[Written] 2 attempts at making a more balanced Maxx "C" for Master Duel

[Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove]

Emergent "C"

Level 2 / EARTH / Insect / Effect

0 ATK / 1000 DEF

Cannot be Special Summoned, except by its own effect. If your opponent Special Summons a monster while you control less than 2 monsters (Quick Effect): You can Special Summon this card. You can only Special Summon "Emergent "C"" once per turn this way. Twice per turn, when your opponent Special Summons a monster while this card is face-up on the field: Draw 2 cards. During the End Phase of the turn this card was Summoned; banish this card face-down. 

 

 

Pot of Envy

Normal Spell

At the start of your Main Phase 1: Banish cards of your choice from your Extra Deck up to the number of monsters your opponent controls; Draw cards equal to the number of cards banished this way. Your opponent cannot activate monster effects on the field in response to this card's activation. For the rest of this turn after this card resolves, you cannot draw any cards by card effects.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove
Removed the normal summon/set restriction from Emergent "C", felt unnecessary. Added activation timing restriction and the last sentence to Pot of Envy to make it more balanced, and to have it fit in better thematically with the existing Pot cards.

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

seems kinda blanaced Pot of Envy has no draw backs though that get applied on the player after they resolve it.

[Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove]

3 minutes ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

seems kinda blanaced Pot of Envy has no draw backs though that get applied on the player after they resolve it.

Maybe it would be better with some sort of downside. I was thinking of Pot of Envy as a sort of inverse DRNM that pluses you rather than minus-ing your opponent, and DRNM has a substantial downside. Then again, there are multiple ways Pot of Envy would be worse than Maxx "C", and Maxx "C" has no downside :P 

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

54 minutes ago, Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove said:

Maybe it would be better with some sort of downside. I was thinking of Pot of Envy as a sort of inverse DRNM that pluses you rather than minus-ing your opponent, and DRNM has a substantial downside. Then again, there are multiple ways Pot of Envy would be worse than Maxx "C", and Maxx "C" has no downside :P 

I think Maxx "C" Ettra would be nice. Yeah but just being able to draw 6 is too much without a downside and it cannot be negated.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan

[Edventure]

Pot of Envy is insane and would be run in any deck in the game. Drawing 3+ cards going second is basically just a baby Maxx C and it cant even be Ash Blossomed. 

Maybe it could read:

 Draw a card for each monster your opponent controls that was Special Summoned from the Extra Deck. Your opponent cannot activate monster effects on the field in response to this card's activation. For the rest of this turn after this card resolves, you can only special summon monsters from the Extra Deck up to the number of cards you drew by this cards effect. If you do not Special Summon a monster from the Extra Deck this turn, during the End Phase of this turn; discard your hand. You can only activate 1 "Pot of Envy" per turn.
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Emergent C is honestly not very playable, atleast not competitively. First you have to wait for your opponent to special summon which can already put you in a position where your opponent can out it with cards like Pankratops, droplet, ash, veiler, ghost ogre, droll, triple tactics talent, book of moon, book of eclipse, and the Kaijus. That list is pretty long considering that alot of these are played regularly. 

Maybe it could read:

"Cannot be Special Summoned, except by its own effect. If your opponent activates a card or effect that would special summon a monster while you control the same number of or less monsters than your opponent (Quick Effect): You can special summon this card from your hand. Up to twice per turn if your opponent special summons a monster; draw a card. You can only Summon 1 "Emergent C" per turn. During the End Phase of the turn this card was Normal or Special summoned, banish it."

This prevents a few things:

1. You can get at least 1 card draw out of it so it replaces itself.

2. You can normal summon it if you want to use it as material or to punish your opponent for making plays during your turn which could also net you at least a draw. Eating up your normal summon can be a big deal in a lot of decks so its not uncommon for the card to likely just remain in your hand. 

3. Setting a monster isn't a crime and will not give you draws so at the very least it can be a defensive card if you draw an atrocious opening hand. 

4. The card wont remain on the board regardless of whether you normal or special summoned it long enough to become a problem. 


Overall good ideas, I like that your trying to fix problems in the game rather than creating new ones!


 

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

@Edventure Thank You so much I think that was a change that Pot of Evny needed @Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove Yo nerf that card even more it has no downsides and its not balanced what so ever...

[Edventure]

4 hours ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

@Edventure Thank You so much I think that was a change that Pot of Evny needed @Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove Yo nerf that card even more it has no downsides and its not balanced what so ever...

im gonna assume this was sarcasm. Either way after reading it again you could remove one of the downsides and it would likely be fine.

I also made a mistake cause Pot of Envy can be ash blossomed i misread the card. I would rewrite it like this.:

Draw a card for each monster your opponent controls that was Special Summoned from the Extra Deck. Your opponent cannot activate monster effects on the field in response to this card's activation. If you do not Special Summon a monster from the Extra Deck, during the End Phase of this turn; discard your hand. You can only activate 1 "Pot of Envy" per turn.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Edventure

[Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove]

17 hours ago, Edventure said:

Pot of Envy is insane and would be run in any deck in the game. Drawing 3+ cards going second is basically just a baby Maxx C and it cant even be Ash Blossomed. 

Maybe it could read:

 Draw a card for each monster your opponent controls that was Special Summoned from the Extra Deck. Your opponent cannot activate monster effects on the field in response to this card's activation. For the rest of this turn after this card resolves, you can only special summon monsters from the Extra Deck up to the number of cards you drew by this cards effect. If you do not Special Summon a monster from the Extra Deck this turn, during the End Phase of this turn; discard your hand. You can only activate 1 "Pot of Envy" per turn.
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Emergent C is honestly not very playable, atleast not competitively. First you have to wait for your opponent to special summon which can already put you in a position where your opponent can out it with cards like Pankratops, droplet, ash, veiler, ghost ogre, droll, triple tactics talent, book of moon, book of eclipse, and the Kaijus. That list is pretty long considering that alot of these are played regularly. 

Maybe it could read:

"Cannot be Special Summoned, except by its own effect. If your opponent activates a card or effect that would special summon a monster while you control the same number of or less monsters than your opponent (Quick Effect): You can special summon this card from your hand. Up to twice per turn if your opponent special summons a monster; draw a card. You can only Summon 1 "Emergent C" per turn. During the End Phase of the turn this card was Normal or Special summoned, banish it."

This prevents a few things:

1. You can get at least 1 card draw out of it so it replaces itself.

2. You can normal summon it if you want to use it as material or to punish your opponent for making plays during your turn which could also net you at least a draw. Eating up your normal summon can be a big deal in a lot of decks so its not uncommon for the card to likely just remain in your hand. 

3. Setting a monster isn't a crime and will not give you draws so at the very least it can be a defensive card if you draw an atrocious opening hand. 

4. The card wont remain on the board regardless of whether you normal or special summoned it long enough to become a problem. 


Overall good ideas, I like that your trying to fix problems in the game rather than creating new ones!


 

Yo, thanks for the thought out reply. I like your restrictions suggested for Pot of Envy, it's pretty interesting, would make it so that certain decks that have long combo lines wouldn't be able to run it (for example, say, a Cupid Pitch line that involves multiple Synchro Summons beyond what is on the end board). I will say that I already worded Pot of Envy so that it could be responded to by Ash, you may have missed that. And the fact that a card like Pot of Envy is essentially dead turn 1 is a huge difference from Maxx "C". Not to mention that fact that some combo decks will special summon 5, 6, 7 times in a turn but only end on 2, maybe 3 monsters (Mathmech ending on Terahertz + Heatsoul, for example). 

As for Emergent "C", I disagree it would be unplayable as is. Yes, it's significantly worse than Maxx "C", but that's the point. We MD players are spoiled because of Maxx "C". It has many more outs than Maxx "C", but trading your Emergent "C" for a Veiler or Kaiju is not bad when those cards likely would have been pointed at your engine pieces or boss monsters instead. That said, I don't hate the way to reworked the idea, although I would stand by letting you draw 2 cards per summon rather than just one.

5 minutes ago, Edventure said:

im gonna assume this was sarcasm. Either way after reading it again you could remove one of the downsides and it would likely be fine.

I also made a mistake cause Pot of Envy can be ash blossomed i misread the card. I would rewrite it like this.:

Draw a card for each monster your opponent controls that was Special Summoned from the Extra Deck. Your opponent cannot activate monster effects on the field in response to this card's activation. If you do not Special Summon a monster from the Extra Deck, during the End Phase of this turn; discard your hand. You can only activate 1 "Pot of Envy" per turn.

haha we commented at the same time, you realized you missed the Ash thing on your own. Cheers man, I mainly posted this to fish for a discussion around how to redesign Maxx "C" for the modern game and you came through! 

[Edventure]

1 minute ago, Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove said:

Yo, thanks for the thought out reply. I like your restrictions suggested for Pot of Envy, it's pretty interesting, would make it so that certain decks that have long combo lines wouldn't be able to run it (for example, say, a Cupid Pitch line that involves multiple Synchro Summons beyond what is on the end board). I will say that I already worded Pot of Envy so that it could be responded to by Ash, you may have missed that. And the fact that a card like Pot of Envy is essentially dead turn 1 is a huge difference from Maxx "C". Not to mention that fact that some combo decks will special summon 5, 6, 7 times in a turn but only end on 2, maybe 3 monsters (Mathmech ending on Terahertz + Heatsoul, for example). 

As for Emergent "C", I disagree it would be unplayable as is. Yes, it's significantly worse than Maxx "C", but that's the point. We MD players are spoiled because of Maxx "C". It has many more outs than Maxx "C", but trading your Emergent "C" for a Veiler or Kaiju is not bad when those cards likely would have been pointed at your engine pieces or boss monsters instead. That said, I don't hate the way to reworked the idea, although I would stand by letting you draw 2 cards per summon rather than just one.

literally fixed the ash blossom mistake as you were replying with my ptrvious message lol. That was my bad. 

I see your point about Emergent. I guess either version works, I do still like the idea of being able to normal it, especially since it doesn't remain on the board.

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

Yeah Emergent "C" I didn't have a problem with it was just Pot of Envy since it didn't apply restrictions afterwards also the fact its not like Pot of Exvgence where it must be used AT the Start of your Main Phase 1

[Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove]

3 minutes ago, Edventure said:

literally fixed the ash blossom mistake as you were replying with my ptrvious message lol. That was my bad. 

I see your point about Emergent. I guess either version works, I do still like the idea of being able to normal it, especially since it doesn't remain on the board.

yep, we posted simultaneously   i don't think being able to normal summon it would be an issue either, I mostly gave it the "can only be special summoned by its own effect" line to avoid being able to use it multiple turns in a row by linking it off before it gets banished or something along those lines. Not sure how much I realistically needed to be worried about that, but I was being cautious. 

 

3 minutes ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

Yeah Emergent "C" I didn't have a problem with it was just Pot of Envy since it didn't apply restrictions afterwards also the fact its not like Pot of Exvgence where it must be used AT the Start of your Main Phase 1

Giving Pot of Envy the Pot of Extrav activation restriction was actually something I was thinking about at work today, alongside taking some inspiration from Pot of Prosperity too. Maybe something like: "At the start of your Main Phase 1: Banish cards of your choice from your Extra Deck up to the number of monsters your opponent controls; Draw cards equal to the number of cards banished this way. Your opponent cannot activate monster effects on the field in response to this card's activation. For the rest of this turn after this card resolves, you cannot draw any cards by card effects."

[Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove]

18 hours ago, Edventure said:

Emergent C is honestly not very playable, atleast not competitively. First you have to wait for your opponent to special summon which can already put you in a position where your opponent can out it with cards like Pankratops, droplet, ash, veiler, ghost ogre, droll, triple tactics talent, book of moon, book of eclipse, and the Kaijus. That list is pretty long considering that alot of these are played regularly. 

Maybe it could read:

"Cannot be Special Summoned, except by its own effect. If your opponent activates a card or effect that would special summon a monster while you control the same number of or less monsters than your opponent (Quick Effect): You can special summon this card from your hand. Up to twice per turn if your opponent special summons a monster; draw a card. You can only Summon 1 "Emergent C" per turn. During the End Phase of the turn this card was Normal or Special summoned, banish it."

This prevents a few things:

1. You can get at least 1 card draw out of it so it replaces itself.

2. You can normal summon it if you want to use it as material or to punish your opponent for making plays during your turn which could also net you at least a draw. Eating up your normal summon can be a big deal in a lot of decks so its not uncommon for the card to likely just remain in your hand. 

3. Setting a monster isn't a crime and will not give you draws so at the very least it can be a defensive card if you draw an atrocious opening hand. 

4. The card wont remain on the board regardless of whether you normal or special summoned it long enough to become a problem. 



 

To expand a little more on your idea, I think cutting the "cannot normal summon/set" restriction while keeping the "can only be special summoned by its own effect" makes a lot of sense. Honestly, in my brain I just thought of those two lines as one bc they show up together on so many cards. Also, making it only draw one at a time but letting it always replace itself by getting in before the first special summon could be a decent trade off. I would want to find a way to word it differently, though, since the way you worded it makes it so that an inherent special summon wouldn't trigger it to summon out of your hand.

Lastly, it's good you point out TTT specifically as an out. TTT taking control of either of these design would STING

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

@Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove Again I feel that Pot of Evny in its current form is too broken and you still haven't nerfed it on the main post/tread I really don't like that card its needs to have bad changes made to it to make it more balanced this card's is kinda OP.

[cr47t]

i do admire the attempt to re-vise Maxx C, because as much as there needs to be a strong counter to mega-Specialling first turn, Maxx C is really broken. before i get into the two cards presented here, i should go over (for clarity)

why Maxx C is broken in the first place, if it's not self-evident

it's not neccesarily the deckout challenge being the main way out, or the massive draws in and of themselves, but rather that modern competitve YGO deck building has become so optimized and has seen so much power creep over the years that playing Maxx C in a modern competitive matchup basically wins you the game on the spot. i mean, unless your opponent is running something un-monster-dependent (like runick) what are your opponent's options to respond?

• fold the turn, and lose to having a shit board against your plays (unless you bricked, but decks now are made to build themselves in such a way that it doesn't really happen that often, so it's not exactly something your opponent can rely on)
• get out a couple of monsters, give you some +1s, and risk you drawing the thing you need to go full steam ahead (assuming you bricked in the first place)
• play like normal (with all the specialling that would come without Maxx C) and lose to you having literally everything you'll ever need to counter anything they themselves do since you draw so much
• go for the Maxx C challenge and try to deck you out, but risk getting exodia'd (let's be honest, if you main Maxx C you might as well put exodia in the side deck just in case they can pull a deckout off)

it's like playing chess against someone your own elo (i.e. no Maxx C) versus playing chess against a cheater or the computer outright (i.e. if someone plays Maxx C, they are the computer/cheater in this comparison) because you basically can't win no matter what against Maxx C. maybe it's possible in earlier formats when the game was much slower and strategy actually had a much more central role in competitive play, but the sheer speed of competitive play nowadays (even when i run branded at locals, and not even the more competitive locals i've seen, duels tend to be over within 2 turns per player, 3 if you're lucky) makes this practically impossible for any modern format in at least the last 5 years.

i'm not even going to get into the fact that Maxx C (unless my info is outdated) is still legal in OCG which causes Konami to design around Maxx C which in turn influences the TCG (we don't have a counter like that) because this isn't a Maxx C thread per se. so let's ask

how do the 2 cards you made address this?

Emergent C (the original post version) seems like a good nerf to Maxx C, and as you said in a reply the whole point is that it's worse than Maxx C but still playable. i kind of agree, but at the same time it seems kind of limited in its scope especially in comparison to Pot of Envy (see below) personally I like Edventure @Edventure's version better except for your version allowing 2 draws per summon, but that's just me. i don't really know how else to add to my critique of this card b/c it's been so long since I've seen any "C" card get any play in TCG so I wouldn't know how to evaluate its place in the meta, especially since YGO isn't as big for me as it used to be.

Pot of Envy is a more powerful and less situational card than either the Edventure or OP version of "Emergent C", and this is the one I think would be more likely to see play, since it's only real drawback against Emergent or Maxx is that you can only use it during your own turn. but thats not exactly much of a hindrance, especially since it allows for the turn to continue as usual after the drawing. i for one would add some kind of restriction besides the once-per-turn to prevent it from becoming a staple in exodia, Floowandereeze, Monarchs, etc. by adding to the main effect something like "also for the rest of this turn after this card resolves, you cannot draw cards by card effects." or something like that.

lastly I feel like I gotta give you props for the name "Pot of Envy" - very fitting given the point, effect, and context of the card itself.

Edited October 28, 2023 by cr47t
"unless your opponent is running" for clarity

[Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove]

Thanks @cr47t for the well thought out feedback. I ended up adding some inspiration from Extravagance and Prosperity to Pot of Envy in the replies, I suppose I'll update the main post for any future readers. And your analysis of Maxx "C" feels spot-on to me. Maxx "C" might have been a relatively balanced card back when it was first designed, but as the game progressed over the years it just became better and better to the point of being ridiculous. It really does warp the whole game around it, both in terms of deckbuilding and gameplay. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

@cr47t Thank You so much for explaining why hated the pot card in its original form and @Ghost Nomad and Sunlit Grove Thank you for listening to us Emergent C seemed like it had its PSCT cleaned up to look more clean it was always balanced in a good way but still a powerful card I still have no complaints about.

[Edventure]

Solid work team!