Upstart Goblin

[Blake]

What. How are the decks that ftk not the problem. How is one of the draw power cards the problem in an ftk that would be made impossible with the banning of one other card. Every deck COULD use it, but it's not a problem engine if it's not actually causing problems. Kill Equalizer/Explosion, and then what. That deck can never exist again. Kill Blaze Fenix, there you go, both non-Exodia ftks that currently exist are no longer possible.

 

Take away the ftk and it's just an engine that boosts consistency of, as I've said in every post, decks that can't inherently do it themselves, and with a field spell that you have to get off the field before your opponent gets a use of it, which itself requires a degree of investment.

It was causing problems in Monarchs, so what is your point? Did you ever consider that there can be more than one problem, and that you can't just scream "FTK DID IT!" to defend another problem?

 

That's like screaming Pendulum Sorcerer did it in order to defend Monkeyboard, or the opposite. It doesn't work. Problems are not guaranteed to be only one part.

 

Boosting it by removing a 5th of the deck is funking dumb. Even decks that CAN do it themselves forego the extra slots at times because 32 cards is a lot better than 40, especially when there is 0 condition to this occuring, outside of... MST?

[Hello my name is Enguin]

It was causing problems in Monarchs, so what is your point? Did you ever consider that there can be more than one problem, and that you can't just scream "FTK DID IT!" to defend another problem?

 

That's like screaming Pendulum Sorcerer did it in order to defend Monkeyboard, or the opposite. It doesn't work. Problems are not guaranteed to be only one part.

 

Boosting it by removing a 5th of the deck is funking dumb. Even decks that CAN do it themselves forego the extra slots at times because 32 cards is a lot better than 40, especially when there is 0 condition to this occuring, outside of... MST?

 

I'm not screaming shite at all, I'm stating my position on it with that as what I believed the most pertinent example. The archetypes and/or decks that benefit so much from Chicken Race that it's getting considered for a ban at all should be hit rather than Upstart and the like that only increase the speed at which they function, because again it just pushes the problem to the side until a new engine crops up to replace the one that was killed.

 

We aren't going to agree on this and I understand I'm apparently in a minority on this in particular but that's that.

 

Equalizer isn't a problem.

 

If we're going down the route of banning cards seen as degenerate then a card that has no use outside of an FTK should be banned.

[Blake]

I'm not screaming shite at all, I'm stating my position on it with that as what I believed the most pertinent example. The archetypes and/or decks that benefit so much from Chicken Race that it's getting considered for a ban at all should be hit rather than Upstart and the like that only increase the speed at which they function, because again it just pushes the problem to the side until a new engine crops up to replace the one that was killed.

 

We aren't going to agree on this and I understand I'm apparently in a minority on this in particular but that's that.

It's called hyperbole. Trying to undermine hyperbole doesn't exactly help your point.

 

No. It has been proven that hitting Monarchs' problem cards is not enough to stop the deck. As such, TCG is trying a different route, which still very much hits the deck, but also pre-emptively hits Odd-Eyes Pendulums and, possibly, Blue-Eyes.

 

It's not pushing a problem aside if the engine is a problem.

 

I just don't get how you can ignore that running a deck that is 4/5th the size of the opponent's is dumb, considering how much more potent your every draw becomes.

[Hello my name is Enguin]

It's called hyperbole. Trying to undermine hyperbole doesn't exactly help your point.

 

No. It has been proven that hitting Monarchs' problem cards is not enough to stop the deck. As such, TCG is trying a different route, which still very much hits the deck, but also pre-emptively hits Odd-Eyes Pendulums and, possibly, Blue-Eyes.

 

It's not pushing a problem aside if the engine is a problem.

 

I just don't get how you can ignore that running a deck that is 4/5th the size of the opponent's is dumb, considering how much more potent your every draw becomes.

 

Look, pal. I think that a +0 card which isn't a searcher and a pseudo +1 that needs to be removed the turn it's used, whose most common and banlist-relevant appearance is in a deck that has 3 searchable recyclable 1-sided pseudo-Vanity's', 3 searchable recyclable non-target non-destruction removal cards, 3 of a searchable recyclable self-searching draw card that thins by 2/3 and so forth, are not the cards that need hitting if that deck is indeed the target.

 

Leaving Monarchs out of it, Upstart is a blind draw that heals your opponent 1000. Chicken Race is a blind draw that drains you 1000. You start creating a life point disparity and if you don't remove the card your opponent can draw off it you're in a position where you're easier to kill and your opponent is harder for you to kill. Both are in essence a +0 because unless Chicken Race leaves the field your opponent will draw off it and level it out. Yes, they are part of a strong generic draw engine and it enables or strengthens stupid sheet sometimes. But you can go after the stupid sheet as and when it appears, or you can kill a set of cards that have uses far beyond the occasional shitty ones and not have to deal with it.

 

I, personally, would prefer the former. I'm assuming you'd prefer the latter. That is all there is to it from my perspective. You can think my attitude is stupid or ignorant or I haven't a clue what I'm talking about, and that's fine, because it probably is in fairness. But really I'm fairly set in this way of thinking, not unwaveringly, but firmly enough that on this particular point I'm not going to change my mind. I think both these cards, and Upstart in particular, are/were perfectly fine at 3.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

a card that has no use outside of an FTK should be banned.

Chicken game is used outside of FTKs, though..?

 

TCG doesn't ban cards on principle. It bans on effect. Equalizer is sheet, so it doesn't need to be banned.

[Hello my name is Enguin]

Chicken game is used outside of FTKs, though..?

 

Yes...? Quantums do, D/D/Ds can, general rogue is helped hugely by it. Any combo deck that wants to go for a certain play or set of plays can or does use the engine to access them quicker.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Yes...? Quantums do, D/D/Ds can, general rogue is helped hugely by it. Any combo deck that wants to go for a certain play or set of plays can or does use the engine to access them quicker.

That is exactly my point. How many relevant decks is Equalizer used in, by comparison? Cards don't get banned sheerly for being "unhealthy". That just isn't how the game works.

[Hello my name is Enguin]

That is exactly my point. How many relevant decks is Equalizer used in, by comparison? Cards don't get banned sheerly for being "unhealthy". That just isn't how the game works.

 

I... gave 1 deck specifically that is somewhat relevant in Quantums. The majority of D/D/Ds aren't TCG and apart from Monarchs it's generally random sheet using it. So the score on relevant decks for Game vs Equalizer is about 2-1, probably more accurate to say 1-0. Like... there's no real conclusion to draw from that.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I... gave 1 deck specifically that is somewhat relevant in Quantums. The majority of D/D/Ds aren't TCG and apart from Monarchs it's generally random sheet using it. So the score on relevant decks for Game vs Equalizer is about 2-1, probably more accurate to say 1-0. Like... there's no real conclusion to draw from that.

The. Banning. Had. Nothing. To. Do. With. Equalizer. That isn't how the TCG banlist works. It was banned because of the consistency it gives to decks such as Monarch (which is positioned to be among the top 2 even without this) and Quantum, which have a habit of suddenly winning because of god hands that chicken game increases the frequency of.

 

Life Equalizer F/OTK was a mediocre deck that made a lot of people dislike this card and call for its banning, but is not the actual reason, as it really hasn't done enough to the meta to constitute a hit, by the standards shown for TCG banlists over the last several years.

[Blake]

Look, pal. I think that a +0 card which isn't a searcher and a pseudo +1 that needs to be removed the turn it's used, whose most common and banlist-relevant appearance is in a deck that has 3 searchable recyclable 1-sided pseudo-Vanity's', 3 searchable recyclable non-target non-destruction removal cards, 3 of a searchable recyclable self-searching draw card that thins by 2/3 and so forth, are not the cards that need hitting if that deck is indeed the target.

 

Leaving Monarchs out of it, Upstart is a blind draw that heals your opponent 1000. Chicken Race is a blind draw that drains you 1000. You start creating a life point disparity and if you don't remove the card your opponent can draw off it you're in a position where you're easier to kill and your opponent is harder for you to kill. Both are in essence a +0 because unless Chicken Race leaves the field your opponent will draw off it and level it out. Yes, they are part of a strong generic draw engine and it enables or strengthens stupid sheet sometimes. But you can go after the stupid sheet as and when it appears, or you can kill a set of cards that have uses far beyond the occasional shitty ones and not have to deal with it.

 

I, personally, would prefer the former. I'm assuming you'd prefer the latter. That is all there is to it from my perspective. You can think my attitude is stupid or ignorant or I haven't a clue what I'm talking about, and that's fine, because it probably is in fairness. But really I'm fairly set in this way of thinking, not unwaveringly, but firmly enough that on this particular point I'm not going to change my mind. I think both these cards, and Upstart in particular, are/were perfectly fine at 3.

http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

 

Use this. Calculate the probability of drawing a card at 3 (much less with searchers and sheet) in 40 cards and then 32.

 

Let's do a 5 card hand, 40 cards, and then do 32 cards. We'll user chances of finding a given Performapal (Pendulum Sorcerer) without doing more than an NS/scale set.

 

3 Monkeyboard, 3 Joker, 3 Sorc.

 

40 cards - 74.18% chance of opening at least 1 copy.

32 cards - 83.29% chance of opening at least 1 copy.

 

That's a lot of difference. Let's lower it, though, for more effect. A 3-of, let's say Twin Twister.

 

40 cards - 33.76% chance of opening 1+ copy.

32 cards - 41.03% chance of opening 1+ copy.

 

This, too, is a big jump. As big? No, but still reasonably large.

 

Being a +0 is not inherently fair, and it's rather poor logic to argue based on that alone. The statistics don't lie that these "+0s" make a big impact when they accumulate.

 

Again, Upstart is debatable... Chicken Game's track record is not.

The. Banning. Had. Nothing. To. Do. With. Equalizer. That isn't how the TCG banlist works. It was banned because of the consistency it gives to decks such as Monarch (which is positioned to be among the top 2 even without this) and Quantum, which have a habit of suddenly winning because of god hands that chicken game increases the frequency of.

 

Life Equalizer F/OTK was a mediocre deck that made a lot of people dislike this card and call for its banning, but is not the actual reason, as it really hasn't done enough to the meta to constitute a hit, by the standards shown for TCG banlists over the last several years.

tbh it's probably 

 

PKBA

Kozmo

Monarch

Pendulum and Atlantean...?

 

Based on current TCG.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

tbh it's probably 

 

PKBA

Kozmo

Monarch

Pendulum and Atlantean...?

 

Based on current TCG.

i haven't played in months and forgot pkba was a thing, but my point still stands.

[Slinky]

Chicken Game wasn't a hit solely for Monarchs. It was a hit designed to spread across multiple decks.

The same principle applies with Upstart. The power creep has gotten to the point where most decks have multiple searchers and the extra draw power is making things too strong.

[IQuitDolphin]

Dolphin coming through with his worthless opinion!!!
 
My personal viewpoint is that if a deck is powerful, it's usually caused by either:

- The engine (consisting of either 1 or multiple cards) that fuels the deck.
- The archetype itself.

Engines speed up the deck, add additional consistency, introduce power plays, and overall make the deck more dynamic and flexible. The archetype is the actual set of cards that have predefined synergy with each other as prescribed by Konami. Konami regularly introduces new engines and archetypes regularly, and the ones that do come out of Konami's workshop are either a) extremely potent or b) lackluster. When a lackluster archetype does come out, however, they can easily be boosted by existing engines that could be considered potent (ex. Shiranui using existing Zombie support, or Gishki w/ Chicken Game and Upstart Goblin).
​
​If an engine is so powerful that it propels a deck into tier 1 levels, then it's most likely the engine at fault and not the actual archetype. Monarchs are an extremely linear archetype with a predictable playstyle and inherent inconsistency, and the "Chicken Game Engine", as people call it, gave the deck the consistency it needed. Monarchs have been sitting quietly at around Top 16-32 at around the time it was released, and it has since propelled up to Top 8-16 (albeit at low numbers) after newer engines such as Chicken Game, Quantams and Reasoning were discovered and implemented. The deck's archetype was inherently weak, and so it used engines to solve the deck's problems, which was its inconsistency. Now, if the archetype is inherently weak and the engine is why the archetype is now good, then it would make sense to hit the engine.
​
​However, Upstart and Chicken Game are extremely splashable; they're run in literally every deck (THANKS HOBAN) to increase consistency. This makes it seem like Konami is hitting the wrong end of the cause and effect spectrum, damaging other decks in the process. Well, my response to that is: They may be, but it is possible the engine shouldn't be allowed to be that potent to begin with.
 
​Upstart Goblin and Chicken Game are straight-up +0s (moreso pseudo-proxies), and even if Chicken Game is a pseudo -1, decks that can't afford to get rid of it won't run Chicken Game to begin with, and those that do just don't care since they just want to grab their s*** as fast as possible. Having that +0 to access any other card of your deck may not seem like that big of a deal, but it compresses your deck by a pretty good percentage, allowing you to draw key cards that help you win.
​
​Now, if Upstart Goblin and Chicken Game help you draw into key cards, shouldn't they be hit since those cards you want to draw off Upstart/Chicken are the reasons why you are running Upstart Goblin and Chicken Game in the first place? Well, that's an obvious answer, and one that would be very effective, but there's one issue; principle. Konami doesn't ban cards just because they are causing an issue if the card is inherently bad or inconsistent. In most cases, it's the engine that makes the card or archetype plausible, not the other way around. Konami can ban cards left and right and it'll just clutter the banlist and is simply not efficient.
​
​Lastly, as an added bonus for removing the Chicken Game and Upstart engine, it's also a sort of future-proofing for prospective archetypes Konami will be making. This seems to be marking a shift toward a slower format, and this is purely a change in Konami's philosophy for the game, and we can't influence nor change this (we think we can, but we don't, our efficacy doesn't mean squat. #Tewart2016). Decks in the future will no longer be built with these engines in mind (to an extent), and so Konami can mold their archetypes accordingly. It's a business tactic that also translates into what I consider clear philosophy on how the banlist should work.

​

​ALSO, PEOPLE CAN YOU STOP MAKING SUCH SHITTY AND MEANINGLESS REPLIES. THIS IS DUELISTGROUNDZ! I GOT LIKE 19 REPLIES WHILE TYPING THIS AND IT KIND OF PISSES ME OFF-*SHOT*

[Hello my name is Enguin]

 

I love Chicken Race, I really like the engine and running 32 card decks, and this banlist murders basically every non-archetype deck I have be it through these bans/limits or Reasoning to 1 and other sheet so I've defended the lads. I accept that it may be for the best for Race to go, but if it has no effect on Monarchs I'll have been very sad for no reason. Upstart should be at 3 regardless because 37 cards for 3000 more LP to break through is perfectly fine but I digress.

[Kaiji]

Duelist groundz is barely active rofl

 

It was just banlist season

[Darj]

It's funny; personally I have never been a fan of deck thinning cards such as Upstart or Chicken Game because I'm not fond of turbo or combo decks that highly benefit from the speed they provide, if not outright rely on it. But now that Upstart is at 1, I feel like including it in every deck, as a sort of "the card is too good to pass up, that's why it is limited" mentality or impression, heh.

[Arimetal]

It's not like E-Teleport, Chicken Game and Reasoning are uber fair cards which would only be a problem if Monarchs were around. People have been calling for Reasoning and E-Tele hits for ages, and Chicken Game is just FTK fuel the majority of the time. Upstart is the only debatable hit.

I won't go into Chicken Race too much other than it was a sheet hit. I saw it as a completely fair card. It was used in otk and even ftk decks, yeah, but it's not like it did much. I mean really, it was just another draw card. It fueled Royal Library, but that is Library's problem. Taking out Chicken Game doesn't do sheet.

 

OT:

Hit was stupid, as Enguin said, card was completely fair and was only there to help make decks more consistent. It was a space filler if anything.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I won't go into Chicken Race too much other than it was a sheet hit. I saw it as a completely fair card. It was used in otk and even ftk decks, yeah, but it's not like it did much. I mean really, it was just another draw card. It fueled Royal Library, but that is Library's problem. Taking out Chicken Game doesn't do sheet.

 

OT:

Hit was stupid, as Enguin said, card was completely fair and was only there to help make decks more consistent. It was a space filler if anything.

Decks with library weren't why this was banned, so...

 

Dolphin honestly explained it really funking well on page 2, give his post a read.

 

funk health, funk irrelevant decks, it was causing problems in the metagame by giving consistency to a deck that is broken by it.

 

The banlist doesn't give a funk about your home brew, and it doesn't need to. It is to create balanced tier 1-2, and the banning of this supports that.

[SirReal]

Both Upstart and Chicken Game are hits that I was initially confused with, but eventually grew to like. Both of these cards eliminate deckbuilding challenge especially when it comes to adjusting to the banlist. Any hit that removes 3 or less cards from a top deck is immediately replaceable with Upstart Goblins and the combination of the two makes already consistent decks even more consistent or brings consistency into decks that are designed to brick often. 

 

Some of my disagreement with hitting the two is that:

 

1. It feels like a hit to the majority of rogue decks that require these cards to even be a thing and

2. I feel that Chicken Game should have gone to 1 rather than 0 as it's used to help deal with opening multiple terraforming in field spell reliant decks.

 

To comment on the rest of the banlist: the hits are primarily dealing with threats to Monarch and Kozmo like limiting Ignister and Wisdom-Eye, major tools to decks that have a decent matchup against Kozmo and Monarch respectively.

 

Wisdom-Eye's limit was uncalled for at this time in the meta as the deck has been sitting lower than tier 2 and Merlantean is seen as more of a threat.

 

Face-Off is a stupid card and needed the hit.

 

Wavering decides pendulum mirror matches by itself and needed to die.

 

Reasoning has way too much potential to be abused and the presence of Kozmo has already proven that, in addition to decks like Quantum. It was costless and you only rolled a die with as many sides as the different levels you had in your deck (ex. Kozmo has a 1 in 9 chance of missing and Quantum typically has a 1 in 4 chance, although missing on a Quantum that isn't Alphan typically leads to a plus regardless)

 

Norden to 1 irks me. Not because it's a bad hit, but also because it isn't good either. 90% of decks that play Norden only play 1 to begin with and most of the FTK loops with Norden (I know this wasn't what Konami was trying to hit) only require one. 

 

Honestly, the banlist, on paper, is pretty good. My only disagreements being with Wisdom-Eye being limited at this point and Chicken Game going to 0 instead of 1. The reason the list is viewed as a bad list is because the format right now is very stale and the majority of the playerbase wanted a refresh that hurt the top decks enough that some other decks can step in and shake up the meta a bit. Instead, only 1 of the top 4 decks were hit hard enough to matter, and decks outside the meta were damaged more than meta decks with the hits to Wisdom, Upstart, and Chicken Game. 

[Althemia]

The reason why Book of Moon got hit comes to mind when I saw this got limited. Book of Moon was played in every deck at the time as a 3-of because it was the best form of removal, cheapest and fastest. People will be like "It was Empty Jar's fault!" but that's exactly the same as Upstart. Empty Jar is the same to Book of Moon as Monarchs are to a lot of consistency cards. Book of Moon was hit because of how systemically played at 3 it was. Chances are it's also exactly the same case for Upstart, except Monarch are probably a bigger contributing factor than Empty.

 

Also I can't believe I actually see people defending Chicken Game, that card is one of the stupidest things they've printed in eons.

[Expelsword]

It was a fun concept, a game of Chicken, where the advantage would go back and forth.

Except it didn't. It just piled on one side.

 

Is it ironic that I now play Upstart since it's Limited and I don't have to pressure myself to find three spaces?

[Arimetal]

Decks with library weren't why this was banned, so...

 

Dolphin honestly explained it really f***ing well on page 2, give his post a read.

 

f*** health, f*** irrelevant decks, it was causing problems in the metagame by giving consistency to a deck that is broken by it.

 

The banlist doesn't give a f*** about your home brew, and it doesn't need to. It is to create balanced tier 1-2, and the banning of this supports that.

I read Dolphin before I posted that, thank you.

 

I also see his point

 

I was referring to someone saying something about Chicken Game for the most part only being used in OTK/FTK decks when I said Library.

 

I never gave the "BUT THE HEALTH" argument cuz it's stupid. Never did I say "IT WAS NEEDED FOR ROGUE/ROGUE-TIER DECKS!" cuz that's almost as stupid as the other.

 

Never cried about my decks getting hurt,

 

What the banning supports is them thinking Generic +0s are bad for the game. "They up'd consistency!" You don't say?

 

My point is the fact that these were +0s that got hit way to hard.

 

I will admit Game had it's kinks, so maybe put it at 1-2. Not ban.

 

They moved, what I specifically stated was essentially a space filler (don't deny that it isn't) to 1. 10/10 hit. I could see why they were scared at 3 but 2 would have been a solid number if they were scared. Hey, at least we can still play 39 card decks I guess.

 

Also... now that I've gone in depth with what I said. You threw rebuttals at me that didn't even match what I said, only where you thought I was coming from. So stop making assumptions, it's bloody annoying. That ok with you?

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I read Dolphin before I posted that, thank you.

 

I also see his point

 

I was referring to someone saying something about Chicken Game for the most part only being used in OTK/FTK decks when I said Library.

 

I never gave the "BUT THE HEALTH" argument cuz it's stupid. Never did I say "IT WAS NEEDED FOR ROGUE/ROGUE-TIER DECKS!" cuz that's almost as stupid as the other.

 

Never cried about my decks getting hurt,

 

What the banning supports is them thinking Generic +0s are bad for the game. "They up'd consistency!" You don't say?

 

My point is the fact that these were +0s that got hit way to hard.

 

I will admit Game had it's kinks, so maybe put it at 1-2. Not ban.

 

They moved, what I specifically stated was essentially a space filler (don't deny that it isn't) to 1. 10/10 hit. I could see why they were scared at 3 but 2 would have been a solid number if they were scared. Hey, at least we can still play 39 card decks I guess.

 

Also... now that I've gone in depth with what I said. You threw rebuttals at me that didn't even match what I said, only where you thought I was coming from. So stop making assumptions, it's bloody annoying. That ok with you?

I wasn't targeting you, I was targeting everyone, certainly myself included. You could ask Nai how much I love chicken game. It's like my favorite god damn card.

 

The health argument is in regards to the fact that calling it unhealthy honestly just causes confusion on why it was banned.

 

Thing is, in monarch, chicken game is just an insanely better upstart.

 

Are generic +0s good for the game? I literally don't care. Were they causing problems in the meta? Yes.

[Blake]

IDGI

 

Don't argue +0.

 

A +0 can be broken. A +0 that is 100% live is somewhat unfair, when it has no true drawback. Performapal Pendulum Sorcerer is a +0, for example, and it's unfair DESPITE a drawback.

 

Moreso in the case of Chicken Game, where Upstart was a BoM hit, as Kook pointed out. Upstart has a drawack, it's just one that a lot of players overlook.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Tbf pendulum sorcerer is good because he is kinda totally a +2, and that isn't even counting plusses off of whatever scales you get.

 

The thing is that the way the banlist works, a card being unhealthy really isn't something that gets it hit. It happens in OCG (though I suspect this is simply because OCG players have a higher propensity for building combo decks) but not really in TCG. Gonna be totally honest, if the banlist and game were based completely on health (which is subjective, anyway) the game would be a hell of a lot less fun than it is (though this is also subjective so sue me).