Brinolovania Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1330571414' post='5849093'] have you ever been Maxx "C"'d when going Debris -> Dandy? it's a horrible feeling. also another reason why Debris would be at 3 is to throw some new life into the metagame. The banlist was designed to nerf the top 3 decks, but in addition to that you need to bring other decks up to their level for a varied metagame. Debris opens up a lot of deck ideas and adds life to the metagame, as well as punishes players who overextend anyway. Marshmallon would help decks that are terrible for the game but those decks aren't remotely good in the first place. [/quote]The fact that Maxx messes up broken things doesn't make them less broken. OK, I concede on that. Maybe just back to two though? Yeah, but they're still terrible for the game, and therefore shouldn't be promoted even if they are bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1330571414' post='5849093'] Evols are a big contributer, sporting an arsenal of Evo-Force + Najasho, Westlo + Book/Tsuku, Vulcano, etc. [/quote] Despite Evols getting a very well-needed boost and managing to top, Evols can have some consistency issues, most of which, is the lack of needed draw power (Soup is good, but it feels like it could have been designed better). Even if you manage to draw into the combos, the byakkformat still has the common disruption cards that are staples in every deck. Because of the nature of the Evol deck, the strategy has such gaping holes that most decks would be able to counter quite easily (Controlling the Evoltiles by preventing them from using their effects is pretty common, and the fact that hand-traps love it when you activate Evol effects makes it quite irksome). Evo-Force + Najasho combo helps aleviate this problem, but that is the only fool-proof way that you will get Laggia out against a generic deck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='Koloktos' timestamp='1330572125' post='5849117'] Despite Evols getting a very well-needed boost and managing to top, Evols can have some consistency issues, most of which, is the lack of needed draw power (Soup is good, but it feels like it could have been designed better). Even if you manage to draw into the combos, the byakkformat still has the common disruption cards that are staples in every deck. Because of the nature of the Evol deck, the strategy has such gaping holes that most decks would be able to counter quite easily (Controlling the Evoltiles by preventing them from using their effects is pretty common, and the fact that hand-traps love it when you activate Evol effects makes it quite irksome). Evo-Force + Najasho combo helps aleviate this problem, but that is the only fool-proof way that you will get Laggia out against a generic deck. [/quote] they don't really have consistency issues if they can play Protect the Evolsaur and the fact that they have a rota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1330572222' post='5849123'] they don't really have consistency issues if they can play Protect the Evolsaur and the fact that they have a rota [/quote] But Evo Miracle and Evo Karma are both terrible. The rota is a very good addition, and compensation gives the deck more aggro ability, but they need the card that keeps a good look over all of their weaknesses while moving the deck forward at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='Koloktos' timestamp='1330572607' post='5849148'] But Evo Miracle and Evo Karma are both terrible. The rota is a very good addition, and compensation gives the deck more aggro ability, but they need the card that keeps a good look over all of their weaknesses while moving the deck forward at the same time. [/quote] You protect Evolsaurs with good cards lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1330572786' post='5849162'] You protect Evolsaurs with good cards lol[/quote] Laggia's problem, is that he isn't specific enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1330572786' post='5849162'] You protect Evolsaurs with good cards lol [/quote] That's true. However, even protection has its limits. Laggia was designed to help protect the Evols so that they can develop into monsters like him. I just don't like the idea of limiting Laggia, since that just wipes out most of the Evoltile/Evolsaur's protective abilities. Evols are good, but not broken nor abusive. They don't really need the hit yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='Koloktos' timestamp='1330573243' post='5849176'] Evols are good-[/quote] Last I checked, the only Evol that actually sees competitive play is Laggia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Evols are amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 I am still opposed to the idea of limiting Grapha. The deck's consistency comes from the search power Snoww provides. The way it's easily searchable is what makes the deck so powerful, if it has no search cards then it loses the ability to be consistently dumped for a +1 summon each turn. With only access to draw power, and having to run other Dark Worlds to compensate for the discard outlets, the deck does get seriously hurt just by losing Snoww. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Michael Geren Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1330571414' post='5849093'] Marshmallon would help decks that are terrible for the game but those decks aren't remotely good in the first place. [/quote] Do you want those decks to be good? You're making them more playable :s I felt sorry for Jack on the first few pages [spoiler=Jesse] jesse 8:44:54 PM I feel sorry for Jack brandon geren 8:44:58 PM y jesse 8:45:09 PM like, everyone just sucks his dick 45:16 and he wants to actually argue with people brandon geren 8:45:24 PM really 45:25 well s*** 45:30 i want to argue with him 45:33 but not look stupid 45:35 got alts? 45:42 no wait that wont work 45:46 he wont accept a random. jesse 8:45:46 PM hmz brandon geren 8:45:47 PM hm 45:50 hmmmm jesse 8:45:52 PM hmz 45:57 well 46:07 I would argue that limited reaper is stupid brandon geren 8:46:32 PM it is jesse 8:46:39 PM hmz 46:45 okay arguments 47:35 so, tsukuyomi shouldn't come back because its a constant +1 and can be used in more than one way brandon geren 8:47:44 PM its not a +1 jesse 8:47:51 PM it is depending on how you use it brandon geren 8:47:52 PM argue that tsuku can go to 3 47:58 it should be at 3 jesse 8:48:00 PM OH s*** 48:03 HE FELL FOR IT 48:04 HAHAHA brandon geren 8:48:08 PM theres no difference between 1 and 3 48:10 fell for wat 48:11 link jesse 8:48:17 PM Limited: Inzektor Centipede 48:20 t1t2 brandon geren 8:48:22 PM idgi 48:24 whats the joke jesse 8:48:35 PM remember when I told you to do that 48:36 ? brandon geren 8:48:38 PM ya 48:41 what about it jesse 8:48:46 PM so I told him brandon geren 8:48:48 PM is it a bad idea? jesse 8:48:52 PM yes brandon geren 8:48:57 PM k go on 49:01 what did you tell him jesse 8:49:02 PM but like 49:05 lol he bought the idea 49:13 what a dumb ass brandon geren 8:49:15 PM what is the better way? 49:23 to hit the deck jesse 8:49:39 PM dragonfly duh 49:48 stupid b**** 49:50 <__< 50:08 dragonfly banned though 50:13 also 51:00 leviair shouldn't be banned because it discourages people to use gold sarcophagus 51:09 no that was a dumb argument 51:10 <__< 51:33 honestly, zenmaines should be banned 51:40 over banned leviair 51:55 since for a lot of people they can just sit their ass behind it and be like lol u mad 52:34 it also encourages stupid s*** like beating the crap out of someone then going for that and they have no outs [/spoiler] idk if i agree with Jesse's arguments, but just putting them here since he won't. [spoiler=Dave] [2/29/2012 8:50:35 PM] David Hommersen: each move makes sense in its own [2/29/2012 8:50:38 PM] Brandon Geren: and explain his thought [2/29/2012 8:50:39 PM] Brandon Geren: s [2/29/2012 8:50:40 PM] David Hommersen: but the format it creates is bad [2/29/2012 8:50:46 PM] Brandon Geren: yes exactly [2/29/2012 8:51:06 PM] Brandon Geren: also mention that jack played gbs awhile ago so he's biased and did that s*** with besti and book [2/29/2012 8:51:14 PM] David Hommersen: but like, [2/29/2012 8:51:19 PM] David Hommersen: 2 lonefire, 1 dandy, 3 debris [2/29/2012 8:51:20 PM] David Hommersen: dafuq? [2/29/2012 8:51:30 PM] Brandon Geren: oh ass [2/29/2012 8:51:36 PM] Brandon Geren: what other targets are there for plant s*** [2/29/2012 8:51:46 PM] David Hommersen: tyannial? [2/29/2012 8:51:53 PM] Brandon Geren: what else [2/29/2012 8:51:56 PM] David Hommersen: gigaplant [2/29/2012 8:52:02 PM] Brandon Geren: ew [2/29/2012 8:52:45 PM] David Hommersen: yeah [2/29/2012 8:52:50 PM] David Hommersen: since spore + glow are banned [2/29/2012 8:52:57 PM] David Hommersen: its bad now [2/29/2012 8:53:09 PM] David Hommersen: card dest is a great choice [2/29/2012 8:53:17 PM] David Hommersen: stops mjar otk's too [2/29/2012 8:53:43 PM] David Hommersen: Smoke Signal I disagree. [2/29/2012 8:53:54 PM] David Hommersen: Should have stayed at 1 imho [2/29/2012 8:53:56 PM] Brandon Geren: yeah [2/29/2012 8:53:59 PM] Brandon Geren: pretty much [2/29/2012 8:54:11 PM] David Hommersen: also, idgi [2/29/2012 8:54:17 PM] David Hommersen: why reaper to 1, marsh to 3 [2/29/2012 8:54:17 PM] Brandon Geren: you dont get what [2/29/2012 8:54:20 PM] Brandon Geren: oh [2/29/2012 8:54:20 PM] David Hommersen: like [2/29/2012 8:54:21 PM] Brandon Geren: well [2/29/2012 8:54:22 PM] David Hommersen: i've never understood [2/29/2012 8:54:24 PM] Brandon Geren: reaper is a much better card [2/29/2012 8:54:28 PM] Brandon Geren: are you f***ing serious [2/29/2012 8:54:29 PM] David Hommersen: but nobody uses 3. [2/29/2012 8:54:36 PM] Brandon Geren: i use 3 all the time [2/29/2012 8:54:38 PM] Brandon Geren: and people use 2 [2/29/2012 8:54:39 PM] David Hommersen: and marsh is still a good card in chain burn [2/29/2012 8:54:45 PM] Brandon Geren: so the 1 argument is a good one [2/29/2012 8:54:59 PM] Brandon Geren: 3 was good before windups and inzektors [2/29/2012 8:55:12 PM] Brandon Geren: in that part of the format around christmastime, 3 reaper was good stuff, just not very common [2/29/2012 8:55:31 PM] Brandon Geren: 0 veiler was played [2/29/2012 8:55:37 PM] David Hommersen: just bugs me about marsh monsters [2/29/2012 8:55:41 PM] David Hommersen: like the fool [2/29/2012 8:55:42 PM] David Hommersen: ect.. [2/29/2012 8:55:45 PM] Brandon Geren: well [2/29/2012 8:55:54 PM] Brandon Geren: im not saying that marshmallon should be at 3 [2/29/2012 8:55:59 PM] Brandon Geren: but reaper at 1 is ok [2/29/2012 8:56:05 PM] Brandon Geren: and marshmallon is worse than reaper [2/29/2012 8:56:06 PM] David Hommersen: I like reaper to 1 [2/29/2012 8:57:47 PM] David Hommersen: banning of leviair is awk [2/29/2012 8:57:55 PM] Brandon Geren: i agree with it [2/29/2012 8:58:01 PM] Brandon Geren: and i can see where he's coming from [2/29/2012 8:58:09 PM] David Hommersen: limiting it would suffice [2/29/2012 8:58:11 PM] Brandon Geren: if you've ever seen him or his teammates play, you would know [2/29/2012 8:58:15 PM] Brandon Geren: no it really wouldn't [2/29/2012 8:58:17 PM] Brandon Geren: are you retarded [2/29/2012 8:58:24 PM] Brandon Geren: everybody runs 1 leviair [2/29/2012 8:58:28 PM] Brandon Geren: except in windups and rabbit [2/29/2012 8:58:32 PM] David Hommersen: well like [2/29/2012 8:58:35 PM] David Hommersen: I think TGU is the main problem [2/29/2012 8:58:43 PM] Brandon Geren: plus leviair has loops with windups [2/29/2012 8:58:45 PM] David Hommersen: decks that abuse leviair all run tgu [2/29/2012 8:58:49 PM] Brandon Geren: "" [2/29/2012 8:59:05 PM] Brandon Geren: loops for deckout under maxx c mostly tho [2/29/2012 8:59:13 PM] Brandon Geren: dont achieve a thing [2/29/2012 8:59:21 PM] David Hommersen: oh [2/29/2012 8:59:23 PM] David Hommersen: im not gonna lie [2/29/2012 8:59:31 PM] David Hommersen: I don't know the leviar loop [2/29/2012 8:59:38 PM] David Hommersen: maybe its just me [2/29/2012 8:59:40 PM] Brandon Geren: i dont either [2/29/2012 8:59:45 PM] Brandon Geren: it has to do with rabbit and rat [2/29/2012 8:59:49 PM] Brandon Geren: and leviair obv [2/29/2012 8:59:50 PM] David Hommersen: but i don't feel like leviair is as huge of a card as other stuff [2/29/2012 8:59:54 PM] David Hommersen: but like [2/29/2012 8:59:56 PM] David Hommersen: Its only 9 more ss's [2/29/2012 8:59:58 PM] David Hommersen: idk [2/29/2012 9:00:02 PM] David Hommersen: im bad [2/29/2012 9:00:06 PM] Brandon Geren: but [2/29/2012 9:00:07 PM] Brandon Geren: again [2/29/2012 9:00:14 PM] Brandon Geren: he could see it as a better card than us [2/29/2012 9:00:22 PM] David Hommersen: yeah, i dont play w/ him [2/29/2012 9:00:24 PM] Brandon Geren: i dont think youve ever watched him or his teammates war [2/29/2012 9:00:32 PM] Brandon Geren: they use leviair all the time [2/29/2012 9:00:34 PM] Brandon Geren: and win with it [2/29/2012 9:00:42 PM] Brandon Geren: they use leviair more than anyone ive ever seen [2/29/2012 9:00:43 PM] David Hommersen: chaos engine is still good [2/29/2012 9:00:45 PM] Brandon Geren: and they use it properly [2/29/2012 9:00:48 PM] David Hommersen: with chaos sorc [2/29/2012 9:00:48 PM] David Hommersen: grabbing rai-oh [2/29/2012 9:00:53 PM] David Hommersen: ect.. [2/29/2012 9:00:58 PM] Brandon Geren: OH f*** [2/29/2012 9:00:58 PM] David Hommersen: thats how it should be. [/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airride Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='byakklon Omega' timestamp='1330573818' post='5849202'] Evols are amazing [/quote]Not yet. Not...yet. Good? Fo sho. Amazing?...Hm...Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synchronized Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 I actually kind of like this list, but there's two things in particular that I don't like at all. [b]Bestiari @3[/b]: Maybe I'm totally wrong on this, but putting Bestiari back at 3 essentially takes everything Glads need to be fantastic again and gives it back to them. In a format that still has MST @3 and Heavy Storm @1, there's even [i]more[/i] backrow hate on that end, regardless of the fact that Glads don't even need to max this out to win. That said, I think keeping this at 1 just sort of hurts the consistency of Glads while still keeping them a viable option with Prisma, Darius, etc. [b]Evolzar Laggia @1[/b]: I don't really like this one either, as I'm not sure Laggia is the problem. Personally, I don't like Rescue Rabbit because it just promotes Xyz spam at little to no cost, despite the fact that you hit Leviair (which definitely slows the Deck down), Laggia's not that hard to get around at all. I actually think it challenges players to use their cards more wisely, and requires more thinking on the end of both players as to whether or not its worth it to negate the card and keep Laggia safe, or wait and end up walking into a trap of some sort. Plus, you got rid of Avarice, so making multiple Laggia's in one turn is nowhere near as easy at it would have been before, or at least not as consistent. I just don't think it's necessary to hit this, because it gives Evols a solid boss monster as well, and they're a balanced Deck. By the way, to anyone that thinks otherwise, Evols are actually quite good. The one thing that hinders them right now is the slight lack of consistency, but once they get the RotA, they'll pretty much have any tools they need in their arsenal to be competitive, hence why the topped and will more than likely continue to do so. Good list though, except for those few things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Laggia should be @1, idk why you people think it shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1330616019' post='5849755'] Laggia should be @1, idk why you people think it shouldn't. [/quote] Because evols,a perfectly fine archtype,would be unplayable because brokerabbit.dek abuses laggia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1330616183' post='5849757'] Because evols,a perfectly fine archtype,would be unplayable because brokerabbit.dek abuses laggia. [/quote] Apparently this is logic. Rescue Cat is good in X-Sabers, but stupid Equipment Cat abused it. So it should come back for X-Sabers than? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1330616668' post='5849769'] Apparently this is logic. Rescue Cat is good in X-Sabers, but stupid Equipment Cat abused it. So it should come back for X-Sabers than? [/quote] [u]ALL[/u] the decks rescue cat made were degenerate and broken,non rabbit evols are not degenerate nor broken and are fine in the meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synchronized Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1330616019' post='5849755'] Laggia should be @1, idk why you people think it shouldn't. [/quote] I don't understand why you think it should, though. It's a one-time negation, and extremely easy to get around if you play it smart; especially when you consider it's weak enough to run over with plenty of things, and if they negate your summon, you just drop Smashing Ground/Dark Hole, etc. I never have problems with Laggia; it's Rabbit that's the problem. That, and Leviair, which he already banned on this list so there's no issue there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Don't worry guys. Solemn Judgment's a 1-time negate only, and it costs half your life points! You can even get rid of it with Mystical Space Typhoon so it isn't a problem really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='evilchris' timestamp='1330617689' post='5849794'] Don't worry guys. Solemn Judgment's a 1-time negate only, and it costs half your life points! You can even get rid of it with Mystical Space Typhoon so it isn't a problem really! [/quote] Laggia =/= Solemn Judgment Laggia isnt splashable off the fly and only belongs to a specific okay but not broken archtype with rabbit dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synchronized Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='evilchris' timestamp='1330617689' post='5849794'] Don't worry guys. Solemn Judgment's a 1-time negate only, and it costs half your life points! You can even get rid of it with Mystical Space Typhoon so it isn't a problem really! [/quote] ... I don't understand. Solemn Judgment is generic, and doesn't require a specific type to play around. If Rabbit was gone, or at least at 1, the ability to drop Laggia first turn would be slim to none. It's like comparing Raigeki to Ojama Delta Hurricane. One requires certain cards to work, and the other is completely splashable in anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Guys, Shi-en should totally go to 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='Canadian' timestamp='1330618381' post='5849801'] Guys, Shi-en should totally go to 3. [/quote] And a free dark bribe-ish monster is comparable to a solemn judgment-ish monster how...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='mido9' timestamp='1330618667' post='5849807'] And a free dark bribe is comparable to a solemn judgment how...? [/quote] Six Sams spam Shi En every turn. Shi En negates less than Laggia. Laggia just so happens to be just as easy, if not easier, to spam. Honestly YCM is full of idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='evilchris' timestamp='1330618952' post='5849812'] Six Sams spam Shi En every turn. Shi En negates less than Laggia. Laggia just so happens to be just as easy, if not easier, to spam. Honestly YCM is full of idiots. [/quote] Laggia is only spammable consistently in dino rabbit,which is killed with fire,evols are inconsistent to an extent,actually need to use up some resources to get out laggia,and are fine in the meta. What's wrong with keeping a good but not broken deck playable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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