Staples

[The Warden]

So, I had a rather interesting discussion with some noob playing Blackwings in regards to Staple S/Ts. He got extremelly pissy when I used Judgment and BTH on him, and called me a noob for using them.

 

So, it provoked an interesting question. If all the most commonly used S/T Staples were banned, what state would this game even be in? Cause, personally, it would be even worse than the March 10/11 (can't recall which) format.

[Superdoopertrooper]

It depends on how you define your 'staples' and how far you go with it. If you banned Heavy, Hole, Reborn, Judgment, Warning, Torrential, Mirror Force, BTH and so on, the game would be pretty skilless and quite bad from a competitive standpoint.

 

And March '11 was the "Set 5, go" format.

[vla1ne]

It depends on how you define your 'staples' and how far you go with it. If you banned Heavy, Hole, Reborn, Judgment, Warning, Torrential, Mirror Force, BTH and so on, the game would be pretty skilless and quite bad from a competitive standpoint.

 

And March '11 was the "Set 5, go" format.

I think that if you banned the top Spell/Trap staples, it would force people to get really creative with their prevention, it might actually be fun to attempt for one list format depending on what decks got hit beforehand. you never know, it might cause some cards that are at the bottom in terms of usefulness and pricing to fly to the top really fast.

 

It's a different idea for sure, and done right it could make the game really interesting. I'd love to see the kind of spells/traps that come back from obscurity.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

You can't just hit staples, you'd have to hit decks too. If we'd do that...well things just go haywire from there.

[vla1ne]

that's my point, just for one format, hit EVERYTHING that might have relevance!! and watch chaos ensue as meta decks and even the tier twos get beaten down by the decks that never had their turn in the sun.

 

I'm not saying try this to balance the game, I'm saying doing it once every few years would give lower classed decks a turn to shine, and it would make that format the most unpredictable one ever.

 

Just to make a point; when do you have more fun in a duel? during longer, more drawn out matches where both players are putting every card they have to hard use, or during quicker matches, where one person just runs the other person over?

That's what I'm trying to say when I advocate the occasional banning of all power staples and the tier one key engines, try to imagine a format where anything can happen in a duel, and where victory is decided by setting up, and using the full extent of your deck. Not by whoever draws a better first hand.

I know it wont ever happen, but that's why it makes me happy to think about it.

[Sunshine Jesse]

I have nothing wrong with staples and don't feel as if they're bad for the game; as a matter of fact I believe that, in moderation, they're actually -really- good for it.

 

I mean as a concept, though, not specifically speaking of the ones we have now.

 

You can't just hit staples, you'd have to hit decks too. If we'd do that...well things just go haywire from there.

i don't understand

[Strider Tigerwolf]

E-Dragons.

Inzektors

Dark Worlds

 

without staples, they can be pretty devestating if left unchecked, and those are just a few

 

Oh and Spellbooks run what staples?

[vla1ne]

E-Dragons.

Inzektors

Dark Worlds

 

without staples, they can be pretty devestating if left unchecked, and those are just a few

 

Oh and Spellbooks run what staples?

E-dragons, already need serious balancing, inzectors (in my experience) go down in threat level once hornet is taken care of, and dark worlds can be countered by some of the more obscure cards in yu-gi-oh like debunk (although, they could still be somewhat of a problem) 

Spellbooks don't run staples, but they also need a few things restricted, and there's a lot of cards that can kill the deck that have been forgotten about because there are better means to do it (spell canceller says hi ). that's why I say try it for a format, you never know what old card and new combos could arise from the wreckage of the bottom tiers.

[Airride]

People would find things to replace said staples.

Or just run Monster Mash...

[vla1ne]

People would find things to replace said staples.

Or just run Monster Mash...

That's my point! The current staples vastly overshadow the far wider pool of cards available. but without them, the game would become amazingly unpredictable in terms of generic deck support.

 

There's nothing wrong with staples themselves, I'm not hating on them, but if they were lost for just one format, I believe the game would become far more reliant on setting up for invested moves.

There would once again be a need for setting up moves instead of just having them mostly play out for you.

I have no illusions though, it wont happen that way, but it's still just a fun idea.

[newhat]

Staples are good for reversing games. Except for Lance, which is more of a snowball card. I wish Lance wasn't a thing.

[Sunshine Jesse]

E-Dragons.

Inzektors

Dark Worlds

 

without staples, they can be pretty devestating if left unchecked, and those are just a few

I'm actually interested in hearing more in-depth logic on this. Could you explain better? I don't see how staples (or lackthereof) affect those decks much, barring MST for Inzektors and maybe for DWs.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

E-Drags are basically spam deck. Staples or no Staples they're a deck that can and probably will run over anything just because they'd feel like it and are horribly designed despite the fact you can only use 1 of their effects per turn, and LaDD first turn is pretty much gg in this type of format.

 

Inzektors were (and still are) an epitome of bad design. The fact that they'd still have Hornet+Dragonfly is so lulzy that several decks can suffer from those types of plays. Pop + Special Summon -> Repeat? No ty, and the fact that we won't have at the very least some staples to get around them or turn games around (like lol Reborn/Dark Hole, etc), it can lead to 1-sided games, and that's not fun.

 

Dark Worlds aren't as big, but a recurring Beatstick can be (even though it'd be predictable and moderate to counter against) bad for the game/format and again, can lead to 1-sided games unless you can get around him. A similar argument can be said about War Gods/Bujin since they really only need 1 monster on the field + support, most of which doesn't even need to come from staples except maybe Forbidden Lance, and even then they have their own more consistent lance in the form of Hetsuka.

 

Other decks that could pose a problem are:

 

Crystal Beasts (lack of Spell/Trap removal means they could set up far more easily)

Lightsworns (There will be less options against cards like JD)

Machina/Geargia/Karakuri (Again, less things to stop these).

 

Bottomless, Lance, Dark Hole, Reborn, MST, Heavy, etc, are some of the main things that aid us counter decks/plays/strategies that certain deck-Types make. Removing that means that decks will be more difficult to stop or near-to-impossible to prevent from happening. If I can't stop my opponent from going "Abundance OTK", "JD OTK", "Machine Spam OTK", "E-Drag Spam lock/OTK", etc, then is it really worth playing in such a format? I would think you'd have to hit not just all staples, but several and maybe even all decks to warrant some form of even ground for everyone.

[Superdoopertrooper]

To put it simply, getting rid of the so-called "staples" (a more accurate term would be "strong generic cards") doesn't change whether or not the game is going to be bad. Broken archetypes are what have run this game into the grave, so hitting measly little Spell and Traps like Bottomless, MST and things like that is asinine compared to what should be happening.

 

And as an example of this, the game would be much better off if Pot of Greed came back, but E-Dragons, Prophecy and Mermails and Fire Fist were destroyed. PoG would be an auto-staple, but at the end of the day it's still greatly preferable to have it back than to have hugely more broken Archetypes ruining everything. I'd trade those dumb decks for PoG any day.

[vla1ne]

To put it simply, getting rid of the so-called "staples" (a more accurate term would be "strong generic cards") doesn't change whether or not the game is going to be bad. Broken archetypes are what have run this game into the grave, so hitting measly little Spell and Traps like Bottomless, MST and things like that is asinine compared to what should be happening.

 

And as an example of this, the game would be much better off if Pot of Greed came back, but E-Dragons, Prophecy and Mermails and Fire Fist were destroyed. PoG would be an auto-staple, but at the end of the day it's still greatly preferable to have it back than to have hugely more broken Archetypes ruining everything. I'd trade those dumb decks for PoG any day.

this.

 

The game really needs to be remodeled in some way, like the starting LP count getting increased to 10,000 instead of 8000 because of the amount of 1st and 2nd turn OTK's that now exist. its really becoming hard not to notice the effect that the major decks are having on the game, even if you don't play tournaments. if the basic framework of game itself isn't remodeled, then nothing is going to get better.

instead of just upping the limited-banlist, there needs to be major changes done to the core of the game itself, that core being the mechanics of the game.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

if the basic framework of game itself isn't remodeled, then nothing is going to get better.

instead of just upping the limited-banlist, there needs to be major changes done to the core of the game itself, that core being the mechanics of the game.

 

Basically, this.

[Kazooie]

Basically, this.

 

God no, your format is legitimately awful. Not the worst format on YCM, but still really bad.

 

As for banning staples, you really can't just ban them. If you choose to hit the meta decks as well, this doesn't necessarily mean that some of the undermeta decks will have a chance. Hitting the staples alone won't do anything to improve the game, E-Dragons will still first turn LADD + Drago, still be able to steal all your monsters if you live past that. Spellbooks will be pretty much unhit, Mermails might be hurt a little, but they'll still live and be able to wreck shit.

 

Of course, if you hit those decks, then sure. Of course, what happens without Heavy Storm is Set-5-Pass formats, which aren't fun. I can't say I like the idea behind this format in the least really. Most of the staple cards are fine where they're at, except Reborn really which should be banned.

 

I think that since he didn't specify hitting the top decks, this format is a completely awful idea. Hitting the top decks, it's less stupid but still leads to awful formats.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

As for banning staples, you really can't just ban them. If you choose to hit the meta decks as well, this doesn't necessarily mean that some of the undermeta decks will have a chance. Hitting the staples alone won't do anything to improve the game, E-Dragons will still first turn LADD + Drago, still be able to steal all your monsters if you live past that. Spellbooks will be pretty much unhit, Mermails might be hurt a little, but they'll still live and be able to wreck shit.

 

Of course, if you hit those decks, then sure. Of course, what happens without Heavy Storm is Set-5-Pass formats, which aren't fun. I can't say I like the idea behind this format in the least really. Most of the staple cards are fine where they're at, except Reborn really which should be banned.

 

I think that since he didn't specify hitting the top decks, this format is a completely awful idea. Hitting the top decks, it's less stupid but still leads to awful formats.

You've pretty much agreed with me in all of this.

 

And have you even tried Chance Format?

[Agro]

You've pretty much agreed with me in all of this.

 

And have you even tried Chance Format?

No she didn't.

 

And I have. It's pretty bad.