S/T Control.

[HSektor]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1343948570' post='5995697']
Hitting Spell Trap destruction promotes stall, which is bad for the game. Continuous S/T aren't even that good, unless they're like Chain, CotH, or Horn of the Phantom Beast, all of which can still see use. So, what was your point again?
[/quote]

Stall is why I'm against Heavy Storm being banned. Also, if by any reasons stall decks becomes meta in a format with 1 MST, people will just side in Night Shot or Dust Tornado.

About the Continuous S/Ts...well, I'm a casual player, so yeah I'm pretty much buttfrustrated.

[byak]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1343948570' post='5995697']
Hitting Spell Trap destruction promotes stall, which is bad for the game. Continuous S/T aren't even that good, unless they're like Chain, CotH, or Horn of the Phantom Beast, all of which can still see use. So, what was your point again?
[/quote]

Not hitting s/t destruction promotes OTKs, which are bad for the game.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='βyakk' timestamp='1343949234' post='5995718']
Not hitting s/t destruction promotes OTKs, which are bad for the game.
[/quote]

Hit OTKs.

Problem solved.

[mido9]

[quote name='βyakk' timestamp='1343949234' post='5995718']
Not hitting s/t destruction promotes OTKs, which are bad for the game.
[/quote]
OTKs promote OTKs,which are bad for game.

[byak]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1343949327' post='5995720']
Hit OTKs.

Problem solved.
[/quote]

Hit stall win conditions.

Problem solved.

[ＯＳＩＲＩＳ]

Who knew such a simple effect could cripple a whole deck if used right..... But I will say that MST is almost a requirement for the game to live on.
Long live MST.
Heavy Storm can die in a fire.

[Alice Moonflowyr]

Heavy is necessary, otherwise set five stall decks would reign supreme. Seriously, Heavy banned isnt fun.

I get super pissed at WC11 when the AI does a set five and two of those are bottomlessses and ones a MF.

[Sunshine Jesse]

[quote name='βyakk' timestamp='1343949234' post='5995718']
Not hitting s/t destruction promotes OTKs, which are bad for the game.
[/quote]
Call me bad but I'd prefer an OTK format to a "set 5 pass" format. I found getting cheesed by a random-ass OTK in Tele-DAD/Rescue Cat format to be infinitely more enjoyable than getting your s*** pushed in by the pre-EXCV decks in March 2011 (Samurai, GK, Heroes)

Preventitive trap cards don't prevent OTKs any better than they help them anyways. (or at least prevent coming back)

[Coffee Black]

My issue with the Heavy-less format was that it seemed like 90% of people just did "set 4, go". Trunade made the format twice as worse, but still, every game seemed exactly the same. I personally can't stand redundancy, so I hated it.

This format isn't good, mainly because there are consistent OTK's, hand loops, troll decks (Rabbit, DW, Contdown) which are effective to say the least. I think blaming all that on Heavy is a stretch; I agree with the people who say that weakening these overall strategies would be better than just banning Heavy.

[Agro]

I hate to get into these conversations, but I may as well give my two cents.

There's a balance between OTKing and Stall here, that much is obvious. We also have a lot of secondary S/T destruction behind MST, much of which is slower and by many people considered to be more balanced. While I think that most people would say that Heavy Storm is an evil, in that it is almost as bad as Cold Wave or Trunade in how it OTKs, most smart people would also point out that it's necessary because it discourages overextending. While MST and Heavy share, in some ways, their evils, Heavy does not have a suitable alternative. There is nothing slower that will discourage overextending while also not promoting OTKs. That's why, at this point, I think Heavy should stay where it is.

MST, on the other hand, I believe we should honestly think about. I've heard arguments that hitting MST wouldn't make a difference since people would just run substitutes, such as Dust Tornado or Night Shot. But is that really a problem? The argument from the other side about "losing their continuous spells/traps" if they decided to play them wasn't really there much before MST was at 3, was it? Dust Tornado and Night Shot are slower and I'd say require more thought in their use, or at least cause it when played.

Also, saw that argument about how MST keeps other powerful cards in check. I don't completely like that argument. Though it may make things like Gravity Bind, Level Limit - Area B, Messenger of Peace, Wall of Revealing Light, or whatever the f*ck else someone may use 'more in check', those sorts of things should be hit themselves, just like the OTKs many people have argued hitting instead. And as for things like Call of the Haunted being kept in check, if those few cards need destruction to be kept in check, and that same destruction makes a lot of other cards virtually useless, is it really necessary to keep them around even with collateral damage? I'm not sure I agree.

So basically, my argument is this: If we're going to hit OTKs instead of S/T destruction, we should also hit stall as a counter-measure. This way, we can find a more balanced place to decide where we want our Spell/Trap destruction, since I still don't think 3 MST is necessary. Heavy should stay where it is, for the reasons explained before, until an alternative comes along that doesn't assist OTKs which will inevitably pop up (this still is Konami after all).

Kay, thanks, bye.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Without Heavy Storm, how will Suicidebackrow.dek function?! You expect them to use STORM? What if the opponent doesn't use spells and traps?!

[El Majishan]

Ok, this is how I see it. With Heavy people are just paranoid to set more than 1-2 cards because they don't want to lose advantage because they were derp Heavy'ed. Yes Heavy punished over extension, but it also promotes OTK's just like any other mass removal card in the game. If we hit Heavy we promote stall....so why not just hit the stall cards like you guys suggested we hit the OTK cards?

We have a s*** load of S/T Control in the game both generic and themed. From MST, Night Beams, Seven Tools, Trap Stuns, Dust, Breaker, Hyunlei ect ect. I actually rather a summon, set 4 format where I have to play smart and get around back rows to gain advantage instead of "Derp Heavy Storm...I can go off now...I'm soooo pro."

[.Rai]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344008910' post='5996297']
Ok, this is how I see it. With Heavy people are just paranoid to set more than 1-2 cards because they don't want to lose advantage because they were derp Heavy'ed. Yes Heavy punished over extension, but it also promotes OTK's just like any other mass removal card in the game. If we hit Heavy we promote stall....so why not just hit the stall cards like you guys suggested we hit the OTK cards?
We have a s*** load of S/T Control in the game both generic and themed. From MST, Night Beams, Seven Tools, Trap Stuns, Dust, Breaker, Hyunlei ect ect. I actually rather a summon, set 4 format where I have to play smart and get around back rows to gain advantage instead of "Derp Heavy Storm...I can go off now...I'm soooo pro."
[/quote]

If you hit Heavy, decks won't be 'stalling', they'll be setting 5.

Meaning you'd have to hit a myriad of perfectly balanced Traps.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1344009095' post='5996300']
If you hit Heavy, decks won't be 'stalling', they'll be setting 5.

Meaning you'd have to hit a myriad of perfectly balanced Traps.
[/quote]

No we wont have to hit any traps. Even if you set 5....I still have ways to combat that. I have many cards at my disposal to get around people setting. One card that comes to mind is Trap Stun. The card is amazing...and balanced, only reason we don't run it because we have Heavy.

[.Rai]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344009498' post='5996304']
No we wont have to hit any traps. Even if you set 5....I still have ways to combat that. I have many cards at my disposal to get around people setting. One card that comes to mind is Trap Stun. The card is amazing...and balanced, only reason we don't run it because we have Heavy.
[/quote]

Not really. The only reason any deck will use it is as in OTK decks as a replacement for Heavy because they have nothing else.

I doubt it will be used in normal decks.

On the other hand, if you just get rid of the OTKs, Heavy can't be used in OTKs anyway but can still be used in normal decks as an overextension measure.

[This Account is Unplayable]

You can't honestly think you can compare Trap Stun to Heavy in terms of dealing with their backrow overextension, surely...

You Trap Stun them 1 turn. Kill their dude. They draw another dude and play it. You're now staring down another guy with 4-5 backrows and you're in the same spot as beforehand.

Being forced to run a crap ton of anti-backrow cards makes for a worse format. Hell, look at March 11.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1344009630' post='5996306']
Not really. The only reason any deck will use it is as in OTK decks as a replacement for Heavy because they have nothing else.

I doubt it will be used in normal decks.

On the other hand, if you just get rid of the OTKs, Heavy can't be used in OTKs anyway but can still be used in normal decks as an overextension measure.
[/quote]

A lot of decks used trap stun when we had no heavy...the line up was usually Seven Tools, Trunade, MST, Trap Stun and some decks used Cold Wave if they needed it to go off.

One of the main reasons I'm turned off by heavy is this....why should a player be punished for setting multiple cards that would prevent him from losing? I get the argument that people should be conservative with resources...but the constant mind f*** that heavy has on the game results in people losing because they didn't set that 1 extra card because they didn't want to get Heavy'ed. With a no-heavy format....we still have enough cards to deal with back row, only thing we don't have is derp heavy....+2 for me.

[Blake]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344010233' post='5996312']
A lot of decks used trap stun when we had no heavy...the line up was usually Seven Tools, Trunade, MST, Trap Stun and some decks used Cold Wave if they needed it to go off.

One of the main reasons I'm turned off by heavy is this....why should a player be punished for setting multiple cards that would prevent him from losing? I get the argument that people should be conservative with resources...but the constant mind f*** that heavy has on the game results in people losing because they didn't set that 1 extra card because they didn't want to get Heavy'ed. With a no-heavy format....we still have enough cards to deal with back row, only thing we don't have is derp heavy....+2 for me.
[/quote]
Dear God, do you even understand how to play this damn game?

MST is debatable. Heavy is not. Removing Heavy from the game does nothing but encourage overextension. If you are so scared of "BUT WHAT IF I GET HEAVIED" then Dark Hole must be just as bad, right? But it's not. It keeps stupid swarm (that doesn't OTK) in check, just like Heavy keeps stupid amount of backrow in check.

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1344009894' post='5996308']
You can't honestly think you can compare Trap Stun to Heavy in terms of dealing with their backrow overextension, surely...

You Trap Stun them 1 turn. Kill their dude. They draw another dude and play it. You're now staring down another guy with 4-5 backrows and you're in the same spot as beforehand.

Being forced to run a crap ton of anti-backrow cards makes for a worse format. Hell, look at March 11.
[/quote]

I enjoyed March 11 format to be honest...and you also seem to be under they impression that you cant set 4-5 back row yourself.

Trap Stun is and never will be as good as heavy...but the card is balanced where as heavy is not.

[This Account is Unplayable]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344010407' post='5996314']
I enjoyed March 11 format to be honest...and you also seem to be under they impression that you cant set 4-5 back row yourself.

Trap Stun is and never will be as good as heavy...but the card is balanced where as heavy is not.
[/quote]

So you find it fun to have 2 players just set 5 and have a monster?

That's boring as f***.

[Agro]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1344010588' post='5996316']
So you find it fun to have 2 players just set 5 and have a monster?

That's boring as f***.
[/quote]Come now, a Rabbit Mirror isn't THAT bad. Cept the fact that it's a Rabbit Mirror.

[Catterjune]

[quote name='Chris' timestamp='1344010588' post='5996316']
So you find it fun to have 2 players just set 5 and have a monster?

That's boring as f***.
[/quote]
Boring? Maybe.

Harmful to the game. Not likely.

No one cares about my opinion on this, but it seems to me you all need to remember two things:

1) Keeping your opponent from winning does not equal winning. If someone is stalling hard that won't make them win, that'll just make them be a pain in the ass to duel. So then, clearly there has to be [i]something else[/i] that makes stall unacceptable, if in fact it is unacceptable.

2) For the people who find Heavy unacceptable, why is it in fact bad? "Heavy. Pass." Isn't a good play by any means. So is there then [i]something else[/i] that makes Heavy Storm a card not meant to be used in this meta?

[El Majishan]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1344010385' post='5996313']
Dear God, do you even understand how to play this damn game?

MST is debatable. Heavy is not. Removing Heavy from the game does nothing but encourage overextension. If you are so scared of "BUT WHAT IF I GET HEAVIED" then Dark Hole must be just as bad, right? But it's not. It keeps stupid swarm (that doesn't OTK) in check, just like Heavy keeps stupid amount of backrow in check.
[/quote]

I clearly do know how to play because I seem to do quite well in it.

Also....you seem to think heavy is balanced. The card is clearly broken....they only argument you guys have is that it is "needed" so you wont have to deal with a large amount of back row.

But what are back row cards for? Usually to protect the player in some way correct? So why should a player lose 2-3 of their protection cards because the other played 1 unskillful card?

Without heavy...they format usually slows down...and as I recalled slow formats are good formats.

And again...they game is filled with a lot of BALANCED S/T control that don't see play because we have Heavy.

[.Rai]

Boring isn't bad for the game?

What on earth?

[Blake]

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344010907' post='5996319']
I clearly do know how to play because I seem to do quite well in it.
[/quote]
You clearly don't given you think Cold Wave can come back.

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344010907' post='5996319']
Also....you seem to think heavy is balanced. The card is clearly broken....they only argument you guys have is that it is "needed" so you wont have to deal with a large amount of back row.
[/quote]
It's a necessary evil, not balanced.

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344010907' post='5996319']
But what are back row cards for? Usually to protect the player in some way correct? So why should a player lose 2-3 of their protection cards because the other played 1 unskillful card?
[/quote]
Why should a player be allowed to hoard multiple protection cards without any significant worry?

[quote name='Le Magician' timestamp='1344010907' post='5996319']
Without heavy...they format usually slows down...and as I recalled slow formats are good formats.

And again...they game is filled with a lot of BALANCED S/T control that don't see play because we have Heavy.
[/quote]
March 2011 was a terrible format, to almost everyone. Just because you enjoyed it doesn't mean you're the majority.

And having to devote too much deck space to S/T hate is bad for the game. You shouldn't have to spend 6-10 slots trying to keep your Opp's backrow in check.