Your points completely change. You said that DMOC had the advantage over World of also being able to get his effect when summoned with Spellbook of Life and the Tower, which is patently false. Most Spellbook decks also don't run Monster Reborn, because it isn't searchable and has less synergy with the deck, so that's mostly a moot point as well. Finally, the ability for DMOC to retrieve non-spellbook cards from the grave is generally not that useful either, seeing as virtually all spell cards they run are either Spellbook cards or are cards which aren't that important or useful to get back anyway (upstarts, toon tables, and other techs).

[Dementuo]

Your points completely change. You said that DMOC had the advantage over World of also being able to get his effect when summoned with Spellbook of Life and the Tower, which is patently false. No, DMoC will still trigger off of Tower and Life. DMoC will also trigger off being Normal Summoned, whilst The World has a Special Summon lock drawback.

 

Most Spellbook decks also don't run Monster Reborn, because it isn't searchable and has less synergy with the deck, so that's mostly a moot point as well. ...Actually, the decks DO run Monster Reborn because you don't require another Spellbook in hand, nor a second Spellcaster in the grave, and you can nab from the opponent's grave, nor does it take away from Judgment at all.

 

Finally, the ability for DMOC to retrieve non-spellbook cards from the grave is generally not that useful either, seeing as virtually all spell cards they run are either Spellbook cards or are cards which aren't that important or useful to get back anyway (upstarts, toon tables, and other techs). Heavy Storm. Dark Hole. Monster Reborn. Book of Moon. Toon Table searches. Upstart becomes a free draw (again). Any other tech is just extra.

And none of this changes the fact that DMoC still isn't acceptable to come off the list.

[Superdoopertrooper]

I'm not saying you said DMOC can't be summoned in those ways and get his effect, just that you said The World couldn't be, which was incorrect, and therefore not an advantage DMOC has over The World. Also, you're NEVER going to normal summon DMOC in prophecy, like, ever. Or pretty much any deck for that matter, and if you do, it's a -1 anyway, which is fine.

 

Shriek lists disagree with your assertion about Reborn in Prophecy. It's not bad by any means, but not necessary and most builds opt not to run it. Decent personal tech choice, sure, but far from an auto-include. It also has little to do with DMOC either. If you bring out DMOC with Temperance, you wont be able to use Reborn or Spellbook of Life on it anyway because he'll banish himself. And if Reborn was already in the grave when you brought him out, good for you.

 

Getting back Heavy Storm, Dark Hole or Moon means nothing. Why would getting one of those cards back be a reason for not bringing DMOC back? All those cards are Healthy or balanced. I think you've got a rather warped sense of what DMOC's level of power actually is, he's really not that great. If you can get his effect off, you deserve the balanced reward it brings.

[Dementuo]

I'm not saying you said DMOC can't be summoned in those ways and get his effect, just that you said The World couldn't be, which was incorrect, and therefore not an advantage DMOC has over The World. Also, you're NEVER going to normal summon DMOC in prophecy, like, ever. Or pretty much any deck for that matter, and if you do, it's a -1 anyway, which is fine.

 

Shriek lists disagree with your assertion about Reborn in Prophecy. It's not bad by any means, but not necessary and most builds opt not to run it. Decent personal tech choice, sure, but far from an auto-include. It also has little to do with DMOC either. If you bring out DMOC with Temperance, you wont be able to use Reborn or Spellbook of Life on it anyway because he'll banish himself. And if Reborn was already in the grave when you brought him out, good for you.

 

Getting back Heavy Storm, Dark Hole or Moon means nothing. Why would getting one of those cards back be a reason for not bringing DMOC back? All those cards are Healthy or balanced. I think you've got a rather warped sense of what DMOC's level of power actually is, he's really not that great. If you can get his effect off, you deserve the balanced reward it brings.

I'll sum up my arguments in two sentences.

 

1) Shriek isn't the end-all be-all for what's good and what isn't, it simply reports what Japan is using to win its tournaments, which is a small territory compared to the untested US.

 

2) Magician of Faith is also banned for a reason.

[Zauls]

He thinks being able to activate 2 Heavy Storm or 2 Dark Hole per duel is "healthy or balanced". Lol. The balancing factors about those cards in the game is that, once they are gone, they are not cards that need to be worried about/played round. That is the part that makes them good cards for the game since they create skilful play.

And the argument that "There is a better card than it so it can come back" is stupid. Konami are releasing cards that are more broken than a lot of banned cards, yes, but that doesn't mean that the banned cards can come back. It means the new cards should be banned with them.

[Superdoopertrooper]

He thinks being able to activate 2 Heavy Storm or 2 Dark Hole per duel is "healthy or balanced". Lol. The balancing factors about those cards in the game is that, once they are gone, they are not cards that need to be worried about/played round. That is the part that makes them good cards for the game since they create skilful play.

 

No, that's just another way the game has been dumbed down. In better times, you couldn't just thrown down as many spells/traps as you wanted once you saw Heavy was in the grave without it still being somewhat risky. And guess what, you still didn't need to be a quantum physicist to minimize the damage an opposing Storm would do either. You shouldn't be setting more than 1 S/T card that isn't chainable to Storm unless your opponent control S/T's as well in which case you can at most get away with setting 1 more card than they have without going -1 if they have Heavy in hand. It makes sense for setting more than that to be a risk, because otherwise there would be no skill in setting cards, you'd just thrown 'em all down asap. Screw that, and screw having a green light come on as soon as Heavy is in the grave. After that happens now, the skill button gets turned off and you start throwing 'em all down asap again.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Skill is still a thing in this game?

 

I kinda can't believe I'm going to say this:

 

Dark Hole being used twice per game isn't actually that worrying anymore. More decks can bounce back from a Dark Hole than ones that actually suffer hugely as a result. So you can't argue hole as a reason against it really in our game state. It's the general consensus that Monster Reborn should be gone anyway, and it's commonly held belief that you can't defend or condemn cards by other broken stuff. Heavy is a bit more valid, given that S/T destruction is more impacting than monster destruction, and is probably the only spell card that be argued against this. Given that none of the archetype specific power spells that are an issue are either in archetypes that would never use this (Infernity Launcher, Gateway), or already have better ways of getting recycled. So Heavy is currently the only spell card that this is a massive issue with I think.

 

The thing about it getting NS being a -1, isn't it a +0? Since you tribute two and get this (-1), and then you get a spell back (+0)?

 

Surprised no one has made the argument that it's Faith on a 2800 body. I mean that's probably the bigger issue than it's targets, in that it's faster than Faith, and can actually sit around for a while, since 2800 is still a big big number this format. I mean the reason people say Faith can come back is because it's painfully slow. This is not.

 

I think the main issue for me why this shouldn't come back is because it restrictions design on all spell cards. Not even a subtype of them, but all of them. No single card should restrict design on something as as major as that. Now you can make the argument that all the cards that would clash with this probably shouldn't exist anyway, but it's still giving one card to much sway over the game.

[Legend Zero]

We have E-Drags, EVERYTHING OFF THE LIST!

But seriously, if the next SD is DM related then we might see a remake which could forever seal this. Or it could be a sign that this comes back (the former however makes konami more money).

tbh, I don't even think this would see play in SBooks because J-Day is so broke. That doesn't mean its place on the list is wrong or that banning it was a mistake. I don't have the knowledge of loops that could generate with this.

[Sleepy]

The thing about it getting NS being a -1, isn't it a +0? Since you tribute two and get this (-1), and then you get a spell back (+0)?

You are a bit too used to calculating with Extra Deck monsters always replacing 1 material in advantage. xD

DMoC would come from the hand so your 2 Tributes would be a -2

[Superdoopertrooper]

Skill is still a thing in this game?

 

I kinda can't believe I'm going to say this:

 

Dark Hole being used twice per game is actually that worrying anymore. More decks can bounce back from a Dark Hole than ones that actually suffer hugely as a result. So you can't argue hole as a reason against it really in our game state. It's the general consensus that Monster Reborn should be gone anyway, and it's commonly held belief that you can't defend or condemn cards by other broken stuff. Heavy is a bit more valid, given that S/T destruction is more impacting than monster destruction, and is probably the only spell card that be argued against this. Given that none of the archetype specific power spells that are an issue are either in archetypes that would never use this (Infernity Launcher, Gateway), or already have better ways of getting recycled. So Heavy is currently the only spell card that this is a massive issue with I think.

 

The thing about it getting NS being a -1, isn't it a +0? Since you tribute two and get this (-1), and then you get a spell back (+0)?

 

Surprised no one has made the argument that it's Faith on a 2800 body. I mean that's probably the bigger issue than it's targets, in that it's faster than Faith, and can actually sit around for a while, since 2800 is still a big big number this format. I mean the reason people say Faith can come back is because it's painfully slow. This is not.

 

I think the main issue for me why this shouldn't come back is because it restrictions design on all spell cards. Not even a subtype of them, but all of them. No single card should restrict design on something as as major as that. Now you can make the argument that all the cards that would clash with this probably shouldn't exist anyway, but it's still giving one card to much sway over the game.

 

At the moment, there isn't much skill in the game of course because there are incredibly consistent pre-fabricated combos which require literally no thought at all, you just memorize a simple combo and repeat it on turn 1 which generally locks out your opponent from being able to do the same. Heavy Storm however is one of the few cards in the game which actually does generate the concept of skill, because you actually have to think about what you set if you don't want to risk going minus if your opponent has Heavy.

 

Yes, Dark Hole is perfectly fine.

 

No offense, but it's amazing how many people fail at calculating card advantage, considering that the skills required to do so are taught in the first year of elementary school. Lets say you have 2 monsters on the field and DMOC in hand. That means you have three (3) cards all up. You then tribute your two monsters to summon DMOC. You now have 1 card (-2). Then DMOC adds a Spell from your grave to your hand (+1). You now have 2 cards all up. You started with 3 and ended up with 2, that's a -1.

 

I'm glad no-one has said that so far, because it's an awful analogy.

 

DMOC hardly restricts future design of Spell Cards either, and is certainly not a good reason to keep it banned now whatsoever.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Somehow I forgot DMOC would come from your hand. Which was... brilliant of me. Oh, and none taken.

 

The first sentence was more of a rhetorical question, the skill in this game is damn near non-existent. Even though Heavy exists, people still set multiple cards ect. Skillful decks nowadays aren't the same as could be seen as skillful a while ago. And I still maintain short of resetting the game, skill won't really exist again.

 

Though technically you can't say that because a card is -1 it's fine. Since that's irrespective of the actual situation in game.

[-Doodle]

Though technically you can't say that because a card is -1 it's fine. Since that's irrespective of the actual situation in game.

I agree with this statement. It's like One for One- It was a -1, but still a  very good one because generally you would get the plusses later on that turn. I think it would be the same with this. Though I don't want to be dragged down to this argument, I'm just saying something I think should be said.