BehindTheMask Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 What cards "break" this deck? What are the unacceptable combos? What should be done, so that this deck is no longer a threat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 What cards "break" this deck? What are the unacceptable combos? What should be done' date=' so that this deck is no longer a threat?[/quote'] Mass Driver, as a start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BehindTheMask Posted July 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 What cards "break" this deck? What are the unacceptable combos? What should be done' date=' so that this deck is no longer a threat?[/quote'] Mass Driver, as a start *Points at Cannon Soldier* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sacred Ninja Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Ronintoadin is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Judgment Dragon Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Ronintoadin gave them the ability to FTK. Banning that seems like the most logical decision to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 What cards "break" this deck? What are the unacceptable combos? What should be done' date=' so that this deck is no longer a threat?[/quote'] Mass Driver, as a start *Points at Cannon Soldier* Technicly it would be a 2-card FTKDiscard Roanin for that other toad guy, and play Mass Driver.Still, Roanin is the main problem card. BUT GUIZ, WITH KONAMI'S LAWJIK, TEH ODER TOHD WUD B B& INSTUD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BehindTheMask Posted July 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Ronintoadin gave them the ability to FTK. Ban that. Even so, the deck can still win post Trishula. Ronintoadin's only "offense" makes him broken. Shouldn't Mass Driver, a card that only promotes FTK/OTKs be banned? But that doesn't solve the problem at all. Cannon soldier can replace the card, but only decreases the consistency a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Ronintoadin gave them the ability to FTK. Ban that. Even so' date=' the deck can still win post Trishula. Ronintoadin's only "offense" makes him broken. Shouldn't Mass Driver, a card that only promotes FTK/OTKs be banned? But that doesn't solve the problem at all. Cannon soldier can replace the card, but only decreases the consistency a little bit.[/quote'] One for One@0 Problem Solved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BehindTheMask Posted July 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Ronintoadin gave them the ability to FTK. Ban that. Even so' date=' the deck can still win post Trishula. Ronintoadin's only "offense" makes him broken. Shouldn't Mass Driver, a card that only promotes FTK/OTKs be banned? But that doesn't solve the problem at all. Cannon soldier can replace the card, but only decreases the consistency a little bit.[/quote'] One for One@0 Problem Solved? Summon Substitoad, Special Summon Swap Frog, Play Mass Driver, FTK. The answer is really simple guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Ronintoadin gave them the ability to FTK. Ban that. Even so' date=' the deck can still win post Trishula. Ronintoadin's only "offense" makes him broken. Shouldn't Mass Driver, a card that only promotes FTK/OTKs be banned? But that doesn't solve the problem at all. Cannon soldier can replace the card, but only decreases the consistency a little bit.[/quote'] One for One@0 Problem Solved? Summon Substitoad, Special Summon Swap Frog, Play Mass Driver, FTK. The answer is really simple guys. Thing is, Konami actually tried to promote this FTK.Seriously. They WANTED this sort of crap to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Yeah, if you ban Imperial Iron Wall, Ronintoadin, and Ultimate Offering, I'm pretty sure you can't loop with Mass Driver or Cannon Soldier. Imperial Iron Wall, Ronintoadin, and Ultimate Offering are all broken anyways so it's all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bringerofcake Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Yeah' date=' if you ban Imperial Iron Wall, Ronintoadin, and Ultimate Offering, I'm pretty sure you can't loop with Mass Driver or Cannon Soldier.[/quote'] Wouldn't IIW be an effective counter to the FTK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Judgment Dragon Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Ronintoadin gave them the ability to FTK. Ban that. Even so' date=' the deck can still win post Trishula. Ronintoadin's only "offense" makes him broken. Shouldn't Mass Driver, a card that only promotes FTK/OTKs be banned? But that doesn't solve the problem at all. Cannon soldier can replace the card, but only decreases the consistency a little bit.[/quote'] One for One@0 Problem Solved? Summon Substitoad, Special Summon Swap Frog, Play Mass Driver, FTK. The answer is really simple guys. Mass Driver indeed promotes OTKs and FTKs however the banworthiness of some of the other cards that involve it are questionable as they are. Ronintoadin seems a bit busted as it is though in this particular case. It is a +1 from the Graveyard that requires some deck dedication although in this particular case, it isn't balanced. Yeah' date=' if you ban Imperial Iron Wall, Ronintoadin, and Ultimate Offering, I'm pretty sure you can't loop with Mass Driver or Cannon Soldier.[/quote'] Wouldn't IIW be an effective counter to the FTK? It wouldn't. You would have to not get FTK'd for it to be effective. Also, IIW is bannable as it is since it fuels some OTKs of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Yeah' date=' if you ban Imperial Iron Wall, Ronintoadin, and Ultimate Offering, I'm pretty sure you can't loop with Mass Driver or Cannon Soldier.[/quote'] Wouldn't IIW be an effective counter to the FTK? IIW and Mass Driver have loops with Quillbolt Hedgehog, Plaguespreader Zombie, and Worm Xex. IIW also has the other offense of doubling up as a generalized heavy punishment against all forms of removing from play when removing from play in general doesn't have to be punished. Unreasonable cards which do should be banned. IIW's ability to counter the combo is wholly irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BehindTheMask Posted July 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 How come no one has mentioned Substitoad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulletMan Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 I could actually see Konami banning Substitoad this up coming list. That would suck. :< But Mass Driver needs to be banned. And i don't give a crap about cannon soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 How come no one has mentioned Substitoad? Why have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BehindTheMask Posted July 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 How come no one has mentioned Substitoad? Why have you? Because without substitoad, it's impossible to FTK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catterjune Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 To my mind, while Substitoad accomplishes deck thinning and grave setup, it's Ronintoadin that officially breaks it. Toad contributes more to the game then Ronin does, upon first glance. Then again, I admit I don't think about it too often so I could be completely wrong here. IDK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 I'd say that Ronintoadin contributes more to the game than Substitoad. Substitoad has always been questionable, since it has had exactly two purposes: flood the Graveyard with an absurd number of cards, and abuse Scapegoat tokens and similar swarm devices for flooding. Neither of these are ever going to be good things; they'll either hurt the game or be ignored. Ronintoadin, without Substitoad to give it unlimited fodder, requires deck dedication to produce Tribute Fodder, and while that Tribute Fodder is decent and certainly useful, it's not game-breaking without Substitoad nuking the deck. It's not broken, and I can see more valid use being made of what is essentially a balanced themed Treeborn than of Substitoad's shenanigans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Konami: hi guiz im konami im smart so im going to laik ban mas drivaer, then substitod, and then trishula, u guiz hapy nowOthers: F***. Trisula!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth_The_Legend Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 If you counter the effect of Ronintoadin, then the FTK dies.Substitoad fuels the grave yes, but thats all it does, Toadin takes advantage of it and thats where the deck becomes broke. If you ban Toadin, the FTK becomes very difficult, as there is no longer infinite tribute fodder anymore.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BehindTheMask Posted July 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 If you counter the effect of Ronintoadin' date=' then the FTK dies.Substitoad fuels the grave yes, but thats all it does, Toadin takes advantage of it and thats where the deck becomes broke. If you ban Toadin, the FTK becomes very difficult, as there is no longer infinite tribute fodder anymore..[/quote'] Fishborg Blaster for 5 Trishula is still stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth_The_Legend Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 yes that too. but we dont have Trishula, so its ok for now :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrabHelmet Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 If you counter the effect of Substitoad' date=' then the FTK dies.Ronintoadin uses fuel from the grave yes, but thats all it does, Substitoad provides limitless fuel and thats where the deck becomes broke. If you ban Substitoad, the FTK becomes very difficult, as there is no longer infinite Toadin fodder anymore..[/quote'] *tinkers* Generally, if something as simple as shifting the names around doesn't reduce an argument's validity but does reverse its final conclusion, the argument probably wasn't all that valid in the first place. Essentially, what you said could be summarized thus: "Substitoad + Ronintoadin FTKs. Substitoad alone does not." The problem is that one can just as easily say this: "Substitoad + Ronintoadin FTKs. Ronintoadin alone does not." The FTK is impossible with either alone; the question is which to ban (or, indeed, whether we should instead ban the third element: Mass Driver, Toon Cannon Soldier, and anything else that would enjoy having limitless Tribute fodder - though it seems rather unlikely that the optimal solution is going to be one that allows such a simple engine for producing limitless Tribute fodder to remain legal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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