Pass me the Stapler, will you? [Staples]

[Sleepy]

I know, I know. Having a "discuss staples" thread is not the smartest idea.

I'm creating this with no idea of how much there is actually to discuss on the subject, but I'll take my chances and see how it turns out.

 

Discuss the concept of staples, and I don't mean "Discuss Monster Reborn, Dark Hole, MST..."

I mean the concept of staples. Are they a good or bad thing for any TCG? Or what's the right amount for it? What are bad/good design examples for them?

 

Their existence helps the "predicting" factor of the game to be a thing. Kinda.

Though, at least in Yugioh, Staples tend to overshadow hundreds of other effects in the game, creating the state of "100 crap effects / 1 good staple that makes those worthless". Staples also often need list attention (from 0 to 2, I don't just mean banned), which says a lot about their design on itself.

 

Huh.... IDK what else people could say about the subject.

Opinions, additions, counter-arguments, whatever. Speak your mind.

 

 

 

You can even talk as a game designer here.

You are given the task of re-creating Yugioh or starting a new TCG. Or you are given the task to replace staples and stuff.

[/Trying too hard to generate some kind of discussion here(?)]

 

:D

[Toffee.]

Personally, as far as "bad design" goes, Dark Hole comes to mind.
I mean, understand the mentality of it, and how it punishes your Opponent for over-extending- But here's the thing... By the end of the day it's still basically a Raigeki. I mean, lets be realistic for a second; Who is going to drop this when they have monsters out? Unless your playing something like Rulers, which won't care if they Dark Hole themselves(But who does that anyway?), but that point is moot anyway. What I'm saying, is that nobody can properly judge the difference between punishing someone for filling their field, actually playing the game, or just dropping Dark Hole "just because". I mean, who's to say they play a deck that's only capable of preforming a single Normal Summon for the turn as a means of getting monsters to the field; How can you justify "They overextended", when they were just playing the game like it was supposed to? What, are people just not allowed to have monsters on the field anymore? I mean, yes, this is different from, oh, say, Samurais(for example) who can throw their hand onto the field; Dark Hole clears that, and punishes them for not managing their resources, because they lacked the ability to push for game that turn in an efficient manner, and just overall got too cocky. Then, you know, you have your typical jackass who Dark Holes your Set monster just cuz' they can, only to finish their turn poorly by Setting 1 monster and ending; Waste of resources.

tl;dr: Dark Hole to 3. /sarcasm

[Lonk]

With how I look at it, Staples are simultaneously good and bad for the game.  I'm going to start off with why they are bad:

 

They are bad because they do not promote deck design.  Because of the law of staples, a player either has to put them into their Deck or that Deck would be considered awful for breaking the normative situation.  It also restricts the space of what a Deck can normally have as well.  Before the TCG Banlist, literally 1/4th of most Decks would have been dedicated towards Staple cards just because there were too many of them.  This practically destroyed the potential of most Decks due to how prevalent staples were.

 

And now for the good:  Staples are generic ways to provide cover for a Deck that normally would not have access to them.  For the sake of this point, I'm also including banned cards that were staples.  Need generic draw power?  Pot of Greed and Upstart were the cards to go to.  Need generic monster removal?  Torrential Tribute and Dark Hole.  Need generic S/T removal?  Get on with that MST and Harpie's Feather Duster.  Need to revive a monster?  What better way than with Premature Burial and Monster Reborn.  Need some generic negation?  Solemn Judgment will always have your back.

 

All staples have been hit by the list in some way now and in the past because they were very useful in their context.  However, the fact that they were generic AND powerful goes back into the bad point that they do not promote Deck Design.  Literally, there were Decks made that revolved around nothing but staples and techs, hence the Staple.Dek that was dubbed.  Because of both the good points and bad points of staples, anything that sees a huge surge in general use would be put on the banlist by Konami, sometimes even if it was a well-designed card (Pot of Duality).

[Delibirb]

I personally would'nt mind the end of Staples, and am not unhappy seeing Konami's recent attacks on the biguns (Heavy, Reborn, etc).

 

I think once upon a time Staples were a good and necessary part of the game, but now with archetypes and variants, Staples just make things too broken because they do the same things as archetype-specific cards for less of a cost. Which is why Reborn had to go, Heavy was a game winner, etc. Now that we have cards with the same effects but higher costs or more specification as to who can use them, they become too OP when combined with those archetype-specifics.

 

But then getting rid of all the staples limits players creativity with decks that arent archetypal and thus dont have access to the newer archetype-specific cards, because those interesting decks dont have the same power or defenses as everything else has in one way or another. We can't have that either.

 

Which is why I feel sorry for the people at Konami who care about both of these issues regarding what to do with Staples.

[Goose]

Staples are needed.  They make smaller archetypes playable, smaller types playable, unconventional decks playable.  If there weren't staples everyone would play xsabers or whatever decks have gotten a lot of support now a days.  They also keep the game more affordable because once you've bought your 20 or whatever staples you need to play, you have half of every deck so you only need to buy 20 cards to make a deck.

[Sleepy]

I personally would'nt mind the end of Staples, and am not unhappy seeing Konami's recent attacks on the biguns (Heavy, Reborn, etc).

 

I think once upon a time Staples were a good and necessary part of the game, but now with archetypes and variants, Staples just make things too broken because they do the same things as archetype-specific cards for less of a cost. Which is why Reborn had to go, Heavy was a game winner, etc. Now that we have cards with the same effects but higher costs or more specification as to who can use them, they become too OP when combined with those archetype-specifics.

 

But then getting rid of all the staples limits players creativity with decks that arent archetypal and thus dont have access to the newer archetype-specific cards, because those interesting decks dont have the same power or defenses as everything else has in one way or another. We can't have that either.

 

Which is why I feel sorry for the people at Konami who care about both of these issues regarding what to do with Staples.

Which is why I actually am against how heavily Konami has relied on archetypes all this time.

Archetypes are not a bad thing on themselves, but need moderation. The way they are made in this game is just Konami building the decks for you.

More than a Monster Reborn for HEROes, for Lightsworns, for Wind-Ups, etc. They should try to make not-so-good variants of it that are generic enough to experiment with on different decks, but not powerful enough to be a must-have everywhere or warrant list attention.

Also, Konami should focus on fill the wholes of Type/Attribute/X Level(s)/X ATK or DEF/ Ritual/Fusion/Synchro/etc. support before they started lazying around and making more closed archetypes.

[Goose]

The fact that staples outclass archetype specific spells is essential to a varied game.  If there was a HERO Reborn card and no Monster Reborn, HEROes would be much better than every other deck because of it.  Staples deserve such power specifically because they are generic meaning any deck that wants to can benefit from them.

[Delibirb]

The fact that staples outclass archetype specific spells is essential to a varied game.  If there was a HERO Reborn card and no Monster Reborn, HEROes would be much better than every other deck because of it.  Staples deserve such power specifically because they are generic meaning any deck that wants to can benefit from them.

But you can use them in addition to archetype specific versions of themselves, effectively allowing 6 of the same card in a deck. Example would be Monster Reborn and Heraldry Reborn in a Heraldic deck, if the former weren't forbidden.

[Goose]

IMO 6 to 3 is better than 3 to 0

 

EDIT:  Especially when the 3 extra are weaker than the 3 in common

[goddamnit names are a pain]

I am going to leave this short for now and come back later.

I am honestly SICK of staples. Hey, look at the unique deck I built. Monsters are somewhat unique. Spells and Traps are copypasta. And cards like the Forbiddens that can help you or hurt the opponent (same thing) any time and any place are getting real old to me. I want a format that keeps some staples, but tosses out the ones that you just groan at when the hit the field. 
Felgrand is also becoming a pain to deal with. I mean, come on. Negates things whenever, not matter what you do and is a 2800 body.

[Sleepy]

Guys, Monster Reborn is not a balanced card.

It's exactly what I'd call a problem card in all aspects.

It has demonstrated to be broken as a standalone option plenty of times. Having access to too many targets from all Graveyards at no costs or drawbacks.

It also outclasses most reviving cards in the game. When in reality, some reviving cards are not unused because they are bad, but because of lack of targets. Lack of targets is no excuse to  badly design cards. That's where Rekindling came from. While cards like Limit Reverse and Call of the Haunted can offer more varied alternatives.

 

Call of the Haunted though, is arguable. It's fine nowadays because of the format and other factors, but it wasn't always considered balanced, and back in the day it was even considered worse than Monster Reborn, being quick and all. It still brings back bosses from the Graveyard and since it comes from your own Graveyard, it is definitely gonna be something that has synergy with your deck. Those are points to keep in mind even if the card is a-ok nowadays. Not to mention it still is the best choice to go as far as generic goes, and many decks prefer it over everything else.

[Sleepy]

I am going to leave this short for now and come back later.

I am honestly SICK of staples. Hey, look at the unique deck I built. Monsters are somewhat unique. Spells and Traps are copypasta. And cards like the Forbiddens that can help you or hurt the opponent (same thing) any time and any place are getting real old to me. I want a format that keeps some staples, but tosses out the ones that you just groan at when the hit the field. 
Felgrand is also becoming a pain to deal with. I mean, come on. Negates things whenever, not matter what you do and is a 2800 body.

I made the OP in a neutral way for the sake of looking at different points of view and generating a discussion.

Though, honestly, I also am kinda sick of staples being a thing, and don't consider them a "must happen" for every TCG ever.

 

If a deck is X archetype, it will have either Spell/Trap Cards that are absolute must-have, or that are completely worthless. Then the most original-looking decks that look like the monster assembly is pretty unusual, still have the same line-up of Spell/Traps like Compulsory, Solemn/Bottomless, MST, etc.

I can't possibly argue with any of the good players in this forum about some of those cards being badly designed at all, or I'd look like a fool if I did. I mean, who even thinks MST is too good for the game nowadays? But it is still bad to me that all decks have to have it, and often can't have different generic S/T hate cards with some pro and con points to them rather than the almightly MST everyone playing the game must use since the beginning of time. 

 

Then when a previously staple-status card stops being used, it doesn't make anything any more enjoyable. It's usually due to how decks of the format have deformed enough to stop giving a crap about it. Like how back in the Synchro era, there was enough swarm in some decks that Compulsory was pretty meaningless and received less attention, or how Dragon Rulers just plain didn't need any Spell/Traps to run fast and furious, so Heavy Storm stopped being mained.

 

 

I mean, that's my current way of thinking, which I'm willing to change if I see a good opposing point of view.

I can see how in the right builds, X + Y + Z could connect so certain choices make sense for deck-builders, but cards like MST go beyond certain preferences. Holes in strategies should be filled with time rather than with sudden badly designed creations... in my perfect crappy world.

[goddamnit names are a pain]

I made the OP in a neutral way for the sake of looking at different points of view and generating a discussion.

Though, honestly, I also am kinda sick of staples being a thing, and don't consider them a "must happen" for every TCG ever.

 

I can't possibly argue with any of the good players in this forum about some of those cards being badly designed at all, or I'd look like a fool if I did. I mean, who even thinks MST is too good for the game nowadays? But it is still bad to me that all decks have to have it, and often can't have different generic S/T hate cards with some pro and con points to them rather than the almightly MST everyone playing the game must use since the beginning of time. 

I hate MST too.

I think they could do just fine with making cards archetype specific with a few staples, but no. I still like that banning staples gives a reason to run the original version for a deck. TGX3-DX2, anyone?

 

Although things like "activate only if you control a face-up Dragon Rulers" or "draw two cards if you raped someone with JD this turn" could become things. Not the only issue, but you get the point.

Sigh...

[Sleepy]

I'm not a huge fan of slapping an archetype restriction on cards rather than using the other inherent data Monster Cards already have as a concept for support, so we differ in that, but I guess the idea is kinda similar, yeah.

[goddamnit names are a pain]

I'm not a huge fan of slapping an archetype restriction on cards rather than using the other inherent data Monster Cards already have as a concept for support, so we differ in that, but I guess the idea is kinda similar, yeah.

I just feel like staples give people the option not to run the actual deck, at times. Perfectly ok (not good, but ok) monsters being ignored for staples. Then again, some don't deserve to make the cut.

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

If there is no MST, then how do we get rid of our opponent's backrow? You can say Dust Tornado, but if MST never existed, Tornado would have been our MST all along. Then, for people who "didn't want MST," they would want Dust Tornado gone as well; it is MST, except it's a Trap and therefore you can't activate it the turn you get it. After that, we have Nobleman of Extermination and Night Shot, both of which would require blindfighting into your opponent's backrow and praying to whatever ugly deity you believe in that you hit a good enough card. But wait, they're generic Spell/Trap removal! Omg, let's get rid of them!

 

This would mean that you're going to have non-generic Spell/Trap hate, which could exist in a few ways. First, it could be in the monsters, like Cloudian - Acid Cloud or Breaker (who could technically be splashed into everything, and since this would make him a generic Spell/Trap hate card, he must consequently be banned, because god we hate it when two Decks run the same card). This would make things like the Trap Holes pretty powerful, as in many cases, you will not be able to even attempt to take out your opponent's BTH before he/she uses it to slap your monster in the face. They'll also either have to be boss monsters or random scrubby monsters that you throw in there just for the sake of being able to get around Fiendish Chain, TT, and Mirror Force (even though they'd all be banned because they're generic, and instead, the S/T hate will counter "Bath of the Dragon Emperor," "Bujin War Frenzy," and "Dark Scorpion Poison Pills)." And, with there suddenly being eleventy-kajillion "MST upon Normal Summon" monsters for like every archetype that Konami deems necessary of getting one, they all begin to feel like clones of one another, and we would think that Konami was being a lazy jerk for giving Junk Magician's effect to Karakuri Mdl 69 Notjunkmagician.

 

This means that they would have to give them different qualities to make them not look like they're basically giving every archetype a Mystical Space Typhoon. So, the Dragunity one will burn your opponent for 400 damage if it successfully kills the card, the Archfiend one will be unable to hit face-up cards for some reason, and the Cloudian one will make Acid Cloud cry and pop a card while also being a Pot of Greed if you remove 4 Cloudian Counters from the field when it is Normal Summoned. But wait, what's to stop Constellars from running the Maliceverous's version of MST because the Maliceverous MST is better in Constellars than Constellar Sorryweranoutofconstellationstonameyouafterherehavethelongestnameinthegame. Not much, and there can be some measures added to make sure Maliceverous Spork never replaces Constellar SWROOCTNYAHHTLNITG, but oftentimes they would hurt the playability of the card. By making Brohunder need to reveal another Hunder to pop an ominous facedown, you therefore would need to start the play with three Hunders in the hand, or else the card lives. But wait, it's "The Mermail's Plot to Drop the Entire F*cking Ocean on a Poor Unlucky B*stard," and then you lose your two Hunders when MST could've taken out the thing (even though it'd be a bad idea if there was another target at the time). Besides, a lot of these monster versions of MST would basically force the game to rely on blind-MSTing in order to get rid of problem cards. And if you shoot the wrong card, then you obviously suck at this game for not guessing right and should play something else, like some Dora the Explorer game.

 

The same argument applies to Spell and Trap versions of things like Dark Hole and Mirror Force and stuff (because a monster version of Mirror Force makes no sense unless it just whacks all of your opponent's monsters for not being in Defense, which is stupid), only they are a little more splashable because they don't eat your Normal Summon. They could also be less searchable in archetypes that search monsters and not Spells/Traps, or by just naming it "Sickly Antimagicandtrap Mist" instead of "Backrow Infestation Pandemic Epidemic Charismatic Ecstatic."

 

The idea of having three separate MSTs with their own pros and cons is a neat idea to try out, but they would all have to be equal as we already have more than three MSTs in the game, and they are all more suck than MST itself is. But since making them equal in power to actually MST means you will never have a Spell or Trap card live a turn ever again, this would mean that you would need to have MST BANNED FOREVER GO AWAY YOU'RE MORE BROKE THAN JUDGMENT DRAGON and we make several versions of Dust Tornado or Nobleman of Extermination (which is all I got from the above posts). This could be a neat idea, but you're also giving the game like 9 more Dust Tornados. What if you don't want backrow to be an endangered species? More importantly, what if you don't want the game to have like seven different versions of Dark Hole with their varying pros and cons because it makes monsters that aren't immune to six of those seven horrible cards to play because they die? You aren't going to be restricted to running one version of Dark Hole, unless you make it say "You cannot activate this card if you have a "Slaughter of the Monsters", "Very Hungry Outer Space Demon", "Go Away Opponent I Don't Like Your Monsters", "Not Dark Hole", "Monstercide", "Vacuum of Doom", or "The Man from Solemn Judgment's Fist" in your hand, Deck, field, Graveyard, or Banish Zone." And that pile of text is going to add up quickly. "We made a Dark Hole for Monarchs? QUICK! ERRATA ALL OF THE PRE-EXISTING DARK HOLES TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T WORK WITH IT!"

[:^)]

I checked out YGOWiki to see what they considered to be staples, and I have returned with this list:

 

 

Advanced Format

 

Monsters

Effect Veiler

Maxx "C"

Spells

Dark Hole

Mystical Space Typhoon

Synchros

Ally of Justice Catastor

Black Rose Dragon

Crimson Blader

Scrap Dragon

Stardust Dragon

Xyz

Gagaga Cowboy

Maestroke the Symphony Djinn

Number 50: Blackship of Corn

Wind-Up Zenmaines

 

Traditional Format

 

Monsters

Cyber Jar

Magician of Faith

Sangan

Witch of the Black Forest

Spells

Brain Control

Change of Heart

Graceful Charity

Harpie's Feather Duster

Heavy Storm

Giant Trunade

Monster Reborn

Pot of Greed

Raigeki

Snatch Steal

Traps

Imperial Order

Ring of Destruction

Solemn Judgment

Synchros

Goyo Guardian

Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier

Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier

Xyz

Number 16: Shock Master

 

Semi-Staples

 

Monsters

Thunder King Rai-Oh

Spells

Book of Moon

Deck Lockdown

Forbidden Lance

Mind Control

Pot of Duality

Xyz Encore

Traps

Bottomless Trap Hole

Compulsory Evacuation Device

Fiendish Chain

Sixth Sense

Solemn Warning

Soul Drain

Vanity's Emptiness

Synchros

Armades, Keeper of Boundaries

Armory Arm

Orient Dragon

Stardust Spark Dragon

T.G. Hyper Librarian

Xyz

Abyss Dweller

Daigusto Emeral

Lavalval Chain

Leviair the Sea Dragon

 

(I tried putting them into spoilers but it wasn't working.)

 

Honestly I'm pretty happy with this list and I'm glad they're in the game, it makes deck building an awful a lot easier, but it's funny to see how far YGO has come, since Jinzo used to be a Staple etc.

[Sleepy]

If there is no MST, then how do we get rid of our opponent's backrow? You can say Dust Tornado, but if MST never existed, Tornado would have been our MST all along. Then, for people who "didn't want MST," they would want Dust Tornado gone as well; it is MST, except it's a Trap and therefore you can't activate it the turn you get it. After that, we have Nobleman of Extermination and Night Shot, both of which would require blindfighting into your opponent's backrow and praying to whatever ugly deity you believe in that you hit a good enough card. But wait, they're generic Spell/Trap removal! Omg, let's get rid of them!

That was not my point at all. It's not being generic removal. I'm actually against lazy archetype clones and the such.

MST was used as an example of a card that as I said:

It is a balanced standalone card, but it is THE basic balanced S/T hate standalone card.

What I'd like to see is different ways of doing it in other generic-enough cards. The problem is that it is too base-perfect.

If other versions with tweaks are made, they are still overshadowed by MST, and if a better version is made, it is broken.

Proof is that the card has been staple at most formats of the last 10 years. Dust Tornado is made and despite being also a solid standalone card, no one cares because MST is better. Not to mention Traps have pretty heavy lock-down options for them since the beginning of time, and I'm not a big fan of heavy lock-downs but that's another topic. More recently Twister, Whirlwind, and Night Beam are still not on par with it. 

 

Tell me you understand the point I'm trying to make here.

It's not "OMG MST is so broken, let's make one for every archetype we've ever made and let it all be clones". That would be awful, and that type of design even hinders the comeback ability of a game.

It is more along the lines of "1/2 MST2.0-thingy that works better when this way of playing is in place is better for my deck than that other 1/2MST4.0 that is still solid, but doesn't go well with this X mindset that my build revolves around."

Options not separated by archetypes, but by other more semi-generic factors.

 

This would mean that you're going to have non-generic Spell/Trap hate, which could exist in a few ways. First, it could be in the monsters, like Cloudian - Acid Cloud or Breaker (who could technically be splashed into everything, and since this would make him a generic Spell/Trap hate card, he must consequently be banned, because god we hate it when two Decks run the same card).

It's not bad that multiple people with the same card decide to use it, but when all decks must use it, you are going to the other extreme which is also not ideal.

And you know 99% of decks use MST.

 

This would make things like the Trap Holes pretty powerful, as in many cases, you will not be able to even attempt to take out your opponent's BTH before he/she uses it to slap your monster in the face. They'll also either have to be boss monsters or random scrubby monsters that you throw in there just for the sake of being able to get around Fiendish Chain, TT, and Mirror Force (even though they'd all be banned because they're generic, and instead, the S/T hate will counter "Bath of the Dragon Emperor," "Bujin War Frenzy," and "Dark Scorpion Poison Pills)." And, with there suddenly being eleventy-kajillion "MST upon Normal Summon" monsters for like every archetype that Konami deems necessary of getting one, they all begin to feel like clones of one another, and we would think that Konami was being a lazy jerk for giving Junk Magician's effect to Karakuri Mdl 69 Notjunkmagician.

To be fair, many already kinda think that, tbh.

I'm agreeing with this point because of what I said above, that doesn't conflict with this at all.

 

This means that they would have to give them different qualities to make them not look like they're basically giving every archetype a Mystical Space Typhoon. So, the Dragunity one will burn your opponent for 400 damage if it successfully kills the card, the Archfiend one will be unable to hit face-up cards for some reason, and the Cloudian one will make Acid Cloud cry and pop a card while also being a Pot of Greed if you remove 4 Cloudian Counters from the field when it is Normal Summoned. But wait, what's to stop Constellars from running the Maliceverous's version of MST because the Maliceverous MST is better in Constellars than Constellar Sorryweranoutofconstellationstonameyouafterherehavethelongestnameinthegame. Not much, and there can be some measures added to make sure Maliceverous Spork never replaces Constellar SWROOCTNYAHHTLNITG, but oftentimes they would hurt the playability of the card. By making Brohunder need to reveal another Hunder to pop an ominous facedown, you therefore would need to start the play with three Hunders in the hand, or else the card lives. But wait, it's "The Mermail's Plot to Drop the Entire F*cking Ocean on a Poor Unlucky B*stard," and then you lose your two Hunders when MST could've taken out the thing (even though it'd be a bad idea if there was another target at the time). Besides, a lot of these monster versions of MST would basically force the game to rely on blind-MSTing in order to get rid of problem cards. And if you shoot the wrong card, then you obviously suck at this game for not guessing right and should play something else, like some Dora the Explorer game.

You can't always succeed at making ALL options for everything in any given TCG equally good. It's like filling up some kind of super-advanced 3D version of Tetris.

Though it doesn't mean not trying. Again, minus the "archetype" that stains this post everywhere.

 

The same argument applies to Spell and Trap versions of things like Dark Hole and Mirror Force and stuff (because a monster version of Mirror Force makes no sense unless it just whacks all of your opponent's monsters for not being in Defense, which is stupid),

You could actually achive that one with a FLIP effect that only works during your opponent's Battle Phase or something. Just saying.

 

only they are a little more splashable because they don't eat your Normal Summon. They could also be less searchable in archetypes that search monsters and not Spells/Traps, or by just naming it "Sickly Antimagicandtrap Mist" instead of "Backrow Infestation Pandemic Epidemic Charismatic Ecstatic."

 

The idea of having three separate MSTs with their own pros and cons is a neat idea to try out, but they would all have to be equal as we already have more than three MSTs in the game, and they are all more suck than MST itself is. But since making them equal in power to actually MST means you will never have a Spell or Trap card live a turn ever again, this would mean that you would need to have MST BANNED FOREVER GO AWAY YOU'RE MORE BROKE THAN JUDGMENT DRAGON and we make several versions of Dust Tornado or Nobleman of Extermination (which is all I got from the above posts). This could be a neat idea, but you're also giving the game like 9 more Dust Tornados.

Oh ok... so you DID get my idea.

And that's just what I'm saying. MST is not per say bad at all, but many cards only really "suck" because MST exists, and that's something to take at least a side note on.

I don't think "worse than MST" would necessarily make a card bad if that comparison didn't exist, and since MST is that exact and certain level of good as it is, cards "equally" as good as it, would be pretty bad for the game as a whole.

 

What if you don't want backrow to be an endangered species?

Due to many other factors that are pretty much irreversible nowadays, that concept of "completely safe backrow" can't be a thing and be balanced as a concept anymore.

 

More importantly, what if you don't want the game to have like seven different versions of Dark Hole with their varying pros and cons because it makes monsters that aren't immune to six of those seven horrible cards to play because they die? You aren't going to be restricted to running one version of Dark Hole, unless you make it say "You cannot activate this card if you have a "Slaughter of the Monsters", "Very Hungry Outer Space Demon", "Go Away Opponent I Don't Like Your Monsters", "Not Dark Hole", "Monstercide", "Vacuum of Doom", or "The Man from Solemn Judgment's Fist" in your hand, Deck, field, Graveyard, or Banish Zone." And that pile of text is going to add up quickly. "We made a Dark Hole for Monarchs? QUICK! ERRATA ALL OF THE PRE-EXISTING DARK HOLES TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T WORK WITH IT!"

That is a good point, and what I'm about to say seems to contradict what I said earlier, but bear with me.

Just like archetypes, staples are something that while I'm not a big fan of, it's also not something that should be erased from existence altogether and strictly speaking. Something like MST is generic removal that COULD have different twists to it. Dark Hole's duty however, is that of an over-extension punisher. To be fair, Dark Hole is only really not ban-worthy right now because the monsters have become so easy to re-assamble nowadays, but it's still not that great of a concept. I personally think Torrential is a better punisher for that and doesn't give you such an easy way to just clear the field on your Main Phase before swarming.

I'm not sure how to go about punishers... if at 3, it's just too much. If at 1, it's sacky.... anyways. I'm getting side-tracked here.

 

Dark Hole is not exactly on the same league as something like MST. It's one of those effects that shouldn't be common in the game at all.

 

Even though here I'm recognizing a couple of staples could be necessary, or at least their concepts without making them too much of a recurring idea, it'd still be good not to abuse the concept, just like archetypes are also abused in the game.

If you went back to 2005, a huge amount of Goat Control's deck lists consisted on stuff that could pretty much be considered standalone staples stacked together at it's time.

Pro: It created some pretty good gameplay. Con: It kinda neglected variety. It wasn't exactly clones, but it was generally the same stuff.

[Toffee.]

Here's an interesting thought, with regards to this topic....
You could, theoretically, challenge people to build a deck, on the grounds that they make a 42 card deck, but every card in the deck must be run at 3s, with the exception of Space Typhoon, Duality, Forbidden Lance, Skill Drain, and maybe Call of the Haunted, which CAN'T be included. Of course, you would still have to follow the current list at the same time, but not a single card in your deck can be in 1s or 2s, all of them are in 3s.
With this in mind, it would force people to come up with their own ideas, based on how they have interpreted the game at one point or another, and fill their deck with cards accordingly.
This way, you could test the capability of the game, with the mindset that you are, basically, forcing people to ride without training wheels, and see how far they are willing to go, when they are fending for themselves.

Of course, you shouldn't be surprised if everyone plays 3 copies of Sakuretsu Armor and Dust Tornado.

[Sleepy]

Here's an interesting thought, with regards to this topic....
You could, theoretically, challenge people to build a deck, on the grounds that they make a 42 card deck, but every card in the deck must be run at 3s, with the exception of Space Typhoon, Duality, Forbidden Lance, Skill Drain, and maybe Call of the Haunted, which CAN'T be included. Of course, you would still have to follow the current list at the same time, but not a single card in your deck can be in 1s or 2s, all of them are in 3s.
With this in mind, it would force people to come up with their own ideas, based on how they have interpreted the game at one point or another, and fill their deck with cards accordingly.
This way, you could test the capability of the game, with the mindset that you are, basically, forcing people to ride without training wheels, and see how far they are willing to go, when they are fending for themselves.

Of course, you shouldn't be surprised if everyone plays 3 copies of Sakuretsu Armor and Dust Tornado.

That last part is it. The issue I'm addressing is not that of a list change, but one that should have been slowly handled with time from the very beginning of the game.

Of course we have stuff like that. Multiple layers of options outclassing each other. Ring of Destruction > Compulsory > Mirror Force/D Prison > Sakuretsu > Blasting Ruin. 

It applies for many other cards as well. A staple can replace another one if taken out like that. The thing is that there is pretty much 1 best option at any given level of the chain, and 1 only, for some of these.

I'd like the game to have choices on these things. "if I take X out, Y replaces it" is the case for most of these, so my idea comes down as impossible =(

[Goose]

Here's an interesting thought, with regards to this topic....
You could, theoretically, challenge people to build a deck, on the grounds that they make a 42 card deck, but every card in the deck must be run at 3s, with the exception of Space Typhoon, Duality, Forbidden Lance, Skill Drain, and maybe Call of the Haunted, which CAN'T be included. Of course, you would still have to follow the current list at the same time, but not a single card in your deck can be in 1s or 2s, all of them are in 3s.
With this in mind, it would force people to come up with their own ideas, based on how they have interpreted the game at one point or another, and fill their deck with cards accordingly.
This way, you could test the capability of the game, with the mindset that you are, basically, forcing people to ride without training wheels, and see how far they are willing to go, when they are fending for themselves.

Of course, you shouldn't be surprised if everyone plays 3 copies of Sakuretsu Armor and Dust Tornado.

 

X-saber tier 1 again finally.  Non-archetypes wouldn't be competitive IMO.  The spells and traps they would beed to play would be extremely weak and the decks would be very inconsistent.