Blue-Blooded Oni

[CLG Klavier]

Except ihop already explained exactly why it's currently a problem

Current problem are Nekroz is what I understood from his post.

But it clearly is threatening. Nekroz are at threat of autolosing because of this card, they are constantly at threat of being OTKed because of this card.

Once again: Nekroz. A deck that's too powerful and shouldn't exist in this state. That deck IS dangerous and Djinn and Trish should be banned last list anyways.

[Blake]

Yes. I see no reason in banning a card that's not threatening at the moment.

 

If we go by "what ifs", we should ban half of the cards.

But it is threatening at the moment.

 

Djinn is, admittedly, a very poor card. Drawing it is almost always a wasted draw. However, being able to dump it/TGU it (relative non-issue) makes it on demand and a lot stronger. The fact that it's Nekroz doesn't change this, especially considering it's not lik this is its only interaction that's too strong.

 

Lavalval Chain may not b the main issue, but it makes the ability to find a card like Djinn (or Seraphs, or Clowns or Mezukis or Onis or... you get the gist) stupidly easy is an overly powerful impact that has been relevant more-or-less since its release.

[玄魔の王]

Yes. I see no reason in banning a card that's not threatening at the moment.

 

If we go by "what ifs", we should ban half of the cards.

It's not a what-if. Chain has shown why a Foolish Burial on legs is a bad idea already, and anything that triggers by hitting the Grave is enabled by this. It's not if but when.

[ihop]

And what's part of the thing making it powerful? Lavalval Chain. I hate to talk about game health again but OTKs and autolosses are some of the most unhealthy aspects, both of which are created by Lavalval Chain. Clearly there's a problem here.

[CLG Klavier]

Sure, everyone is right and I'm 101% wrong as always and not a single thing I said holds. Not that I didn't see it coming.

[ihop]

No, for funk's sake, I'm trying to reasonably explain to you the flaw in your argument and why I believe what I do. Playing the victim doesn't do anything for you.

[CLG Klavier]

No, for funk's sake, I'm trying to reasonably explain to you the flaw in your argument and why I believe what I do. Playing the victim doesn't do anything for you.

So can you funking tell me where my argument goes wrong?

 

This card enables a lot of sheet in Nekroz, a deck that's already broken beyond belief. Main offender of this currently is Djinn. Djinn should be banned anyways.

 

And don't get me started on Clownblade since that deck doesn't yet exist in TCG.

[玄魔の王]

So can you f***ing tell me where my argument goes wrong?

 

This card enables a lot of s*** in Nekroz, a deck that's already broken beyond belief. Main offender of this currently is Djinn. Djinn should be banned anyways.

 

And don't get me started on Clownblade since that deck doesn't yet exist in TCG.

Chain is powerful both it Nekroz and outside it. That is the point. Almost no deck doesn't benefit from it.

 

And 2 months. 2 months until Clownblade arrives. That's a pretty short timeline, and we know pretty much what's gonna happen when it does.

[ihop]

Nekroz are not "broken beyond belief", they're just the strongest deck which happen to have some broken combos, but Lavalval Chain has shown itself to be the catalyst and the reason for the most "unfair" plays in every deck it's been relevant, from allowing Infernity, Nekroz and Tellars to autowin turn 1, at least in certain matchups, as well as enabling all kinds of OTKs and FTKs. I wouldn't even think too much about its interactions in Clownblade because there at least it just creates powerful plays rather than downright unfair ones like 3 barrier pass, but even there it's very strong. Sure, you could argue that a different card is at fault in every situation here but there's a link between every combo and that's Lavalval Chain, and I'd rather just hit chain than hit 2 cards every format because they create some unfair combo with Lavalval Chain.

[CLG Klavier]

Chain is powerful both it Nekroz and outside it. That is the point. Almost no deck doesn't benefit from it.

 

And 2 months. 2 months until Clownblade arrives. That's a pretty short timeline, and we know pretty much what's gonna happen when it does.

Clownblade isn't tier 0 no matter how much you guys make it out to be. Yeah, the 3 Seraph/3 Norden variant is gonna be powerful as funk, but it's still just a rank 4 deck at core. An incredibly consistent one, but a rank 4 deck. It's not gonna be really BROKEN. Good as funk? Yes. But broken, no.

 

And is a lot of decks benefiting from a card bad? Things like Call of the Haunted, MST benefit almost every single deck as well at some point. And yes, I am aware of power disrepancy, just saying that "all decks can use it" doesn't work as an argument.

[Blake]

So can you funking tell me where my argument goes wrong?

 

This card enables a lot of sheet in Nekroz, a deck that's already broken beyond belief. Main offender of this currently is Djinn. Djinn should be banned anyways.

 

And don't get me started on Clownblade since that deck doesn't yet exist in TCG.

You argue that the card doesn't do anything, but you turn your nose up at any example of it doing something.

 

The fact that it's a main player in a good deck does not mean it isn't one of the major problems. Without Lavalval Chain enabling the Djinn, it isn't "broken beyond belief". Very strong, but not unbeatable. TCG doesn't have Nyarla, either, so if the deck doesn't have Nyarla or Lavalval Chain, the deck isn't half as strong. It doesn't have R4s to give it consistency and capability, instead just having them as potential answers. 

 

It removes a lot of the deck's longevity, making it a bit easier to kill as they don't stand as well.

 

I don't like Trishula or Djinn existing, but the more I think about it, the more I'd blame Chain for Djinn. Like it's been said, Djinn is a terrible card, it just happens to be broken when it's on demand. And you could argue a card lik that shouldn't exist... but that would be a Game Health argument, not an impact argument.

[CLG Klavier]

Nekroz are not "broken beyond belief", they're just the strongest deck which happen to have some broken combos, but Lavalval Chain has shown itself to be the catalyst and the reason for the most "unfair" plays in every deck it's been relevant, from allowing Infernity, Nekroz and Tellars to autowin turn 1, at least in certain matchups, as well as enabling all kinds of OTKs and FTKs. I wouldn't even think too much about its interactions in Clownblade because there at least it just creates powerful plays rather than downright unfair ones like 3 barrier pass, but even there it's very strong. Sure, you could argue that a different card is at fault in every situation here but there's a link between every combo and that's Lavalval Chain, and I'd rather just hit chain than hit 2 cards every format because they create some unfair combo with Lavalval Chain.

Ever thought you guys are overblowing the impact of this card? I mean, I know Konami's banlist decisions are often questionable, but don't you think they'd ban a card if it was THIS problematic a bit earlier? Plus their hit of Symbols of Heritage while unbanning Lonefire, and ban of Rulers as Dark Matter was coming out shows that nowadays, they DO know what's cooking and are trying to adjust accordingly.

 

So if anything, they should hit this before Clowns arrive if it's really looking THAT problematic.

 it just happens to be broken when it's on demand.

Is it just me or a lot of Nekroz lists lately are running Arma Knight and Mathematician? Sure, they don't give an access to Djinn as easy as this since you have to NS them and can't use Manju to search in the same turn, but it's still a piss easy access to Djinn.

[玄魔の王]

Clownblade isn't tier 0 no matter how much you guys make it out to be. Yeah, the 3 Seraph/3 Norden variant is gonna be powerful as f***, but it's still just a rank 4 deck at core. An incredibly consistent one, but a rank 4 deck. It's not gonna be really BROKEN. Good as f***? Yes. But broken, no.

 

And is a lot of decks benefiting from a card bad? Things like Call of the Haunted, MST benefit almost every single deck as well at some point. And yes, I am aware of power disrepancy, just saying that "all decks can use it" doesn't work as an argument.

I never said it was Tier 0, nor do I believe it to be. Doesn't mean Chain doesn't play a role, seeing as you can Detach 1 combo piece to mill the other and thus vomit up a free R4.

 

Also, "just a Rank 4 deck" isn't a great argument seeing how disproportionately powerful Rank 4 is.

[ihop]

Ever thought you guys are overblowing the impact of this card? I mean, I know Konami's banlist decisions are often questionable, but don't you think they'd ban a card if it was THIS problematic a bit earlier? Plus their hit of Symbols of Heritage while unbanning Lonefire, and ban of Rulers as Dark Matter was coming out shows that nowadays, they DO know what's cooking and are trying to adjust accordingly.

 

So if anything, they should hit this before Clowns arrive if it's really looking THAT problematic.

 

We're not overblowing the impact of this card - people are winning YCSes playing Exiled Force in 2015, clearly Lavalval Chain or something Lavalval Chain-related is having an impact on the metagame. A 3 Lavalval Chain deck won worlds last year, people were siding Dynatherium in Qliphort to make sure they get to Scout, people are playing Spell Canceller in a deck that absolutely cannot waste its normal summon because of Lavalval Chain, people are playing Gravekeeper's Commandant in Nekroz, etc etc. 

[CLG Klavier]

Sure. Lavalval Chain is having an impact on metagame due to giving piss easy access to Djinn in Nekroz. That's a fact.

 

So what about Arma Knight which can be found with RotA which the deck already runs, and possibly Mathematician? At least a few lists that topped the last ARG ran at least Arma Knight and I saw one with both of them in it.

[Blake]

Is it just me or a lot of Nekroz lists lately are running Arma Knight and Mathematician? Sure, they don't give an access to Djinn as easy as this since you have to NS them and can't use Manju to search in the same turn, but it's still a piss easy access to Djinn.

So you mean you give up more consistency for more copies of Djinn? I mean, yeah, they can be versatile, but it's Nekroz. You think they really have the roo mfor superfluous Normal Summons? Especially when they don't really have R4s to back it up without Nyarla/Chain.

[CLG Klavier]

So you mean you give up more consistency for more copies of Djinn? I mean, yeah, they can be versatile, but it's Nekroz. You think they really have the roo mfor superfluous Normal Summons? Especially when they don't really have R4s to back it up without Nyarla/Chain.

Those things are already being done and those lists are getting to top 16s.

[玄魔の王]

Sure. Lavalval Chain is having an impact on metagame due to giving piss easy access to Djinn in Nekroz. That's a fact.

 

So what about Arma Knight which can be found with RotA which the deck already runs, and possibly Mathematician? At least a few lists that topped the last ARG ran at least Arma Knight and I saw one with both of them in it.

Arma Knight and Mathematician are also problem cards, that's a fact. That has no bearing on whether or not Lavalval Chain is a problem card.

[Blake]

Those things are already being done and those lists are getting to top 16s.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

 

The point was that you're icnreasing your NS count in a deck where the NS is insanly valuable in order to win games. That is not comparable to playing the deck with no drawbacks for the same payoff.

 

Lavalval Chain eats an ED slot and rewards you for finding your -Jus and the means to put unicore on board. ArmaKnight eats deckspace, which is a lot more valuable, especially considering you're already running, like, 6 NS cards.

 

Arma and Math are cards that go against game health, anyways, but that's another argument altogether.

[CLG Klavier]

Arma Knight and Mathematician are also problem cards, that's a fact. That has no bearing on whether or not Lavalval Chain is a problem card.

I just mean that if you hit Chain, Nekroz still have those. So I assume you want to ban those 2 at the same time as you hit Chain?

[Maeriberii Haan]

This discussion is getting way too much out of topic.

 

Seriously guys.

 

Knock it off.

[ihop]

But the Djinn lock is only one aspect of what is making Chain good - there's still Spell Canceller and all sorts of other small ways to abuse Chain. Also, Armageddon Knight is only used because it doubles as a Djinn out, if you're looking to Djinn lock only you'd still much rather make it with Chain.

 

edit: OP said "because loops", there's not much to discuss about Blue-Blooded Oni without the loop and you can't talk about the loop without looking at everything that makes the loop up. If this isn't close enough to the topic there's not much to gain from this topic at all.

[Zauls]

 

Wasn't this topic about Blue-Blooded Oni?

[Maeriberii Haan]

Blue Blooded Oni and the loop related to it, yes.

[玄魔の王]

This discussion is getting way too much out of topic.

 

Seriously guys.

 

Knock it off.

Right, sorry, got ahead of myself.

 

So, since Oni's Xyz aptitudes are clear, what do people think of using it to make more Synchro shenanigans with Plaguespreader?