Since we got the second coming of [Elemental HERO Stratos]

[Blake]

 

inb4stratosargumentstarts

 

Mostly posting this because this guy has 44 targets, including himself, after years of support, though he did have a lot off the bat/soon after. Performapal Skullcrobat Joker has 43, which excludes himself, and Arc-V is only a year and not-quite-2 months old. It'll be like 1 and 2.5 months when it comes out.

 

This doesn't include the ED or the sheer oversaturation of (E-)HERO support cards, but damn.

[玄魔の王]

I srtill miss this guy, if for no other reason than his being banned punishes a lot of other HEROs for being WIND.

[CLG Klavier]

Mostly posting this because this guy has 44 targets, including himself, after years of support, though he did have a lot off the bat/soon after. Performapal Skullcrobat Joker has 43, which excludes himself, and Arc-V is only a year and not-quite-2 months old. It'll be like 1 and 2.5 months when it comes out.

Did I ever say to free my fucking nigga Stratos?

 

But no, seriously. IMO he's a pretty safe unban nowadays. He'd be still very powerful of a card, but not as much as back in the day plus it would let HERO decks actually, you know, use WIND fusions.

[mido9]

Would be totally fine if it was on normal summon only or OPT so you couldnt spam it with everything to create 8k boards with bubbleman. Or if you just couldnt make OTK boards with it overall.

[- Minimania -]

Would be totally fine if it was on normal summon only or OPT so you couldnt spam it with everything to create 8k boards with bubbleman. Or if you just couldnt make OTK boards with it overall.

so you're telling me Stratos is banned because we have 3 Bubblemen?

[Toffee.]

HEROs have:
-A HERO specific RotA
-Dark Mist
-A card to trigger Dark Mist
-An E-Tele
-etc

Personally, I'm fine with or without Stratos.

[Slinky]

Either way, Joker only activates on Normal Summon.

Stratos works on both Normal AND Special, and lacks an OPT clause. Stratos also can sacrifice the search for a couple MSTs, which is definitely relevant with floodgates and pendulums.

I would have no problem with Stratos if a hard OPT clause was slapped on. But as it sits right now, I don't feel like it should come back without hitting some of the other consistency cards to compensate.

 

Which is another point. Stratos existing leads to unnecessary hits to the other Heros. I mean for god sakes, the OCG actually limited Bubbleman (semi'd now, but still, it was limited at a point).

[SirReal]

Also note that the OCG has RotA at 1, which may be dues to Stratos existing. It was this same reason that I advocated the banning of the D-Rulers for the longest time because generic support had to be hit in order to allow 4 cards to live. Ravine, Seven Swords, Gold Sarc (debatable) can all now safely come back up. It was the same story with Stratos and Bubbleman, RotA and friends. 

 

I would be 100% okay with Stratos at 3 with a hard once per turn clause like every other search monster in the game at the moment.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

OCG has ROTA @1 for a lot of reasons that go far beyond Heros....

 

I'd say we look at what the OCG does before making up our mind if TCG should unban this. Stratos become more fair as the Trap line up grows which sorry to say is pitiful in TCG atm

 

It's been tested repeated. As far as heros are concerned, 3 ROTA helps about as much a single stratos would due to searching goblin. The only reason heroes aren't as good as they are in OCG is the lack of CDI. 

 

I don't think Stratos should be be unbanned in TCG as long as TCG insists on keeping HFD banned and the Trap Line neutered 

[The Warden]

It was either them or Heavy Storm. Staples took a hit so other backrow may live. It's not as perfect now, but it was an acceptable loss when it first occurred.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It was either them or Heavy Storm. Staples took a hit so other backrow may live.

You don't understand. It was only after a convo with VCR that I realized. In OCG if Stratos gets summoned with EP coth and pops say 1-2 cards. You luck out and a compulsory. In OCG, no worries you have 2 more. In TCG that's devastating. Unless TCG puts the traps up, cards like Trishula nor Stratos should return. 

 

Fuck Heavy, that card broke Shock Master. I don't want to see the Qli's double shocking people anymore. HFD is worlds more fair

[Blake]

You don't understand. It was only after a convo with VCR that I realized. In OCG if Stratos gets summoned with EP coth and pops say 1-2 cards. You luck out and a compulsory. In OCG, no worries you have 2 more. In TCG that's devastating. Unless TCG puts the traps up, cards like Trishula nor Stratos should return. 

 

Fuck Heavy, that card broke Shock Master. I don't want to see the Qli's double shocking people anymore. HFD is worlds more fair

Wow, those... are actually interesting points. That makes a lot more sense. Who knew the multi-MST was that good, huh?

 

also yeah, i heard about qli with heavy storm a few times

[The Warden]

Not really. See, what's the justification for doing so? Stratos and Trishula aren't what we call "fair". If you need to justify them getting off the list by also adding more backrow back specifically to treat them, well.., what's the point exactly? Wouldn't it be easier to just leave them as they are? Isn't doing nothing better than juggling things around haphazardly? Also, if HFD is as devastating as you say, then why do we need it back at all? We already have means to defeat backrow. Why do we need one that is just an OTK enabler and an unfair topdeck?

You say we need them back. I just ask why when we've been doing fine enough as-is without them.

[TheTurtleOnceCalledGod]

Perhaps remake as a once per turn clause, or perhaps even a once per duel clause.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Not really. See, what's the justification for doing so? Stratos and Trishula aren't what we call "fair". If you need to justify them getting off the list by also adding more backrow back specifically to treat them, well.., what's the point exactly? Wouldn't it be easier to just leave them as they are? Isn't doing nothing better than juggling things around haphazardly? Also, if HFD is as devastating as you say, then why do we need it back at all? We already have means to defeat backrow. Why do we need one that is just an OTK enabler and an unfair topdeck?

You say we need them back. I just ask why when we've been doing fine enough as-is without them.

You cause and effect is a little off. Harpie's has become less and less of OTK enabler after Konami made cards like CDI that are generic negates. I'm not necessarily saying it's better (which is why it's so hard to say one banlist is "better" than the other objectively). Increasing the traps just allows more justification for reducing the cards on the banlist. If that's not a priority for you, by all means go the TCG way. OCG's playerbase tends to like more card options, so we are willing to have the "downside" of more traps to facilitate that.

 

BTW

 

ROTA is more so for Tellars than heroes

 

 

Perhaps remake as a once per turn clause, or perhaps even a once per duel clause.

 

I really wish you people would stop suggesting this. You can't have the cake and eat it. If TCG wants a Trap Low and Mass Wipe less format, sure, but those being present allow stratos to exist peacefully in OCG. Just because you guys want to have the best of both world does not justify neuters stratos to achieve it. 

 

 

Wow, those... are actually interesting points. That makes a lot more sense. Who knew the multi-MST was that good, huh?

 

also yeah, i heard about qli with heavy storm a few times

 

Absolutely. Say it's Shaddolls, you have Winda or the Earth one up, opponent has a hero up. And summons Stratos. Will you torrential your own board to deny them stratos? Most of the time you grimace and allow them to get the +1. Now in OCG 3 torrentials exist, so its not as painful. Can't say the same for TCG. Trishula fits the same situation, though a little less since a good player should be able to see the 3 material set up and that's an extra level of weakness. But in large, as long as BTH, TT, and Compuls are @1 in TCG, cards like Trish, Stratos, and CED will not come back.

 

Funny about Qli's, technically, Storm should get the same desired result. Necloths being the top deck is likely why Qli's can afford the double shock play

[The Warden]

Umm, by the sounds of it, you are the one who wants their cake and to eat it as well. TCG and OCG might as well be the sun and the moon for how different they are and choose to remain. TCG works in a more restricted light, but at least in this way you have to manage your resources a bit more carefully. I dunno how off your cause and effect is, but mine is telling me that if HFD was put back in with no other changes, I would guarantee you that it would be an OTK enabler as we can't just bring back the backrow we lost when losing them that turn is essentially game. Hell, even if the trap count went up it's still game, because that's the only time you'd use it is when you have a winning hand. CyDra Unfairnity is by no means a justification for bringing it back either. You don't fight fire with fire, you fight it with water. That's common sense, especially since we don't even have him nor will we get him for quite a while anyways.

 

What you need to understand (see: actually read what I'm saying) is that TCG and OCG have gone through different legs of the Trousers of Time. And as a result are evolving differently. The changes you're proposing (see: wishing) are not conducive to the TCG's environment. OCG can get away with unbanning Trish and Stratos because of their vast array of backrow. TCG cannot because the backrow is less. Going back to my earlier metaphor, you don't fight fire with fire, you fight it with water. There is simply no need to bring those cards back into the game, it's just not healthy for it. I mean, if it was an apparently good idea Konami of America would have picked up on it by now; they've had a few years. If their recent experiments have been any indication, bringing problem cards back hurts the homeostasis of TCG, as shown by Snatch Steal's 3 month run. You don't make a body better by giving it rat poison after all... unless you have a blood clot. But adding Stratos or Trishula certainly won't make it better.

 

My entire point is: Why do we even need them back?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Umm, by the sounds of it, you are the one who wants their cake and to eat it as well. TCG and OCG might as well be the sun and the moon for how different they are and choose to remain. TCG works in a more restricted light, but at least in this way you have to manage your resources a bit more carefully. I dunno how off your cause and effect is, but mine is telling me that if HFD was put back in with no other changes, I would guarantee you that it would be an OTK enabler as we can't just bring back the backrow we lost when losing them that turn is essentially game. Hell, even if the trap count went up it's still game, because that's the only time you'd use it is when you have a winning hand. CyDra Unfairnity is by no means a justification for bringing it back either. You don't fight fire with fire, you fight it with water. That's common sense, especially since we don't even have him nor will we get him for quite a while anyways.

 

What you need to understand (see: actually read what I'm saying) is that TCG and OCG have gone through different legs of the Trousers of Time. And as a result are evolving differently. The changes you're proposing (see: wishing) are not conducive to the TCG's environment. OCG can get away with unbanning Trish and Stratos because of their vast array of backrow. TCG cannot because the backrow is less. Going back to my earlier metaphor, you don't fight fire with fire, you fight it with water. There is simply no need to bring those cards back into the game, it's just not healthy for it. I mean, if it was an apparently good idea Konami of America would have picked up on it by now; they've had a few years. If their recent experiments have been any indication, bringing problem cards back hurts the homeostasis of TCG, as shown by Snatch Steal's 3 month run. You don't make a body better by giving it rat poison after all... unless you have a blood clot. But adding Stratos or Trishula certainly won't make it better.

 

My entire point is: Why do we even need them back?

We don't. That's the entire point. Most of TCG is fine as is. There are a few cards like Super Poly that should never have been banned. But by in large if you want TCG to remain dusterless and trap weak, the format is perfect as is.

[玄魔の王]

Sorry Divine Wind, Great Tornado, Blast...

[Agro]

Considering almost a quarter of a hero deck can be searchers and they don't run that many monsters to begin with, the only reason I can think of that people really want this back at this point is for a good WIND Hero. Or if they like OTKs and swift Bubbleman plays.

 

If we're going to get a WIND elemental hero, I have to say I hope it would have focus on manipulating the graveyard in some fashion, by either returning cards to the hand, or– noting the amount of searchers they have– the deck.

 

My entire point is: Why do we even need them back?

We don't. That's the entire point. Most of TCG is fine as is.

I like how many posts it took before you two realized you were making the same argument.