New TCG Banlist [08/04/2016]

[Dog King]

i remember one time i had 3 carts in hand and i kept them for a good while and he used royal tribute on me which he got from duality earlier and all my 3 carts were upstart goblin

next turn i used upstart goblin drew 3 bw summoned dem all and won

 

great story would read 10/10

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Then just play 47 cards. idgi

 

the odds of banishing all 3 Drivers through Cupidity, even at 40, or even 30 cards is extremely low, to the point where it isn't considerable, and running 47 cards is lowering that chance big time, while also lowering your chance of drawing Cupidity in the first place, or the field spell it was put in there to grab, (which he also runs /at 3/. There's no reason for upstart to be here logically.

 

Banishing all 3 Drivers, and Field Spells from Cupidity is astronomically low. Using 2 Cupidity back to back in a deck of 40 cards. Odds of banishing OR drawing all 6 copies of the 3 drivers and the 3 field spells is 3.5%. It is massively unlikely. (its 8.5% if calculated after the opening hand, and its turn 1). But again, this is only assuming 2 Cupidity are played back to back. And the probability is actually /less/ since it includes the draws as well, and realistically, this can't even be done at all since you can't use 2 Cupidity in a turn.

 

Using that for 47 cards (and consequently 42 after opening hand), you get: 2.5%, by adding 7 cards, he reduced the chance of banishing all copies by 6%, but he massively increased the chances of /not/ drawing the cards he's trying to get in the first place, all because he decided to include Cupidity in his build for random plusses. Nothing wrong with that, but running Upstart /as well/ (which effectively makes no difference if he just didn't run them at all, other than potential to "MAYBE" jar a probalility or two, but it is not likely enough to warrant the upstarts in the first place).

 

But again, this is assuming 2 are used back to back (which is impossible as its hard opt), so the chances are even /lower/ than the numbers I've already mentioned. Upstart makes no sense.

 

EDIT: Kid should run 3 Terraforming instead of 3 Upstart. Serves almost the same purpose as Upstart, but can immediately grab the field spell he appears to be so desperate on getting.

What about Feel Good Zone? Can Terra Grab those as well?

[Slinky]

What /about/ Feel Good Zone? The probability of grabbing it through upstart is astronomical too, its still better than 0, but the field spell is also vastly more important.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Upstart can grab another Upstart or perhaps a gold sarc or perhaps a cupidity, it adds up

[Slinky]

Which again leads to the converse argument "if the upstarts weren't there, you'd have drawn what you got with it normally".

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Which again leads to the converse argument "if the upstarts weren't there, you'd have drawn what you got with it normally".

The point is that by using upstart to artificially inflate your deck size without decreasing consistency, you will be left with a larger deck after resolving pot of cupidity.

 

The reasoning is ultimately sound, though it will only really have any effect if an upstart is banished for cupidity (otherwise your virtual decksize is still decreased for each upstart), and tbh the additional 7-10 cards do not make that extreme of a different e in the grand scheme of things, so I wouldn't say it is worth both the potential increase in opponent's LP, as well as the decreased consistency of a 40 card deck, with or without upstart.

 

Tl;dr they aren't strictly incorrect, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Resolving one FeelSafe for Omega basically pays for all three theoretical upstarts

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

:7" data-cid="6847050" data-time="1460571339">

Resolving one FeelSafe for Omega basically pays for all three theoretical upstarts

That doesn't change the fact that the deck would honestly operate just as well without the additional 10 cards. Rather than having the power play make up for losses caused by deck construction, it would just put you a leg up.

[Metalhead Dragon]

3) Konami doesn't care about Gren Maju. Gren Maju isn't meta nor sleeper rouge; Konami's banlist caters to the meta.

 

 

And there is the reason I do not play Yu-Gi-Oh regularly anymore. They really just dont care about letting other interesting decks function. I still remember when the banlist was only around to keep overpowered cards off the game. Cyber Stein was overpowered in its time, but do you really think it will mess up the game? They could easily edit its effect like they have with cards like Catapult Turtle and Dark Strike Fighter to keep it from damaging the game. Also the Last Warrior lock can easily be avoided by making the card state "This card can only be fusion summoned by the required monsters." I miss back during the 5ds era when almost any deck was easily playable, and it was like that before that too, which made the game interesting. People would always come up with smarter ways to run decks and cool ideas for just absolutely random decks, it was a fun time and it didnt seem as monotonous as the game is now. Konami is just like every other gaming company that matures, it just ends up not caring anymore, like you say, "Catering to the meta" because the meta is super interesting. Im surprised someone hasnt made a widely accepted custom banlist, that gives me ideas.

 

Call this not being explanitive or not, I dont care, apparently its soo bad.

 

Also to say that Monarchs got a hit with upstart is bogus, it really just means they can put in a Raigeki or another staple. Reasoning really doesnt need to be banned because Infernoids and plenty of other decks relied on that card, its not like some Monarch player is going to use it, that can get pretty predictable, so theres no point. Upstart was a thing that kept some of the 2nd tier decks as competitive as they were. Oh well I guess, bet its sure fun to see people playing the exact same decks at tournaments like always. Konami just loves limiting everyones chances of trying something new, and to go further into your "decks will get better with extra support", I highly doubt it, considering their tendencies with other things, there just going to ban or limit another highly vital card for the deck and kill it again.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

And there is the reason I do not play Yu-Gi-Oh regularly anymore. They really just dont care about letting other interesting decks function. I still remember when the banlist was only around to keep overpowered cards off the game. Cyber Stein was overpowered in its time, but do you really think it will mess up the game? They could easily edit its effect like they have with cards like Catapult Turtle and Dark Strike Fighter to keep it from damaging the game. Also the Last Warrior lock can easily be avoided by making the card state "This card can only be fusion summoned by the required monsters." I miss back during the 5ds era when almost any deck was easily playable, and it was like that before that too, which made the game interesting. People would always come up with smarter ways to run decks and cool ideas for just absolutely random decks, it was a fun time and it didnt seem as monotonous as the game is now. Konami is just like every other gaming company that matures, it just ends up not caring anymore, like you say, "Catering to the meta" because the meta is super interesting. Im surprised someone hasnt made a widely accepted custom banlist, that gives me ideas.

 

Call this not being explanitive or not, I dont care, apparently its soo bad.

 

 

You seem like you'd like OCG mate. Solid tier 2 decks that can give the top brass a run for their money. Wont say their banlist polices are perfect, but they do pull of sheet more often than tcg

[~~~~]

Upstart Goblin - Finally. The deck size if anything needs to be increased not decreased, adding another 1k LP means nothing. That's the logic that justified Snatch Steal back in the day, we're at the point in the game where an extra draw can usually offset a gift of 1k to the opponent. Unlike Chicken Game is honestly doesn't hurt the player either. If one needed to be banned, I would have swapped game and Upstart. Also thank god solitaire decks lost out in this. Really hoping OCG will follow suit eventually - A Great Limit

Urgh finally someone else agrees with me that Upstart should be banned.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Urgh finally someone else agrees with me that Upstart should be banned.

 

 

Upstart Goblin - Finally. The deck size if anything needs to be increased not decreased, adding another 1k LP means nothing. That's the logic that justified Snatch Steal back in the day, we're at the point in the game where an extra draw can usually offset a gift of 1k to the opponent. Unlike Chicken Game is honestly doesn't hurt the player either. If one needed to be banned,I would have swapped game and Upstart. Also thank god solitaire decks lost out in this. Really hoping OCG will follow suit eventually - A Great Limit

 

[VCR_CAT]

The deck size is fine where it is. Making the deck sizes bigger is just going to be an even bigger nightmare on consistency for a lot of decks. It turns the game into something where if a deck isn't able to function with acceptable consistency at 50 cards, it's not going to go anywhere. On top of that, it makes a lot of smaller archetypes completely impossible to build for, and makes a lot of decks that are lacking in support that depend on generic draw/thin engines also completely dysfunctional. 

 

If Upstart gets limited, I would at least appreciate it if Konami put some effort into adding more avenues for helping in consistency. No, they don't need to be as generic as Upstart or even just like Upstart; I'd be happy with anything that's reasonably functional and splashable.

 

I can understand why Upstart was hit; it's way too generic and makes the "Pot of Greed mistake" (having no niche what-so-ever), but I'm not happy about it not so much because I want Upstart specifically back, but because of how much it hurts a lot of decks that completely lack in cards in the S/T department to help prevent bricking hands.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The deck size is fine where it is. Making the deck sizes bigger is just going to be an even bigger nightmare on consistency for a lot of decks. It turns the game into something where if a deck isn't able to function with acceptable consistency at 50 cards, it's not going to go anywhere. On top of that, it makes a lot of smaller archetypes completely impossible to build for, and makes a lot of decks that are lacking in support that depend on generic draw/thin engines also completely dysfunctional. 

 

If Upstart gets limited, I would at least appreciate it if Konami put some effort into adding more avenues for helping in consistency. No, they don't need to be as generic as Upstart or even just like Upstart; I'd be happy with anything that's reasonably functional and splashable.

 

I can understand why Upstart was hit; it's way too generic and makes the "Pot of Greed mistake" (having no niche what-so-ever), but I'm not happy about it not so much because I want Upstart specifically back, but because of how much it hurts a lot of decks that completely lack in cards in the S/T department to help prevent bricking hands.

Most OCG decks already function optimally in the 40-45 zone. The only reason you don't see more decks above that is cause why go over 45 when the bloke next you can run a 40.

 

You don't even need draw power, the decks would just run more hand traps and staples. The situation OCG dolls are in where they have to somehow fit in  12 staples 6 hand traps and stay below 40 with a decent deck is the real problem. If you want YGO to slow the funk down and not repeat pepe format, something needs to change about the 40 card limit.

 

Now, yes decks will be slower, and likewise they will be slower to access the extra, so you can happily bump that up to 20. More decks won't have staplesickness so more decks can also complete so put the side to 20.

 

The ideal state for YGO is 

 

Deck Limit: 50+

ED limit: >/= 20

Side limit: >/= 20

-2 Mulligans

 

Limiting of relevant generic draw power cards (didn't y'all laugh at Hoban when he wanted upstart limited) 

[VCR_CAT]

Most OCG decks already function optimally in the 40-45 zone. The only reason you don't see more decks above that is cause why go over 45 when the bloke next you can run a 40.

 

Posting a sheet PSYFrame decklist off of DR and acting like it's super great isn't evidence that 50 card decks are super great across the board or even liked for a lot of decks. Also, please stop trying to translate OCG mindsets into a TCG conversation. Just because OCG players like doing it, doesn't mean TCG players like doing it and that our reasons for not doing it are bad.

 

 

You don't even need draw power, the decks would just run more hand traps and staples. 

 

I died a little on the inside reading this. Just tossing in as many limited cards to fill the spots hardly does anything for a lot of decks. For something that has 1-2 empty slots; maybe 3 on a stretch, it works to just toss in a couple staples and call it a day. For a deck that utterly bricks if it doesn't open 2 or more monsters, that's not going to solve sheet.

 

 

 

If you want YGO to slow the f*** down and not repeat pepe format, something needs to change about the 40 card limit.

 

I don't. Overall game speed and deck limit had nothing to do with Pepe's dominance. Pepe was the result of specific cards that Konami didn't do a very good job on designing, not because the decks can be 40 cards big.

 

 

My ideal state for YGO is 

 

ftfy

 

 

Deck Limit: 50+

ED limit: >/= 20

Side limit: >/= 20

-2 Mulligans

 

This sounds awful. This sounds like a terrible gamestate that pretty much you really want and then blindly applied that thought process to mean "Because I like it, then that means it's what's best for the game!"

 

 

 

didn't y'all laugh at Hoban when he wanted upstart limited

 

No.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Posting a sheet PSYFrame decklist off of DR and acting like it's super great isn't evidence that 50 card decks are super great across the board or even liked for a lot of decks. Also, please stop trying to translate OCG mindsets into a TCG conversation. Just because OCG players like doing it, doesn't mean TCG players like doing it and that our reasons for not doing it are bad.

 

 

 

I died a little on the inside reading this. Just tossing in as many limited cards to fill the spots hardly does anything for a lot of decks. For something that has 1-2 empty slots; maybe 3 on a stretch, it works to just toss in a couple staples and call it a day. For a deck that utterly bricks if it doesn't open 2 or more monsters, that's not going to solve sheet.

 

 

 

 

I don't. Overall game speed and deck limit had nothing to do with Pepe's dominance. Pepe was the result of specific cards that Konami didn't do a very good job on designing, not because the decks can be 40 cards big.

 

 

 

ftfy

 

 

 

This sounds awful. This sounds like a terrible gamestate that pretty much you really want and then blindly applied that thought process to mean "Because I like it, then that means it's what's best for the game!"

 

 

 

 

No.

It's really not though. What I want is a return to 2014, I'm quite content with a 40 card deck and 50 cards places just as much of a burden on me.

 

Now to go through the list, try reading mate, I said 40-45, which is the usual OCG ratio with the avg being around 42, never did I say 50 was the right idea. 50 being the right idea hinges on the fact you have "need to get cards" and are running Cupidity.

 

What mindset am I applying to TCG? That staple sickness is a thing? Well maybe if Raigeki wasn't the only staple candidate and TCG had a banlist that would let more tier 2 decks compete (ie hit all the tier 1 deck in real ways, not just massacre the top dog and give the other two superficial hits), then you would see that slower decks like Dolls do get a boost from running Staples or Handtraps...would be nice to see...if only Dolls had access to said staples

 

Technically we're all dying a little every second we live, so don't worry too much

 

If the TCG mindset is 40 or bust, then yeh I will criticize that, because sometimes there is not "worst" card you can cut. But I'm well aware that the vast majority of TCG players don't have such a tunnel vision with regard to deck building and will go over 40 if the situation calls for it. Maybe I'm just disagreeing with your mindset.

 

It's not even just pepe...look at Monarch, Kozmo, and BA even once those decks get rolling there's really not stopping them. That's ball rolling down the hill nature is not good for the game. You didn't always get the two card you wanted to make combo go in Goat. Sometimes you drew a meta without a goat...you just deal with it and can relax knowing that the chance of your opponent pumping out 8k isn't as likely

 

I honestly am perfectly happy with 40:15:15 

 

And that's a funking lie, 90% of TCG mocked Hoban for putting Upstart to 1 in his list, granted he also unbanned Pot of Greed

[VCR_CAT]

It's really not though. What I want is a return to 2014, I'm quite content with a 40 card deck and 50 cards places just as much of a burden on me.

 

Now to go through the list, try reading mate, I said 40-45, which is the usual OCG ratio with the avg being around 42, never did I say 50 was the right idea. 50 being the right idea hinges on the fact you have "need to get cards" and are running Cupidity.

 

What mindset am I applying to TCG? That staple sickness is a thing? Well maybe if Raigeki wasn't the only staple candidate and TCG had a banlist that would let more tier 2 decks compete (ie hit all the tier 1 deck in real ways, not just massacre the top dog and give the other two superficial hits), then you would see that slower decks like Dolls do get a boost from running Staples or Handtraps...would be nice to see...if only Dolls had access to said staples

 

Technically we're all dying a little every second we live, so don't worry too much

 

If the TCG mindset is 40 or bust, then yeh I will criticize that, because sometimes there is not "worst" card you can cut. But I'm well aware that the vast majority of TCG players don't have such a tunnel vision with regard to deck building and will go over 40 if the situation calls for it. Maybe I'm just disagreeing with your mindset.

 

It's not even just pepe...look at Monarch, Kozmo, and BA even once those decks get rolling there's really not stopping them. That's ball rolling down the hill nature is not good for the game. You didn't always get the two card you wanted to make combo go in Goat. Sometimes you drew a meta without a goat...you just deal with it and can relax knowing that the chance of your opponent pumping out 8k isn't as likely

 

I honestly am perfectly happy with 40:15:15 

 

And that's a f***ing lie, 90% of TCG mocked Hoban for putting Upstart to 1 in his list, granted he also unbanned Pot of Greed

 

A return to July 2015 would actually be way better than 2014; granted, opposed to the players that wax nostalgia for past formats (such as you), I like to see something new come ahead. July 2015 was great, but that doesn't mean we can't have another great banlist.

 

So 50 isn't the right idea but 50 is what you're suggesting every time as the change...

 

the OCG mindset you're applying is the whole power-card mindset that I'm actually not a fan of at all. It's the mindset that a given player should shove as many power cards in their deck as they can, regardless if it's that great of an idea or not. The OCG mindset vs. the TCG mindset could be summarized pretty well as options vs. optimizations; but not to that big of an extreme.

 

my mindset in particular isn't "40 or bust"; my mindset in particular is "Only go above 40 if you absolutely need to". But, this isn't really the time to talk about my mindset for deckbuilding.

 

Monarchs and BA are the only two decks out of those you listed that I would say really snowball in particular as the duel goes on. Monarchs will do it regardless of winning or losing, from my experience, while BA depend more on the opponent not interrupting or overthrowing their fields (hence why most builds have historically run a LOT of backrow). Consistency and speed is not the same as value and grinding. If you want the prime example of why this is the case; just look at Igknights. Yes, the TCG meta is in a very grindy state with Monarchs and BA. No, this doesn't have to do with speed. No, I actually really do not like the up-coming format, nor did I like the previous one at all. No, that had nothing to do with the speed of the format.

 

I was answering "no" as in "no, I did not laugh at him limiting Upstart."

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

JS, engine based decks such as HAT and PKBA have a generally lower need for cards like upstart, as they can more easily Maindeck 40 good cards. With that in mind, upstart at 1 helps to encourage such deck building, which I think to be a good thing. It helps turn the game from combo-based to synergy-based, which is a good direction for YGO as a whole, IMO.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

A return to July 2015 would actually be way better than 2014; granted, opposed to the players that wax nostalgia for past formats (such as you), I like to see something new come ahead. July 2015 was great, but that doesn't mean we can't have another great banlist.

 

So 50 isn't the right idea but 50 is what you're suggesting every time as the change...

 

the OCG mindset you're applying is the whole power-card mindset that I'm actually not a fan of at all. It's the mindset that a given player should shove as many power cards in their deck as they can, regardless if it's that great of an idea or not. The OCG mindset vs. the TCG mindset could be summarized pretty well as options vs. optimizations; but not to that big of an extreme.

 

my mindset in particular isn't "40 or bust"; my mindset in particular is "Only go above 40 if you absolutely need to". But, this isn't really the time to talk about my mindset for deckbuilding.

 

Monarchs and BA are the only two decks out of those you listed that I would say really snowball in particular as the duel goes on. Monarchs will do it regardless of winning or losing, from my experience, while BA depend more on the opponent not interrupting or overthrowing their fields (hence why most builds have historically run a LOT of backrow). Consistency and speed is not the same as value and grinding. If you want the prime example of why this is the case; just look at Igknights. Yes, the TCG meta is in a very grindy state with Monarchs and BA. No, this doesn't have to do with speed. No, I actually really do not like the up-coming format, nor did I like the previous one at all. No, that had nothing to do with the speed of the format.

 

I was answering "no" as in "no, I did not laugh at him limiting Upstart."

Why return to 2015? Especially July TCG. Nekroz were by far the dominant deck because TCG did not hit the deck properly....and triple construct? And July OCG while not nearly as polarized still sucked as a format because they decided that Ptolo needed to live a couple more format.

 

2014 was a healthy Year of Rulers, Chronofacts, Heros and Dolls in OCG and TCG's assortment of decks we'll likely never see again thanks to power creep. 2014 was an example of skillful formats and good banlists. Something we haven't seen recently (well maybe the OCG April 2016 one)

 

50 just seems like a nice rounded number, and while I prefer 45, PEPE willingly ran 45 in their prime so I'm a little nervous. Then again, KoJ did post an apology assuring us that PEPE would not occur again.

 

Why would you NOT play powercards when you can? TCG doesn't do it cause the only power spells y'all have left are Hole, Charge, and Geki. Seeing that 3/4 top decks float...it's really only charge that has any power. TCG doesn't go the OCG route cause the banlist wont let them. Running 40+ to accommodate power is clearly the optimal choice

 

Monarchs, BA...Kozmo? Strawman and Town...hell even things like Shiranui...once you get the double Omega set up it's just Mezuki'ng for +'s. Those types of decks aren't really healthy. Something like Nekroz or Dolls is cause they go like a bellcurve. The end game in both Kroz and Dolls are limited by how much you over extended in the mid and early game. Monarch, BA, Kozmo and a few other cough pendulum cough reward you for that over extension.

 

You're accusing me of being a nostalgia hype'r. I guess, but I'm not ashamed to say that the last 2 OCG formats, (maybe even the last 4) have been nightmares in terms of ceilings, resurgence and speed. And no, I won't miss seeing that gone.

 

Atleast we are in agreement that this new TCG format isn't anything wonderful. It might be a grindgame, but playing the lesser of evils with Pendulums, Narchs, BA, and Kozmo isn't my cup of tea. If we had it at 50, Narchs would brick more and wouldn't have their insta out in Storm4th. BA might not be able to make dante with as much +potential (milling BA). Pendulums would have a harder time getting to the major pals. etc.

 

Edit: you know what, the idea you're describing isn't even OCG. If it were you'd see Reborn and Avarice in every deck....

[VCR_CAT]

Why return to 2015? Especially July TCG. Nekroz were by far the dominant deck because TCG did not hit the deck properly....and triple construct? And July OCG while not nearly as polarized still sucked as a format because they decided that Ptolo needed to live a couple more format.

 

2014 was a healthy Year of Rulers, Chronofacts, Heros and Dolls in OCG and TCG's assortment of decks we'll likely never see again thanks to power creep. 2014 was an example of skillful formats and good banlists. Something we haven't seen recently (well maybe the OCG April 2016 one)

 

50 just seems like a nice rounded number, and while I prefer 45, PEPE willingly ran 45 in their prime so I'm a little nervous. Then again, KoJ did post an apology assuring us that PEPE would not occur again.

 

Why would you NOT play powercards when you can? TCG doesn't do it cause the only power spells y'all have left are Hole, Charge, and Geki. Seeing that 3/4 top decks float...it's really only charge that has any power. TCG doesn't go the OCG route cause the banlist wont let them. Running 40+ to accommodate power is clearly the optimal choice

 

Monarchs, BA...Kozmo? Strawman and Town...hell even things like Shiranui...once you get the double Omega set up it's just Mezuki'ng for +'s. Those types of decks aren't really healthy. Something like Nekroz or Dolls is cause they go like a bellcurve. The end game in both Kroz and Dolls are limited by how much you over extended in the mid and early game. Monarch, BA, Kozmo and a few other cough pendulum cough reward you for that over extension.

 

You're accusing me of being a nostalgia hype'r. I guess, but I'm not ashamed to say that the last 2 OCG formats, (maybe even the last 4) have been nightmares in terms of ceilings, resurgence and speed. And no, I won't miss seeing that gone.

 

Atleast we are in agreement that this new TCG format isn't anything wonderful. It might be a grindgame, but playing the lesser of evils with Pendulums, Narchs, BA, and Kozmo isn't my cup of tea. If we had it at 50, Narchs would brick more and wouldn't have their insta out in Storm4th. BA might not be able to make dante with as much +potential (milling BA). Pendulums would have a harder time getting to the major pals. etc.

 

Edit: you know what, the idea you're describing isn't even OCG. If it were you'd see Reborn and Avarice in every deck....

 

July 2015, specifically, was the final list before the TCG made a bunch of hits to push Kozmos to the front. July 2015, specifically, was when the meta had a really strong variety. Nekroz was top, yes, but I don't mind Nekroz as a top deck when Releaser wasn't a thing. Construct was at 3, sure, but Shaddolls were bringing up 3rd. Simply put, it was the last list before Konami went "How can we make more money off of Kozmos?" and hit everything better than them to do so.

 

I don't run power cards all the time because my mindset when deckbuilding is putting functionality and consistency first. In my list of priorities, I make sure to get the deck's essentials to run down pat first, and then if I have room I put in power cards that fit the deck's strategies and needs. I run minimal backrow in a lot of decks because a lot of my decks have disruption plays inherently in the monsters or other cards I'm getting out; such as Derricrane on 81, or being able to search out Fog Blade. The only time I filled in space with a lot of power cards was SQPK, and that's because with the aforementioned Upstart and Chicken Game hits, I had three empty spots in the deck and had to do a lot of reworking to try and keep things as consistent as before and as potent. Overall, though, my mindset for deckbuilding more or less ignores staples unless I happen to have some empty space left over.

 

The other reasoning is that I don't want to rely on power cards. If you recall any of the Trains builds that topped in the OCG back in 2014, you'll remember that they were absolute sheet. They ran Planet Pathfinder at 3 and other garbage cards; the builds were just utter garbage across the board. In fact, the only reason they topped at all, I'm convinced, is because they all ran Skill Drain and Vanity's Emptiness at 3 apiece in the maindeck. I'm not saying I won't run power cards ever, but I am saying that if I want my deck to be good, I want it to be good because it was built well and not because I just slapped a bunch of power cards in there.

 

It sounds like Omega is more of a problem than the decks themselves. And again, does that have to do with speed, or does that have to do with high-value plays snowballing over time? Grinding has nothing to do with how fast a deck moves, but how fuel-efficient it is. Overall your complaints sound more involved with the latter than the former.

 

Also, I've seen Reborn in pretty much every OCG build I've looked at so far (which is a lot).

[Slinky]

JS, engine based decks such as HAT and PKBA have a generally lower need for cards like upstart, as they can more easily Maindeck 40 good cards. With that in mind, upstart at 1 helps to encourage such deck building, which I think to be a good thing. It helps turn the game from combo-based to synergy-based, which is a good direction for YGO as a whole, IMO.

 

I know I'm in the minority here, but I agree with this. I funking loved HAT format, and really wish it was back. All we need is a Moralltach Semi-Limit and I'll be satisfied. If decks are based around synergy, then you don't really need consistency-based cards, unless its a means of recycling (recycling Ice/Fire hand etc. to keep them going), because you can pretty much just play what comes up and be mostly fine. Its combo-based decks or decks that adhere to a very specific strategy that end up bricking really badly (Dark Magicians as an example, if either Eternal Soul or Dark Magic Circle goes away (backrow removal etc.), or you just don't get a way to get a Dark Magician, you've effectively bricked really hard).

 

Likewise, for a combo-based example, Synchrons are very heavy combo-based, and as such they load up on things to increase that consistency, and /still/ brick. And if they don't get that combo right away, they tend to fail, because they run very little, if any, backrow because all the space is taken up by the consistency boosters. This wasn't really prominent in the Synchro-era because everyone was in the same boat, but now that there are multiple types of relevant summoning, this flaw has become a huge glaring problem.

 

Back in Goat Format, you could easily just play whatever came up, not because of synergy, but because there really wasn't anything else you /could/ do. Sure, there were some comboes (Usually involving Metamorphosis and a Goat Token/Soul Exchange, or both), but it ultimately didn't really matter much, because Soul Exchange/Metamorphosis/Scapegoat had usages outside of the combo (Metamorphosis could tribute a level 5 for Dark Balter, or a level 6 for Ryu-Senshi), Soul Exchange had Monarchs and Airknight Parshath to use with, and Scapegoat was just a means of forming a defense.

 

Nowadays, its like everything has to be combo-oriented to be effective now. "Oh hey, I played this card, now I get to do a string of a dozen other moves in sequence and I can't do sheet unless I pull it off!" Ex. offenders being Madolche and Metalphosis (although these have consistency packed in, in that they have a dozen ways to pull off the combo, though they are still effectively screwed if it gets interrupted). With the other type being "adheres to a very specific strategy". Dark Magicians I already mentioned, but Kozmo is another one. If Kozmo didn't have target immunity, they'd be full shite, because their game-plan consists of getting pilot, summoning it, and hoping to god it doesn't get its summon or effect negated, then banish for a ship you hope you have in your hand. They have means of mitigating this, but its still unhealthy deck design because it leads to multiple ways you can brick (all pilots, all ships, or nothing at all).

 

I actually forgot what my point was tbh, but Synergy-based decks are much more fun to play than Combo-based or playstyle-oriented because the chances of bricking are astronomically lessened.

[VCR_CAT]

JS, engine based decks such as HAT and PKBA have a generally lower need for cards like upstart, as they can more easily Maindeck 40 good cards. With that in mind, upstart at 1 helps to encourage such deck building, which I think to be a good thing. It helps turn the game from combo-based to synergy-based, which is a good direction for YGO as a whole, IMO.

 

This I agree on. Engine-based and hybrid decks are a lot of fun to build, and it's incredibly interesting to see what synergies can be dug up to fill a given archetype's weakpoints and see what blends together. I guess just what annoys me is that SQPK, my hybrid-engine deck, is that kind of a deck; but it REALLY needed Chicken Game and 3 E-Tele's to really function at a solid consistency from duel to duel. Upstart was my back-up, but having those three empty spots suddenly pop up was not looking good for the deck, and I really needed to put some work in to get it back to a position where it'll function at relatively the same level. Although, even then, I'm not totally confident it will be as good despite these changes.

[ihop]

I think the other issue with Upstart is that it encourages not only combo-based decks but also these "1-card decks" which have a substantially higher chance of winning if they open a single given card. Qliphort's the prime example of this and I found the deck horrible to play and play against just because of how much opening Scout polarised the game. If limiting Upstart leads to a fall in those sort of decks I am all for that.

[IQuitDolphin]

I think the other issue with Upstart is that it encourages not only combo-based decks but also these "1-card decks" which have a substantially higher chance of winning if they open a single given card. Qliphort's the prime example of this and I found the deck horrible to play and play against just because of how much opening Scout polarised the game. If limiting Upstart leads to a fall in those sort of decks I am all for that.

I didn't know Hearthstone had Upstart and Scout.

[Rest in Piss YCMaker]

I didn't know Hearthstone had Upstart and Scout.

 

Was this really a good enough line to warrant being posted 2 months later. Be honest with yourself.