Star Seraph Scepter & Sovereignity

[CLG Klavier]

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Seraph_Scepter

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Seraph_Sovereignty

 

So yeah, they're coming in WSUP. However, there's one thing we gotta keep in mind about them: we don't have Shock Master, aka the prime 3-mat Rank 4 over here in TCG. Not saying they will be bad, they will be amazing, but still.

[Toffee.]

Aren't these, like, realistically only good if you have Scepter and Sov already in-hand, so you can dop 2x Sovs out of nowhere?
Though, regardless, Decks made around abusing the hell out of Scepter are honestly one of the most funny things you can ever do. You just make pluses for days.

[Blake]

I actually think this engine is pretty garbs.

 

It's flashy as hell, it wins games when it resolves... But I rarely resolved it. In a format where consistency is so key, I don't think an engine like this is actually that strong, especially against a deck like Nekroz. Would def beat weasels if it resolved, though I have a feeling it would have a hard time doing so against them.

[Expelsword]

Sorry not everything can be as easy as Armageddon Knight...

As for this actual engine's best play, I can only refer to the expert, darkwolf, for why Konami allows it to work.

 

"It does not follow obvious situations that the humans playing can see"

[Blake]

Sorry not everything can be as easy as Armageddon Knight...

 

As for this actual engine's best play, I can only refer to the expert darkwolf, on why Konami allows it to work.

That doesn't even make sense. Why make a dig that doesn't have anything to do with what's at hand?

 

I've been saying this for a while. It's a 2 unsearchable (well, technically one's searchable, but) card combo that makes a 3-Mat R4 and draws you three cards while popping one.

 

With Delteros, they can't respond to the popping effect that scepter gives to it, for some reason. Still just a Delteros after that.

 

I feel like putting them in a deck with Tellarknights decreases consistency while hoping to god you resolve this so your Delteros can float later. But it takes away from the deck's consistency for a wincon.

 

Chaos Dolls are more consistent than Seraph Dolls, from my testing. And I loathe Chaos Dolls as a deck. Hell, I think generic goodstuff Shaddolls is a better deck than Seraph Dolls. And with limited Soul Charge and the shift in quality of the fusion spells, one of the few decks that had a quick means to abuse it... no longer does.

 

the idea of these into ptolemaios into infinity is terrifying for sure, but that's not here and the OCG can't do that

 

These are cards that very much apply to the OCG mentality of playing, which often lends itself to these flashy game winner plays, as opposed to using floodgates and the like.

 

The TCG plays to beat their opponent, the OCG plays to win for themselves, so to speak.

 

And these don't really fit into the former much, given the lack of CyDra Infinity or Shock Bastard here. Though, it is interesting to note that the OCG actually took more to using them with Delteros (due to said ruling I nodded at earlier) and its sheer power over Shock Bastard before the engine was hit. Even so, eh.

 

A similar example would be Rank-Up Magics. OCG frequently teched Limited Barian's Force in R4.deks as a wincon, namely post LVAL. It gave power to things that were fairly consistent... But, the problem with that, in the TCG mindset, is that you run a fairly dead card that can win the game but only inceases power, not consistency.

 

Some decks appreciate RUMs for that (Gimmick Puppets, for example), but more decks need even more consistecny than they need immediate power. The same applies to ol' Stick Chair here. It's a lot of power, but it adds nothing to your consistency.

EDIT: And it's a power engine. Not consistency, which is against the norm. That takes /6/ whole slots.

[Toffee.]

*Raises hand*

Am I the only [s]idiot[/s] one who actually bothers to play along with Sov's intended use, and doesn't take advantage of the absurd backwards logic of being able to Summon the Sov you literally just searched?

[Expelsword]

I don't see how Stellaknights are really "inconsistent" with this when they're going to have 3 Rota and Deneb + Skybridge to go into whatever they want.

Sure, you can block Satellaknights off easily, with Breakthrough Skill, Crow, Veiler, whatever, but that's not quite the same as bricking.

 

Also, the Scepter-Deltatheros ruling makes perfect sense. The one that doesn't is Scepter - Sovereign - Sovereign.

[Slinky]

*Raises hand*

Am I the only idiot one who actually bothers to play along with Sov's intended use, and doesn't take advantage of the absurd backwards logic of being able to Summon the Sov you literally just searched?

 

It isn't backwards logic though. it's a combination of the hand not being public knowledge, and that it can't miss timing. 

 

Since you can't reveal your hand to show you have another copy of it, it just lets you do it.

 

Not allowing it would be the backwards logic, since then what if you actually /did/ have a second copy. You can't exactly prove you had the second copy without revealing your hand contents.

 

It's the same scenario with Generation Shift vs. Fire King Avatar Yaksha (or any of the fire kings really). Generation Shift destroys A, and adds another A to the hand. Since you can't prove you have another Fire King in your hand, the gamestate allows it to assume and you can chain the card you just added.

[CLG Klavier]

Can someone explain the entire deal, just for clarification's sake? I know how it works, but just to make sure.

[Blake]

I don't see how Stellaknights are really "inconsistent" with this when they're going to have 3 Rota and Deneb + Skybridge to go into whatever they want.
Sure, you can block Satellaknights off easily, with Breakthrough Skill, Crow, Veiler, whatever, but that's not quite the same as bricking.
 
Also, the Scepter-Deltatheros ruling makes perfect sense. The one that doesn't is Scepter - Sovereign - Sovereign.

It's a 6 card alternate engine dependent on a Normal Summon. When you're already heavily dependent on NSing.
 
Uh, no it doesn't.

Let's look at Delteros:
While this card has Xyz Material, your opponent cannot activate cards or effects when you Normal or Special Summon a monster(s).
 
Using the logic of other cards, this would mean the window extends until something else happens. Why it doesn't is beyond me, but every other "cannot activate" expires when another action occurs, unless it specifies when it expires (Armades, for example). And Stick grants an effect that starts a chain.

Can someone explain the entire deal, just for clarification's sake? I know how it works, but just to make sure.

Summon stick, chain chair

Chair hits the board, draws a card, then stick adds another chair

Chair 2 summons itself because chair 1 was summoned.

[Slinky]

It's a 6 card alternate engine dependent on a Normal Summon. When you're already heavily dependent on NSing.
 
Uh, no it doesn't.

Let's look at Delteros:
While this card has Xyz Material, your opponent cannot activate cards or effects when you Normal or Special Summon a monster(s).
 
Using the logic of other cards, this would mean the window extends until something else happens. Why it doesn't is beyond me, but every other "cannot activate" expires when another action occurs, unless it specifies when it expires (Armades, for example). And Stick grants an effect that starts a chain.

 

Uh... It's an effect that occurs ON its summon. If you can't chain to its summon, you can't chain to something that happens on its summon. It isn't really a hard concept. What other cards have this logic that also have an effect that can occur on its summon? I can't think of any off of the top of my head.

[Expelsword]

Uh... It's an effect that occurs ON its summon. If you can't chain to its summon, you can't chain to something that happens on its summon. It isn't really a hard concept. What other cards have this logic that also have an effect that can occur on its summon? I can't think of any off of the top of my head.

 

[Blake]

Uh... It's an effect that occurs ON its summon. If you can't chain to its summon, you can't chain to something that happens on its summon. It isn't really a hard concept. What other cards have this logic that also have an effect that can occur on its summon? I can't think of any off of the top of my head.

They're all newer cards, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.

If you make Qliphort Stealth CL1 and make another Qli CL2, they can't respond to that. And while a summon isn't an action that starts a chain, you then start a chain that is seperate from the summon itself. Triggered by it, sure, but not the same.

I just think that you shouldn't be barred from respondign to something that isn't the summon itself. The card doesn't say "or their effects when summoned" or anything, so it shouldn't cover effects.

[Slinky]

They're all newer cards, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.

If you make Qliphort Stealth CL1 and make another Qli CL2, they can't respond to that. And while a summon isn't an action that starts a chain, you then start a chain that is seperate from the summon itself. Triggered by it, sure, but not the same.

I just think that you shouldn't be barred from respondign to something that isn't the summon itself. The card doesn't say "or their effects when summoned" or anything, so it shouldn't cover effects.

 

It's still /in/ that window though. Which is why it works. So, what exactly is the issue?

 

Ever heard of the Winged Dragon of Ra?

 

Ra is also extremely inconsistent with its rulings.  See: Ra and DNA Surgery vs. Brain Research Lab.   Everything indicates it would work (since none of Labs effects start a chain, and are all continuous, thus the "no activation" doesnt even matter here), but the ruling says you can't. Ra is a terrible example.

[Blake]

It's still /in/ that window though. Which is why it works. So, what exactly is the issue?

Because it says in response to the summon.

"When you... Summon a monster(s)" is already past at that point. Yeah, you can't stop the actual summon, but the protection shouldn't go on past that action. That's illogical and goes against the wording, as it neither specifies their effects as part of it nor how long it lasts.

EDIT: I guess it makes sense in terms of CL1 BTH, CL2 ???, CL3 TT, but it still could've been worded better and feels like abuse of rulings.

[Expelsword]

but it still could've been worded better and feels like abuse of rulings.

 

Please, stop, the irony is killing me.

[Blake]

Please, stop, the irony is killing me.

seriously, what the fuck is your problem? Yeah, I'm trying to figure Igknights out because they're likely to be a best deck. Are you going to keep scorning me for it every chance you get?i mean, the deck is born ing as shit, but it's going to be around so light as well crack it.

[Expelsword]

seriously, what the f*** is your problem? Yeah, I'm trying to figure Igknights out because they're likely to be a best deck. Are you going to keep scorning me for it every chance you get?i mean, the deck is born ing as s***, but it's going to be around so light as well crack it.

 

That's the thing, I don't think it's going to be.

The "ruling" that allows Igknights to use Key Beetle is so clearly abusive and against the intent of the cards that there's no way they could allow it to stand.

 

It's solely due to this complete bullshit that Armageddon and Zephyros are being hyped and/or decried as broken, despite to my knowledge having done relatively nothing for several formats.

 

Don't use a deck that functions on nothing other than abuse of the rules and then turn around and cry foul at Deltatheros, who makes perfect sense. It's absurdly hypocritical.

[Blake]

That's the thing, I don't think it's going to be.

The "ruling" that allows Igknights to use Key Beetle is so clearly abusive and against the intent of the cards that there's no way they could allow it to stand.

 

It's solely due to this complete bullshit that Armageddon and Zephyros are being hyped and/or decried as broken, despite to my knowledge having done relatively nothing for several formats.

 

Don't use a deck that functions on nothing other than abuse of the rules and then turn around and cry foul at Deltatheros, who makes perfect sense. It's absurdly hypocritical.

The ruling is based on existing cards. They very much could allow it to stand, as this isn't even the most gamebreaking thing ever. Especially considering the Xyz Encore ruling.

 

zephyros has been called a broken card for, like, ever, and it's been used in more than a few F/OTKs.

 

Armageddon Knight's brokenness has nothing to do with Igknights, and you're blind if you think it does. It's a generic power card. It has been inthe TCG for a little bit. Shaddoll Dragon, Farfa, hitting the Djinn, etc. Mathematician was used similarly, as well, and I've said that was limitable for a year or more. Armageddon Knight is a searchable engine card, and even with RotA at 1, is a considerable engine for certain decks.

 

I admitted my flawed misunderstanding of Delteros despite my dislike for the wording, but one abuse of the rules doesn't change another. It is incredibly likely that it's going to work like that, especially considering OCG Konami is now pushing to merge the Dark Legion starter with Igknights for one of their gimmicky deck profiles. And Acid's ruling backs it up.

 

I'm just trying to figure out a deck that is, in all likelihood, going to be fucking stupid and damage the gamestate. Not like Dragon Rulers or Spelbook of Judgment did something similar 9 sets ago, or anything. Now, what company were you trying to defend again?

 

Now get off of your attetmpted moral high horse and quit being a jackass.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Alright, I'm going to drop in now.

 

Please keep things calm and on topic. This is a topic on Star Seraphs, not Arma/Zephyros.

 

Just discuss the card in peace, ok everyone?

[Toffee.]

Just discuss the card in peace, ok everyone?

Twilicane Scepter x3
Chair x3

Revival cards x34

Deck.dek

And yes, it's possible to do that.

[Expelsword]

If Konami lets it stand then I'll probably spend the format taking up Vanguard instead.

I can't wait to see how big of a trainwreck they made the game after they came up with Legion. What could they come up with next?

 

As for Star Seraphs, I don't think I've ever seen someone play their actual boss monster. It's all about the Summer Triangle.

[mshends]

Ahh Star Seraphs, remember when they first came out, they minus like a pro and have such boring design? After the new SS came outs it finally make them a play style, and instead of minus, they plus alot now..I'm just glad that instead of just a rank 4 spam archetype, this archetype focus on summoning monster that require 3+ lv 4 monsters..Im really glad they are finally in the TCG soon and these support will make Durbe happy (BTW Durbe was so underused..)

The sad news is that with the current meta right now, don't really think SS will see much play as they used to in the OCG..

[Althemia]

I can't wait to see how big of a trainwreck they made the game after they came up with Legion. What could they come up with next?

It's probably at one of it's best points right now. Shame the same can't be said for YGO right now though, speaking of trainwrecks. :c

OT: They'll definitely get played in something right now, Seraphdolls are probably still a real deck even though we only have Delta to really make off of them.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Seraphdolls are going to be a nice deck.

 

Seraphs gives TK more ways to do what they can already do, but Seraph gives Shaddolls a way to do what TK does while still doing what it does best.

And also, even if the engine's dead in hand, they'll make for Construct fodder, which is always good.