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FTK Decks, are they that bad?


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I'm on the DN forums (yea yea, lol DN) and saw a thread on this. Guy's saying they're cheep and pretty much give guaranteed win (no I'm not linking Shard). He keeps using Exodia and Empty Jar, which have both been argued against, and has used the old Pulsar OTK as well, even though we've said it was retarded and would be shut down at the earliest possible time.

So I'm asking, are the existing FTKs bad for the game? Do they win consistently enough that they f*ck it up?

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Mathematically, the MOST consistent FTK is Empty Jar.

Its percentage of winning, assuming you're running a near optimal build is around 69%. Exodia's a little lower at about 50%, depending on build.

Most FTKs are bad for the game. They don't promote skill, but rather luck. Of course lucksacking will always happen, but if you can add more skill-based cards to the game to counter any luck, then it's fine. It's just that FTKs will always create an imbalance, and make sure that luck dominates.

The way Konami then saves the game from FTK mania is purposely making FTKs slightly less consistent than proper decks.

No, they don't need action because no amount of luck will get you away from pure odds. Empty Jar does top every so often, but they will nearly always fail at some hurdle. In fact, Empty Jar is one of the more skilled FTKs to play, which is why Konami doesn't mind it topping.

Everything else doesn't even touch those competitive areas, and is fine as it is.

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...what IS an optimal Empty Jar build? Idk, I've never run an FTK. I've run Fenix OTK, but got bored with it.
I wanna FTK somebody without Exodia some time...just to do it.

[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1320722448' post='5625529']

aka Makyura FTK.

Konami just hates friendship.
[/quote]
That's why Little Kuriboh is fun.

Tea: Penguins...
Joey: Hey, Yugi...does Tea sound alright to you?
Yugi: What? What's wrong? Tea, are you ok?
Tea: FRIENDSHIP.
Yugi: Sounds alright to me.

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Yugioh's very game structure is kind against FTKs overall. In Duel Masters and other games where you need "Mana" stuff to work your way out, each game is slower, and there's nearly no FTKs (though the percentage of OTKs, on the other hand, is dramatically higher than Yugioh - at least from what I've heard). Yugioh doesn't need time to win; you can spam a bunch of high-levels from first turn if you build your deck right. Making the game faster promotes skill.

FTKs are a necesarry evil, and I think the list's doing a good job trying to kill them as much as they can. Frogs are now dead. Empty Jar is the only real FTK that can live in tournaments, and even THEM rarely get far. Well, I honestly think that if a duelist using Empty Jar can top in tournaments, he is sure to have amazing skills of both siding and playing. While single duels with Empty Jars are rather autopilot, if someone can master it to that extent, I would call him a genius, and he'd probably be good at other decks too.

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My predominant thoughts:

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1320721093' post='5625420']
I dont find them fun to use, or to face. Any combo or strategy that involves playing cards with little to no opposing reaction or input for an extended period of time is dreadfully dull.
[/quote]

Don't see how sitting there and doing the same systematic thing over and over while your opponent just sits there and watches you go through your system until its over can be any fun for either player.

In terms of whether they are good/bad for YGO in general, I guess I'll agree with:

[quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1320722009' post='5625491']
Most FTKs are bad for the game. They don't promote skill, but rather luck. Of course lucksacking will always happen, but if you can add more skill-based cards to the game to counter any luck, then it's fine. It's just that FTKs will always create an imbalance, and make sure that luck dominates.

The way Konami then saves the game from FTK mania is purposely making FTKs slightly less consistent than proper decks.

No, they don't need action because no amount of luck will get you away from pure odds. Empty Jar does top every so often, but they will nearly always fail at some hurdle. In fact, Empty Jar is one of the more skilled FTKs to play, which is why Konami doesn't mind it topping.

Everything else doesn't even touch those competitive areas, and is fine as it is.
[/quote]

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I'm reminded of one time on DN where I literally sat through my opponent's Mind Master loop for about 10 minutes. He could have gone Quasar super early on, but he had a completely other strategy. That was probably one of the closest games I came to "ragequitting" since, while I did admit defeat, my parting words were along the lines of "Games shouldn't be this painfully boring".

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[quote name='BehindTheMask' timestamp='1320877175' post='5629057']
Lemme see the math.
[/quote]
It's not very difficult. I did this once, and got the same thing, so he must being doing something right.

You just use hypogeometrics and factor in draw cards. Not too difficult :S

But, that is a rate of getting the combo first turn, excluding opposition. And, I guess you would have to divide by two to factor in the 50% chance of winning the die roll. This is also not including stacking or any turns following the first.

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I used to run Tempest FTK back when Card of Safe Return was legal. Since then I learned, FTKs are:

[b]When failed:[/b] Pretty much a one sided auto-loose.
[b]When achieved:[/b] Pretty boring for the opponent, and usually become auto pilot for the user (rather quickly)
Even when the combos are achieved, they tend to be easily disrupted with certain cards.

With no player to player interaction, with no further actions to take depending on your opponent's moves, they are flawed concepts that shouldn't exist, and if their existence can't be helped, they should be few and inconsistent.

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