Zauls Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 OK, so after putting some more thought into it, I've thought a couple of other quite significant reasons that Towers Turbo is too good. Firstly, its a deck that likes to go first in a format where a lot of the meta likes to go second. This gives it the edge over Shaddoll and Nekroz, in particular; two very common matchups. Secondly, there's the fact that if you prepare for Towers Turbo, you're less well prepared for Nekroz. While I've been trying to perfect my Shaddolls for the new format, there is a definite trade-off between card choices that are good against Nekroz and ones that are good against Towers. MST, Ghost Ogre etc are good against Towers but terrible against Nekroz, whereas things like Veiler and Breakthrough skill are the other way round. It's difficult for a deck to be prepared for both. Basically its play style is the complete opposite of the other best decks so it has great matchups, especially game 1. These factors mean that it's extremely likely that the deck will win game 1, which also means that, even if it does lose game 2 due to going second and the opponent having outs, it will still have the advantage of going first game 3, which gives it a very important edge there. Game three, for a lot of decks, is a game of "draw Ghost Ogre or lose", especially for BA and somewhat for Shaddoll. I don't like how Towers Turbo has shaken up the metagame like this, especially because its just not fun to play against and basically turns the entire game to a game of chance. It's nearly as bad as the Djinn lock, IMO. The only limiting factor is that the deck has a bad matchup to the very best deck, but Nekroz isn't going to be as dominant as it was last format and other decks will be more highly represented than they were before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 OK, so after putting some more thought into it, I've thought a couple of other quite significant reasons that Towers Turbo is too good. Firstly, its a deck that likes to go first in a format where a lot of the meta likes to go second. This gives it the edge over Shaddoll and Nekroz, in particular; two very common matchups. Secondly, there's the fact that if you prepare for Towers Turbo, you're less well prepared for Nekroz. While I've been trying to perfect my Shaddolls for the new format, there is a definite trade-off between card choices that are good against Nekroz and ones that are good against Towers. MST, Ghost Ogre etc are good against Towers but terrible against Nekroz, whereas things like Veiler and Breakthrough skill are the other way round. It's difficult for a deck to be prepared for both. Basically its play style is the complete opposite of the other best decks so it has great matchups, especially game 1. These factors mean that it's extremely likely that the deck will win game 1, which also means that, even if it does lose game 2 due to going second and the opponent having outs, it will still have the advantage of going first game 3, which gives it a very important edge there. Game three, for a lot of decks, is a game of "draw Ghost Ogre or lose", especially for BA and somewhat for Shaddoll. I don't like how Towers Turbo has shaken up the metagame like this, especially because its just not fun to play against and basically turns the entire game to a game of chance. It's nearly as bad as the Djinn lock, IMO. The only limiting factor is that the deck has a bad matchup to the very best deck, but Nekroz isn't going to be as dominant as it was last format and other decks will be more highly represented than they were before.Jesus funking christ. Let's start with the fact that if you're not maining Breakthrough, you're doing things very wrong. Same for Veilers in this meta TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Jesus f***ing christ. Let's start with the fact that if you're not maining Breakthrough, you're doing things very wrong. Same for Veilers in this meta TBH. That's exactly my point... I'm saying that by maining Breakthrough and Veiler, which are good against other decks, you're ruining your Towers Turbo matchup, which is a big factor as to why the deck is as good as it is. People have to play cards that are bad against Towers Turbo so they can beat other decks. Also, your point is a very sweeping generalisation. Do you see Nekroz maining Breakthrough or Veiler? Or even Towers Turbo, now that you mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeriberii Haan Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Yeah sure, let's main veiler and breakthrough everywhere in a meta where at least two of the projected big top decks don't care at all about them. Kinda silly to dismiss everything he said just due to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Yeah sure, let's main veiler and breakthrough everywhere in a meta where at least two of the projected big top decks don't care at all about them. Kinda silly to dismiss everything he said just due to that.Not everywhere, just in Dolls, since he mentioned Dolls .-. Nekroz get kinda hindered by effect negation since no Valk nor Trish for them so they don't "not care at all". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeriberii Haan Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I'm referring about Qliphort and BA when I said those two decks. People run veiler to kill Trish mainly after all, with Deneb and similar cards as other incentive. And also, if we're talking about dolls, I kinda doubt that they'd go straight maining both Breakthrough and veiler post July. I mean, sure, the threat of Trish is still big, but we're facing a format where Nekroz would see less play, and thus, maining 3+ cards that would be subpar in the two other big matchup is not really ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I'm referring about Qliphort and BA when I said those two decks. People run veiler to kill Trish mainly after all, with Deneb and similar cards as other incentive. And also, if we're talking about dolls, I kinda doubt that they'd go straight maining both Breakthrough and veiler post July. I mean, sure, the threat of Trish is still big, but we're facing a format where Nekroz would see less play, and thus, maining 3+ cards that would be subpar in the two other big matchup is not really ideal.Against BA effect negation stops Virgil from spinning your stuff or them getting big mills with Dante. It's not subpar against BA. It has less targets, but it's as impacftul if you hit them. Well I don't know, I don't main Veilers because other engines take up too much space. Maining Ghost Rabbit is probablty better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 OK, so after putting some more thought into it, I've thought a couple of other quite significant reasons that Towers Turbo is too good. Firstly, its a deck that likes to go first in a format where a lot of the meta likes to go second. This gives it the edge over Shaddoll and Nekroz, in particular; two very common matchups. Secondly, there's the fact that if you prepare for Towers Turbo, you're less well prepared for Nekroz. While I've been trying to perfect my Shaddolls for the new format, there is a definite trade-off between card choices that are good against Nekroz and ones that are good against Towers. MST, Ghost Ogre etc are good against Towers but terrible against Nekroz, whereas things like Veiler and Breakthrough skill are the other way round. It's difficult for a deck to be prepared for both. Basically its play style is the complete opposite of the other best decks so it has great matchups, especially game 1. These factors mean that it's extremely likely that the deck will win game 1, which also means that, even if it does lose game 2 due to going second and the opponent having outs, it will still have the advantage of going first game 3, which gives it a very important edge there. Game three, for a lot of decks, is a game of "draw Ghost Ogre or lose", especially for BA and somewhat for Shaddoll. I don't like how Towers Turbo has shaken up the metagame like this, especially because its just not fun to play against and basically turns the entire game to a game of chance. It's nearly as bad as the Djinn lock, IMO. The only limiting factor is that the deck has a bad matchup to the very best deck, but Nekroz isn't going to be as dominant as it was last format and other decks will be more highly represented than they were before. Unless you're playing Shaddoll or BA you really don't need to stretch far to out towers, you're really not making your matchup much worse. Nekroz and Qli out it really easily. Nekroz still love to go second. Assuming your hand is not complete sheet it's really easy to Trish+Decisive which not only outs towers but limits their options in the future since you take a card out of hand and get rid of the Scout. Shaddoll have a problem, yes, but they also struggle against Volcanic HERO but that doesn't cause any issues because Volcanic HERO sucks against everything else. BA is the only deck that really needs to make itself worse to out Towers, but the deck is so good at grind games that it's actually possible to stall out for ages and just win with Nightmare Shark Barbar. You're right that the deck is a game of chance and is in essence a more resilient FTK, but I disagree that it's going to seriously impact the metagame. That's exactly my point... I'm saying that by maining Breakthrough and Veiler, which are good against other decks, you're ruining your Towers Turbo matchup, which is a big factor as to why the deck is as good as it is. People have to play cards that are bad against Towers Turbo so they can beat other decks. Also, your point is a very sweeping generalisation. Do you see Nekroz maining Breakthrough or Veiler? Or even Towers Turbo, now that you mention it. Why is this any different to regular Qliphort? They've always taken advantage of making 5-10 cards in the opponent's deck dead game 1 and winning game 1. I'm referring about Qliphort and BA when I said those two decks. People run veiler to kill Trish mainly after all, with Deneb and similar cards as other incentive. And also, if we're talking about dolls, I kinda doubt that they'd go straight maining both Breakthrough and veiler post July. I mean, sure, the threat of Trish is still big, but we're facing a format where Nekroz would see less play, and thus, maining 3+ cards that would be subpar in the two other big matchup is not really ideal. Veiler's awesome against BA if only to negate the one Tourguide. And I'd definitely still play Veiler and BTS, they still have advantages outside of effect negation, such as Veiler being a LIGHT and Breakthrough stopping things like Diamond and Unicore which threaten you. I actually kept Lanceas in games 2 and 3 of the Qliphort matchup just so that I had a LIGHT to fuse with, and if I wasn't playing those I'd have kept Veilers in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Yeah, a lot of decks don't have much trouble getting rid of the first Towers. Tellars make Crab King or run Honest, Nekroz do Nekroz things, Qli do Qli things. What you're forgetting is that as well as having an out to the first Towers, you also have to stop them dropping a second. Tellars in particular will have a lot of trouble answering two Towers. I suppose the main point is that Towers Turbo is not a nice part of the game and it shouldn't really exist. Turning the game entirely into a game of chance means you may as well sit at the table with your opponent and flip a coin. It is also the product of Wavering Eyes, which we've agreed is stupid and should probably be banned. Banning Wavering Eyes will get rid of this deck and stop anything like it from happening in the future, which is fine by me. Oh and while I'm talking about Wavering Eyes, that card alone makes Towers' Qli matchup a lot better. Games 2 and 3 they will keep one set whenever they can, so the Qli player has to hope they don't draw more than 1 copy or they're screwed. Oh and just a side note, Veiler/BTS don't stop Dante milling since it's a cost, so Virgil and Tour Guide are the only things Veiler is good against. Breakthrough still puts Dante back down to 1000 when it attacks, though, which is very useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 May Captain Obvious bless me with his magnificent insight when I say that Towers is the card of the format. Let his will and courage pour into me like a pitcher of sacred wine from Valhalla when I say that getting over it is hard. It's a shame that Jet won't be in TCG for a while, because that is also a Towers out for generic Syncho-based Decks in general. Though, the only relevant Decks that Synchro have other outs to Towers, so that makes it useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Yamiegg Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Wow Medivh, you've just been spouting stupidity on this thread... Even worse than me sometimes... My problem with Towers is not the fact that it's so hard to kill, it's that when you do kill it you've basically accomplished nothing, since they (presumably) have 3 Qlis locked and loaded in the Extra, 3 draws from Monolith and a fully set up Scale to just PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE with next turn. You need to either take out their P-Zones in the same turn or have some kind of other defense against those big machines coming to get you next turn, or you're funked anyway. You need to have 2 outs, and THAT, imo, is the problem. Considering the standalone power of the card, when you kill a Towers it should be hard for the Qli player to recover. They should have to pour their resources into it, just as you have to pour your resources into getting over it, or Konami should have just not made it so damn big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dramatic Crossroad Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Derail agains, but since someone mentioned "Share the pain" earlier, it got me thinking of old-school ways to bring down QliTowers: Recover from this!!! (-5,000) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutrality Man Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Derail agains, but since someone mentioned "Share the pain" earlier, it got me thinking of old-school ways to bring down QliTowers: Recover from this!!! (-5,000) Some blue scorpion and a giant gun? Mind at least naming the damn cards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerer Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Some blue scorpion and a giant gun? Mind at least naming the damn cards?Des Scissors and Buster Rancher Scissors has 1000 ATK and when it kills something, they take damage equal to the level x 500, I believe. Buster Rancher can only be equipped to a low power monster and increases its ATK by 2500 whenever it battles a monster with over 2500 ATK or DEF. I used to have both of 'em when I was younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TF2_The_Scout Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 This thing is such a pain to get rid of. Thankfully, we have Honest and XYZs that can run it over. Still, it's incredibly painful to get rid of because you pretty much have to out muscle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dramatic Crossroad Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Some blue scorpion and a giant gun? Mind at least naming the damn cards? Sorry, my bad. There is nothing damned about them, just they were from a different era, i suppose... This thing is such a pain to get rid of. Thankfully, we have Honest and XYZs that can run it over. Still, it's incredibly painful to get rid of because you pretty much have to out muscle it. A few Xyz, lot less than the non-Xyz monsters though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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