This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 If you played Grapha that turn, odds are you can't play it again. By virtue of lack of good special summonable monsters. Otherwise, you help your opponent dig for more cards to SS Beiige. Oh and, most decks swarm better than DWs, just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Tigerwolf Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Meta~' timestamp='1352827909' post='6068303'] BLS and remove your Gates. We can both play this game if you want. [/quote] Nah. It would turn sour. And again, it's because of the format that I don't see these guys moving up or down in said format. They can happily stay where they are (until I get my tourguides anyway...) @Chirs - Pretty much, and the only viable way they can keep up is dropping Card Destruction first turn...and hope your not against Mirror Match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A._Sakuyamon Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Meta~' timestamp='1352828090' post='6068309'] And then you pass your turn they bring out Hyperion, pop your Dragon then Krystia your face. Again you say that like they can't do anything back to you. [/quote] And again you say that as If I cant do anything back to prevent it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='♥ D.A._Siegfried ♥' timestamp='1352828257' post='6068314'] And again you say that as If I cant do anything back to prevent it. [/quote] Which brings us to a standstill because it's being a reactive game. Just because you can ram something doesn't mean I suddenly have no options. And just because I can pop something doesn't mean you have no options. (Also I'd like to see how DWs get around Kristya with all their Grapha's in Grave) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 DWs can keep up with the meta, just not in a game with such a simplified state that people use to call DWs broken. Games rarely hit a simplified state, and DWs are one of the best decks in the game, without a doubt. They just have consistency issues due to only being able to run 7 Grapha targets.[quote name='Meta~' timestamp='1352828394' post='6068316'] Which brings us to a standstill because it's being a reactive game. Just because you can ram something doesn't mean I suddenly have no options. And just because I can pop something doesn't mean you have no options. (Also I'd like to see how DWs get around Kristya with all their Grapha's in Grave) [/quote] Compulse. TT, Dark Hole, Book of Moon. Or scoop and side in Rykos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darj Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 For Grapha... - Deck is naturally inconsistent due to tiny monster count and requiring to have discard outlets plus monsters - Only one other good monster in his archetype (Snoww) - Only win condition the deck has - Loses to being banished And... seriously, you're making not being self-revivable a "-" on them? If it were that necessary to keep them, then those decks would run CotH. .-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Are you people really this f***ing dense? He's not arguing that Grapha isn't broken, he's arguing that he's not as broken as your butthurt leads you to believe, and that other bosses are worse. Also, that list of boss monsters is f***ing awful because you're looking at the cards in vacuum, and you're placing all Pros and Cons as equals. 7 Okay to Good targets is a HEAVY con. Fortress is far more broken than you give it credit to (Take your bias goggles off). Lemme put it like this: Fortress has a function similar to that of Laggia. It forces your opponent to find removal, or risk getting their hand hit/card popped. This can force overextension, waste of advantage, and the like. It weighs out any -1 the card causes. At that, it's a -1 with decent stats, so it's no different than a monarch. On top of THAT, Machine is a type full of searchers that circumvent that cost. You can't just say "OH THIS HAS MORE PLUSSES, DURRRRR" and be done. Honestly, the people that are heavily invested in Chance Format should learn to be better at this game before they start commenting everywhere. There are only 2 people in that group that I don't mind seeing post, generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sander Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 What I despise is not Grapha, but Dragged Down into the Grave / Card Destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think people just say Dragged Down's not fair because it attacks decks in a way they're not used to. It's just a different way the deck can play the game. That's not a bad thing. I'll agree that Card Destruction is borked though. But god, the last time I resolved one that actually won me the game must've been forever ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Master Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Yeah, Fortress is a big piece of ass. But really, I got so off topic I started making myself look like an idiot to me. So let me try and do a logical look at this card. It can SS itself from the Graveyard. When discarded by a card effect, it gets to pop one of your opponent's cards. It's easy to summon from the Graveyard and when it is it's 2700 or 3000. Unless you run cards that Banish(which you should at least a Bottomless), it's a pain to get rid of. It can basically be your Normal Summon for the turn. It's not as awful as I said it was, but it should be limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Why should it be limited? Describing what a card does doesn't prove it to be broken in any way. This isn't a vacuum, a card is banned because of how well it performs in the game, and if it's too strong or degenerate, then it deserves the treatment of being axed. Throughout yugioh's history, Konami's been very careful with approaching recurring monsters, the only notable monsters before Grapha being Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys which ended up getting limited because it was insanely good for its time, and Light and Darkness Dragon, which couldn't even bring back itself, was mandatory, and nuked its controller's board. Spore and Glow-Up can be honourable mentions, but they're not exactly the deck's big finish, and Konami have shown that they believe they're too good. Because of this, the playerbase naturally has grown to consider graveyard recursion to be overpowered, which they shouldn't, especially in the case of Grapha. Being recurable is the only thing that makes him strong enough to even be worth a deck. And yugioh's not a vacuum. Other decks perform far better without even needing the recurability. Grapha's the best at what he does, reviving himself, but that's because he has no competition. Konami made an excellent choice for the archetype in which to include him. A deck that can easily get him into the graveyard, but one which has to jump through hoops to do so. These hoops will be the deck's natural lack of good monsters, and thus huge reliance on just a few. If he's actually broken, then I'm sure someone can at least make a compelling argument in a competitive environment to show it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darj Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1352830168' post='6068347'] For Grapha... - Deck is naturally inconsistent due to tiny monster count and requiring to have discard outlets plus monsters - Only one other good monster in his archetype (Snoww) - Only win condition the deck has - Loses to being banished And... seriously, you're making not being self-revivable a "-" on them? If it were that necessary to keep them, then those decks would run CotH. .-. [/quote] Yeah, my mistake, not being self-revivable shouldn't be considered a (-), but rather neutral. Now could you please stop making fun of it with your sig? Thanks. [quote name='Reborn Black' timestamp='1352830317' post='6068351'] Are you people really this f***ing dense? He's not arguing that Grapha isn't broken, he's arguing that he's not as broken as your butthurt leads you to believe, and that other bosses are worse. Also, that list of boss monsters is f***ing awful because you're looking at the cards in vacuum, and you're placing all Pros and Cons as equals. 7 Okay to Good targets is a HEAVY con. Fortress is far more broken than you give it credit to (Take your bias goggles off). Lemme put it like this: Fortress has a function similar to that of Laggia. It forces your opponent to find removal, or risk getting their hand hit/card popped. This can force overextension, waste of advantage, and the like. It weighs out any -1 the card causes. At that, it's a -1 with decent stats, so it's no different than a monarch. On top of THAT, Machine is a type full of searchers that circumvent that cost. You can't just say "OH THIS HAS MORE PLUSSES, DURRRRR" and be done. Honestly, the people that are heavily invested in Chance Format should learn to be better at this game before they start commenting everywhere. There are only 2 people in that group that I don't mind seeing post, generally. [/quote] You know what? I admit that I was biased, that I have been doing stupid comments recently, and that I dislike Grapha because as a Fortress player I find ridiculous how smart players can turn my Boss against me by forcing me to discard their own Grapha/Snoww. So peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Voltex' timestamp='1352833013' post='6068385'] Yeah, my mistake, not being self-revivable shouldn't be considered a (-), but rather neutral. Now could you please stop making fun of it with your sig? Thanks. [/quote] No. It's funny because it's such a dumb statement to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizarus Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Reborn Black' timestamp='1352830317' post='6068351'] Are you people really this f***ing dense? He's not arguing that Grapha isn't broken, he's arguing that he's not as broken as your butthurt leads you to believe, and that other bosses are worse. Also, that list of boss monsters is f***ing awful because you're looking at the cards in vacuum, and you're placing all Pros and Cons as equals. 7 Okay to Good targets is a HEAVY con. Fortress is far more broken than you give it credit to (Take your bias goggles off). Lemme put it like this: Fortress has a function similar to that of Laggia. It forces your opponent to find removal, or risk getting their hand hit/card popped. This can force overextension, waste of advantage, and the like. It weighs out any -1 the card causes. At that, it's a -1 with decent stats, so it's no different than a monarch. On top of THAT, Machine is a type full of searchers that circumvent that cost. You can't just say "OH THIS HAS MORE PLUSSES, DURRRRR" and be done. Honestly, the people that are heavily invested in Chance Format should learn to be better at this game before they start commenting everywhere. There are only 2 people in that group that I don't mind seeing post, generally. [/quote] The fact that other boss monsters are worse is irrelevant, because they ideally would be hit too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Wizarus' timestamp='1352835857' post='6068425'] The fact that other boss monsters are worse is irrelevant, because they ideally would be hit too. [/quote] I know that. Doesn't change the fact that his list basically ignored everything and blamed Grapha far more than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 If ALL these bosses are broken, then they're not actually broken, they're the new standard for card design. Sorry guys, we can't go back to the days where Airknight Parshath is the best thing ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 The problem people have with Grapha, is just he comes back. Other boss's normally stay dead so people get a feeling of having achieved something. Or cost a lot to bring back like Fortress. I have no major problem with him, becuase Dark World take a degree of skill to play, compared to a lot of other decks. And yeah, he's broken, but so is an awful lot of other cards. And whilst I do have some problems with a single card making a deck as powerful as it is, I can't call Grapha list worthy broken, becuase he isn't. It's just a pain to play against, but good players find counters. I've probably just repeated what other people have said, but thats my take on him anyway. And I doubt Dark Worlds with ever do well enough for this to get hit in the first place. They shall remain rogue as ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Archbaron Barthandelus' timestamp='1352836377' post='6068432'] The problem people have with Grapha, is just he comes back. Other boss's normally stay dead so people get a feeling of having achieved something. Or cost a lot to bring back like Fortress. [/quote] People just tend to ignore that other bosses also do a lot of funky stuff while on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Lets just throw the term "broken" around more, since no one seems to realise what it actually means! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I don't really see what Chance Format has to do with any of this. It's just an alternate list for people who want a bit of variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='Chris' timestamp='1352836693' post='6068439'] Lets just throw the term "broken" around more, since no one seems to realise [b]what it actually means[/b]! [/quote] I've given this rant countless times It's annoying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1352837005' post='6068443'] I don't really see what Chance Format has to do with any of this. It's just an alternate list for people who want a bit of variety. [/quote] He was talking about the people that actually play it. Almost all of them seem to be the type of people that hate anything strong and consistent. Hence why they'd even play Chance format, which looks terrible to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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