Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I'm on the DN forums (yea yea, lol DN) and saw a thread on this. Guy's saying they're cheep and pretty much give guaranteed win (no I'm not linking Shard). He keeps using Exodia and Empty Jar, which have both been argued against, and has used the old Pulsar OTK as well, even though we've said it was retarded and would be shut down at the earliest possible time. So I'm asking, are the existing FTKs bad for the game? Do they win consistently enough that they f*ck it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laskeri - Unmei no Senshi Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 FTKs aren't particularly a problem, but they're not fun to play against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I dont find them fun to use, or to face. Any combo or strategy that involves playing cards with little to no opposing reaction or input for an extended period of time is dreadfully dull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAINTAIN GOD OF DUNDA MT. Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I use Cyber Dragon FTKs.. Thats it ._. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 [quote name='✪✪✪~Star~✪✪✪' timestamp='1320721232' post='5625432'] I use Cyber Dragon FTKs.. Thats it ._. [/quote] FTK? Or OTK? An FTK is capable of winning on the first turn of a duel (so it's usually Burn related or mill). An OTK is just dropping someone to 0 in a turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ieyasu Tokugawa Posted November 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Alright let me clear this up: I'm not exactly talking about if it's fun or not. I'm talking about if the existing ones are really bad enough to warrant some kind of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 For the most part, not that I am aware of. They fall just short of consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAINTAIN GOD OF DUNDA MT. Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 [quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1320721472' post='5625454'] FTK? Or OTK? An FTK is capable of winning on the first turn of a duel (so it's usually Burn related or mill). An OTK is just dropping someone to 0 in a turn. [/quote] Both. I sometimes do a FTK (Cyber Twin Dragon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 [quote name='✪✪✪~Star~✪✪✪' timestamp='1320721653' post='5625468'] Both. I sometimes do a FTK (Cyber Twin Dragon). [/quote] No. FTK can win the first turn of the duel even if YOU go first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAINTAIN GOD OF DUNDA MT. Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 [quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1320721715' post='5625474'] No. FTK can win the first turn of the duel even if YOU go first. [/quote] Ahh.. Take it back then. Yep OTK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Mathematically, the MOST consistent FTK is Empty Jar. Its percentage of winning, assuming you're running a near optimal build is around 69%. Exodia's a little lower at about 50%, depending on build. Most FTKs are bad for the game. They don't promote skill, but rather luck. Of course lucksacking will always happen, but if you can add more skill-based cards to the game to counter any luck, then it's fine. It's just that FTKs will always create an imbalance, and make sure that luck dominates. The way Konami then saves the game from FTK mania is purposely making FTKs slightly less consistent than proper decks. No, they don't need action because no amount of luck will get you away from pure odds. Empty Jar does top every so often, but they will nearly always fail at some hurdle. In fact, Empty Jar is one of the more skilled FTKs to play, which is why Konami doesn't mind it topping. Everything else doesn't even touch those competitive areas, and is fine as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 [quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1320722009' post='5625491'] Mathematically, the MOST consistent [i][b][u]legal[/u][/i][/b] FTK is Empty Jar. [/quote] fix'd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 [quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1320722156' post='5625503'] fix'd [/quote] Ahh yeah. There's the FRIENDSHIP IS TOTALLY GROSS BUT MAGIC FTK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 [quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1320722392' post='5625528'] Ahh yeah. There's the FRIENDSHIP IS TOTALLY GROSS BUT MAGIC FTK. [/quote] aka Makyura FTK. Konami just hates friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 ...what IS an optimal Empty Jar build? Idk, I've never run an FTK. I've run Fenix OTK, but got bored with it. I wanna FTK somebody without Exodia some time...just to do it.[quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1320722448' post='5625529'] aka Makyura FTK. Konami just hates friendship. [/quote] That's why Little Kuriboh is fun. Tea: Penguins... Joey: Hey, Yugi...does Tea sound alright to you? Yugi: What? What's wrong? Tea, are you ok? Tea: FRIENDSHIP. Yugi: Sounds alright to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARKPLANT RISING Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Yugioh's very game structure is kind against FTKs overall. In Duel Masters and other games where you need "Mana" stuff to work your way out, each game is slower, and there's nearly no FTKs (though the percentage of OTKs, on the other hand, is dramatically higher than Yugioh - at least from what I've heard). Yugioh doesn't need time to win; you can spam a bunch of high-levels from first turn if you build your deck right. Making the game faster promotes skill. FTKs are a necesarry evil, and I think the list's doing a good job trying to kill them as much as they can. Frogs are now dead. Empty Jar is the only real FTK that can live in tournaments, and even THEM rarely get far. Well, I honestly think that if a duelist using Empty Jar can top in tournaments, he is sure to have amazing skills of both siding and playing. While single duels with Empty Jars are rather autopilot, if someone can master it to that extent, I would call him a genius, and he'd probably be good at other decks too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahamut - Envoy of the End Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 My predominant thoughts: [quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1320721093' post='5625420'] I dont find them fun to use, or to face. Any combo or strategy that involves playing cards with little to no opposing reaction or input for an extended period of time is dreadfully dull. [/quote] Don't see how sitting there and doing the same systematic thing over and over while your opponent just sits there and watches you go through your system until its over can be any fun for either player. In terms of whether they are good/bad for YGO in general, I guess I'll agree with: [quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1320722009' post='5625491'] Most FTKs are bad for the game. They don't promote skill, but rather luck. Of course lucksacking will always happen, but if you can add more skill-based cards to the game to counter any luck, then it's fine. It's just that FTKs will always create an imbalance, and make sure that luck dominates. The way Konami then saves the game from FTK mania is purposely making FTKs slightly less consistent than proper decks. No, they don't need action because no amount of luck will get you away from pure odds. Empty Jar does top every so often, but they will nearly always fail at some hurdle. In fact, Empty Jar is one of the more skilled FTKs to play, which is why Konami doesn't mind it topping. Everything else doesn't even touch those competitive areas, and is fine as it is. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 FTKs take the game out of the game. I hate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I'm reminded of one time on DN where I literally sat through my opponent's Mind Master loop for about 10 minutes. He could have gone Quasar super early on, but he had a completely other strategy. That was probably one of the closest games I came to "ragequitting" since, while I did admit defeat, my parting words were along the lines of "Games shouldn't be this painfully boring". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Berserker- Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I don't really like them, except for the one I made by myself, with Fishborg. 2 Quasars on the field and Exodia in hand was fun to show off. Too bad not everybody wanted to wait 15 minutes to see it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cakey Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 ZTKs are ruining the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BehindTheMask Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 [quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1320722009' post='5625491'] Mathematically, the MOST consistent FTK is Empty Jar. Its percentage of winning, assuming you're running a near optimal build is around 69%. Exodia's a little lower at about 50%, depending on build. [/quote] Lemme see the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Michael Geren Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 [quote name='BehindTheMask' timestamp='1320877175' post='5629057'] Lemme see the math. [/quote] It's not very difficult. I did this once, and got the same thing, so he must being doing something right. You just use hypogeometrics and factor in draw cards. Not too difficult :S But, that is a rate of getting the combo first turn, excluding opposition. And, I guess you would have to divide by two to factor in the 50% chance of winning the die roll. This is also not including stacking or any turns following the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I used to run Tempest FTK back when Card of Safe Return was legal. Since then I learned, FTKs are: [b]When failed:[/b] Pretty much a one sided auto-loose. [b]When achieved:[/b] Pretty boring for the opponent, and usually become auto pilot for the user (rather quickly) Even when the combos are achieved, they tend to be easily disrupted with certain cards. With no player to player interaction, with no further actions to take depending on your opponent's moves, they are flawed concepts that shouldn't exist, and if their existence can't be helped, they should be few and inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilhorus Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Didn't Obelisks Magical Explosion FTK have a success rate of like 70%? I remember when we had the old Photon Veil that was 2 for 1. The previously said FTK was @87% success rate, iirc? :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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