Butterfly Dagger - Elma

[Sleepy]

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Increase the ATK of a monster equipped with this card by 300 points. When this card is equipped to a monster' date=' and is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard, this card can be returned to the owner's hand.

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[spoiler=Wikia Rulings:]

-Missing the Timing: Because the effect of "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" is an optional "when… you can" Trigger Effect, "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" being sent to the Graveyard has to be the very last thing that happened in order for you to activate its effect. So, if it is destroyed in the middle of a chain, you cannot return it to your hand.

 

Example:If the turn player activates "Pot of Greed", and the opponent chains "Mystical Space Typhoon" to destroy "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" during the chain, it cannot return to the owner's hand.

 

If the monster that "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" is equipped to is destroyed as a result of battle, or by a card effect like "Sakuretsu Armor" or "Fissure", then "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" cannot return to your hand because it is no longer equipped to a monster. However, if the monster and the "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" are destroyed simultaneously by a card like "Final Destiny", then you can return it to your hand.

 

-While "Imperial Order" is active, if "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" is destroyed and sent to the Graveyard, it can return to your hand.

When you activate "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" and your opponent chains "Mystical Space Typhoon", it cannot return to your hand.[1]

When "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" is "sent to the Graveyard" without being "destroyed", such as with "Woodland Sprite", it cannot return to your hand.

 

If "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" is negated and destroyed by "Ryu Senshi" or "Freed the Matchless General", it cannot return to your hand.[1]

While "Morale Boost" is active, if you equip "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" to "Gearfried the Iron Knight":

1) Increase your Life Points for "Morale Boost".

2) Destroy "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" with "Gearfried the Iron Knight"'s effect.

3) Inflict damage for "Morale Boost" when "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" is sent to the Graveyard.

4) The owner of "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" can return it to his/her hand.

 

If "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" is destroyed during the Damage Step, such as by the effect of "Cliff the Trap Remover", you cannot activate the effect that returns "Butterfly Dagger - Elma" to the hand.

 

 

Everything said. Other than the "Gearfried" combos, this card doesn't seem broken to me. It doesn't even come back when the monster is destroyed by battle? O_o

I think this card has an opportunity of comming back depending on possible ruling changes.

Also, I want to make lol Guardian/Rafael Deck because I has Eatos

 

Discuss this card, what possible changes could be done to make it come back, or whatever you feel like saying.

 

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[MrCodyPwns]

Woodland Sprite woud abuse the holy hell out of this.

[Sleepy]

Woodland Sprite woud abuse the holy hell out of this.

 

No' date=' it needs to be [b']destroyed[/b] and sent to the Graveyard.

[Coaster Guy]

This + Gearfried iron knight + royal magical library.....

 

 

too bad this is forbidden.

[evilfusion]

It's not a good card, but it has a broken combo with Gearfried and other things. It's just better to keep it banned than risk something else someday exploiting it. It has nothing to contribute beyond the combo, so leaving it there to rot into obscurity doesn't hurt anyone but Guardian Elma, which is horrible anyway.

[Sleepy]

This + Gearfried iron knight + royal magical library.....

 

 

too bad this is forbidden.

 

That's what I said in the first post. Gearfried is the only card that makes this broken.

Sounds like it can be fixed somehow and come back.

 

 

It's not a good card' date=' but it has a broken combo with Gearfried and other things. It's just better to keep it banned than risk something else someday exploiting it. It has nothing to contribute beyond the combo, so leaving it there to rot into obscurity doesn't hurt anyone but Guardian Elma, which is horrible anyway.

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Yeah, it only has the broken combos with Gearfried. Other than that its not just not broken, but almost useless.

What kind of ruling could (hipotetically) be made so that 1 combo doesn't work anymore and this can come back from the list, is what I'm really looking for to be answered in this thread though.

[MrCodyPwns]

Woodland Sprite woud abuse the holy hell out of this.

 

No' date=' it needs to be [b']destroyed[/b] and sent to the Graveyard.

 

I always thought WLS destroyed the equip card...

 

Blah, it's been awhile since seeing it. So my bad.

[Cypress]

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Increase the ATK of a monster equipped with this card by 300 points. When this card is equipped to a monster' date=' and is destroyed [b']by an opponent's card effect[/b] and sent to the Graveyard, this card can be returned to the owner's hand.

 

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reprint with errata?

[evilfusion]

That would only make the combo one card longer. Shien's Spy, Creature Swap, or Mystic Box w/Gearfried.

[darkwolf777]

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Increase the ATK of a monster equipped with this card by 300 points. When this card is equipped to a monster' date=' and is destroyed [b']by an opponent's card effect[/b] and sent to the Graveyard, this card can be returned to the owner's hand.

 

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reprint with errata?

 

Creature Swap your own Gearfried, the Iron Knight, then proceed to equip and reequip Butterly Dagger Elma to their Gearfried. Maybe add "This card can only be equipped to a monster you control."

[Cypress]

how about, instead of the whole opp card effect and equip to monster you control, just add in a once per turn activation.....

[evilfusion]

This is one of those cards that is so bad on its own, but so broken in combo, that just keeping it from being abused by banning it is better than trying to fix it. Gearfried is the other option, but it's also nothing special.

 

Nothing justifies Elma being fixed. It's a worthless card that just happens to be key in a broken combo where none of the other cards are banworthy.

[-Berserker-]

I always supported banning Gearfried over this, but having a bigger cardpool is more important than my opinion.

This banned prevents the use of Elma

Garfield banned prevents the use of Release Restraint and Swordsmaster.

(You can still set Elma or use RR in Diamond Dude decks, but still...)

 

@Sleepy: I'll trade you 2 Ultimate rares cards for your Eatos)

[Guest PikaPerson01]

I always supported banning Gearfried over this' date=' but having a bigger cardpool is more important than my opinion.

This banned prevents the use of Elma

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Gearfried banned prevents the use of Gearfried the Swordmaster, which is a significantly more playable card. Not to mention Gearfried would be mildly decent if the meta ever gets filled with Mark of the Rose, Snatch Steal and Autonomous Action Unit.

[Flame Dragon]

Gearfried combo is what made this broken. Their is nothing more to it. Either one of the needed to go and Gearfried brought more to the game so he stayed.

[evilfusion]

And really, when you look at the banlist and ask yourself "Why was this banned?" the answers vary like so:

 

Butterfly Dagger-Elma: Had a broken combo with Gearfried, repeatedly destroying itself and returning to your hand, letting you accumulate infinite spell counters (W/ Library, Endymion, Magical Marionette, Dark Red Enchanter, etc), infinite LP (Spell Absorption), Infinite Burn (Spell Absorption + Fire Princess), etc.

 

Gearfried the Iron Knight: Had a broken combo with Butterfly Dagger where it kept destroying the Dagger automatically and Elma would return to the hand, something no other equip can do, which let you accumulate a lot of infinite loop stuff, but the Equip sucks. This also destroys ALL equips, so you could use uh...Smoke Grenade of the Thief and Blast With Chain and get their effects so...

 

Wow, that sounded stupid.

[Sleepy]

And really' date=' when you look at the banlist and ask yourself "Why was this banned?" the answers vary like so:

 

Butterfly Dagger-Elma: Had a broken combo with Gearfried, repeatedly destroying itself and returning to your hand, letting you accumulate infinite spell counters (W/ Library, Endymion, Magical Marionette, Dark Red Enchanter, etc), infinite LP (Spell Absorption), Infinite Burn (Spell Absorption + Fire Princess), etc.

 

Gearfried the Iron Knight: Had a broken combo with Butterfly Dagger where it kept destroying the Dagger automatically and Elma would return to the hand, something no other equip can do, which let you accumulate a lot of infinite loop stuff, but the Equip sucks. This also destroys ALL equips, so you could use uh...Smoke Grenade of the Thief and Blast With Chain and get their effects so...

 

Wow, that sounded stupid.

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I know why its banned, and wasn't really asking that...

I was hoping to find more suggestions than the gearfried vs butterfly dagger arguments...

For example, Green Baboon, Defender of the Forest. He was limited for a reason, until a ruling change. That ruling change allowed Green Baboon to go to 3. I'm asking for a similar solution for Butterfly Dagger. I'm not saying its actually useful to the game.

 

I'm asking for something that could ruin the chance of performing its single broken combo that everyone already knows and let it out of the Banlist.

 

 

how about' date=' instead of the whole opp card effect and equip to monster you control, just add in a once per turn activation.....

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This is one valid solution.

 

 

I always supported banning Gearfried over this' date=' but having a bigger cardpool is more important than my opinion.

This banned prevents the use of Elma

Garfield banned prevents the use of Release Restraint and Swordsmaster.

(You can still set Elma or use RR in Diamond Dude decks, but still...)

 

@Sleepy: I'll trade you 2 Ultimate rares cards for your Eatos)

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Sorry, I just got it the day before yesterday and intend to use it somehow no matter what

^-^

[evilfusion]

The difference is Bamboon got a ruling change (can't be used during Damage Step), but they didn't change the effect at all. There is no way to change the rules on Elma that will remove the combo without changing the effect entirely.

[Sephiroth_The_Legend]

not only is the combo broke, its that all the parts for the combo are searchable.

 

Gearfried has ROTA, both Library and Gearfried have Summoner Monk and Elma has Hidden Armory

[seattleite]

Add in the ruling change that dagger won't be returned if it is not "successfully" equipped

 

Gearfried says "Any equip card equipped to this card is automatically destroyed"

 

or something like that..

 

Anyway, you could say dagger can not activate since it cannot equip.

[darkwolf777]

Add in the ruling change that dagger won't be returned if it is not "successfully" equipped

 

Gearfried says "Any equip card equipped to this card is automatically destroyed"

 

or something like that..

 

Anyway' date=' you could say dagger can not activate since it cannot equip.

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Uhhhhhh you've got this all wrong :< What you said there wont change a thing.

 

A) If Butterfly Dagger - Elma was negated, then it would not have been successfully equipped and would not appear in the hand.

 

B) Equipping Butterfly Dagger - Elma to Gearfried IS a successful equip. Gearfried then proceeds to destroy it.

 

You listed his effect yourself: Gearfried says "Any equip card equipped to this card is automatically destroyed"

 

How can Gearfried destroy a card that has not successfully been equipped to it yet? "Any equip card equipped to this card is..." implies that the card was successfully equipped onto Gearfried.

[seattleite]

Add in the ruling change that dagger won't be returned if it is not "successfully" equipped

 

Gearfried says "Any equip card equipped to this card is automatically destroyed"

 

or something like that..

 

Anyway' date=' you could say dagger can not activate since it cannot equip.

[/quote']

 

Uhhhhhh you've got this all wrong :< What you said there wont change a thing.

 

A) If Butterfly Dagger - Elma was negated, then it would not have been successfully equipped and would not appear in the hand.

 

B) Equipping Butterfly Dagger - Elma to Gearfried IS a successful equip. Gearfried then proceeds to destroy it.

 

You listed his effect yourself: Gearfried says "Any equip card equipped to this card is automatically destroyed"

 

How can Gearfried destroy a card that has not successfully been equipped to it yet? "Any equip card equipped to this card is..." implies that the card was successfully equipped onto Gearfried.

 

meh. It was just an idea.