Blake Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Note: Not ideal at all. Not trying to take care of all the badly designed cards in the game, just trying to slow the game down a bit to where I'm more or less comfortable with it. Also to reduce the amount of sacky topdeck wins and cards that just give you far too much advantage, physical or otherwise, for even using it. Also to kill off alt wins and such. Banned: Archlord Kristya Atlantean Dragoons Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning Blackwing - Kalut the Moon Shadow Brotherhood of the Fire Fist - Chicken Bujin Relic - Habakiri Dark Armed Dragon Elemental HERO Stratos Exodia the Forbidden One Herald of Perfection Honest Inzektor Dragonfly Inzektor Hornet Judgment Dragon Morphing Jar Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon Blaze Fenix, the Burning Bombardment Bird Karakuri Shogun Mdl 00 "Burei" Shooting Quasar Dragon T.G. Hyper Librarian Constellar Ptolemy M7 Gaia Dragon, the Thunder Charger Lavalval Chain Madolche Queen Tiaramisu Number 6: Chronomaly Atlando Number 16: Shock Master Card Destruction Chain Strike Final Countdown Gateway of the Six Gem-Knight Fusion Gishki Aquamirror Infernity Launcher Limiter Removal Rekindling Royal Tribute Spellbook of Judgment Abyss-sphere Chain Material Return from the Different Dimension Ultimate Offering Limited: Blaster, Dragon Ruler of Infernos Brotherhood of the Fire Fist - Bear Constellar Sombre Enthusiastic Beast Wolfberk Evilswarm Kerykeion Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World High Priestess of Prophecy Infernity Archfiend Madolche Hootcake Master Hyperion Mermail Abysslinde Nimble Angler Redox, Dragon Ruler of Boulders Rescue Rabbit Sangan Snoww, Unlight of Dark World Tempest, Dragon Ruler of Storms Thunder Sea Horse Tidal, Dragon Ruler of Waterfalls Tour Guide from the Underworld Karakuri Steel Shogun Mdl 00X "Bureido" Evilswarm Bahamut Evilswarm Ophion Gear Gigant X Hieratic King of Atum King of the Feral Imps Madolche Ticket Wind-Up Factory Semilimited: Blackwing - Gale the Whirlwind Bujin - Yamato Mahunder Pahunder Book of Moon Fire Formation - Tenki Forbidden Lance Unlimited: Thunder King Rai Oh E - Emergency Call Pot of Duality Formula Synchron Alright, on to explanations... [spoiler=Where to start...]Ctrl + F to find a specific card(s). On Archlord Kristya, Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning, Dark Armed Dragon, Judgment Dragon, and Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon Or in the short version... On the banned Boss Monsters. I feel each of these cards do too much for too little. Cards like BLS, JD, and DAD are topdeck wins waiting to happen, tend to take very little skill to use, and just harm the game far more than any good they can do for it. Kristya brings the game to a total halt and basically never dies, and really just makes an incredible uphill battle for its opponent. Redrum is a walking reborn on a 2800 body that's stupidly easy to get out. Not much else to say. On Grapha, Dragon Lord of Dark World, Snoww, Unlight of Dark World, Master Hyperion, The Agent of Mystery - Earth, and High Priestess of Prophecy Let me cover the other three bosses real quick... Grapha and Hyperion are both a touchy subject, and I wasn't incredibly inclined to hit Hyperion, but still felt I should. Grapha is a particularly degenerate card, in that it is a basically invincible 3K beater. That's all good and fine, but more than 1 of that seems like overkill. If the deck can't survive with 1 Grapha, oh well. Hyperion's just free removal ala DAD, and still feels rather unfair in both design and applications. Same for High Priestess. Now see, I feel awkward about these two mainly because of how I hit their searchers. I hit Snoww to 1, along with Grapha, while I left Earth where she was. I just feel that Snoww is a much more powerful card than Earth, in the long run. Yes, it's technically harder to set off, but it also gives you more payoff. I just feel that Dark Worlds deserved the harder hits. While they are not, and have not been, tier, that's only due to the side deck, and they should still be hit. On Exodia the Forbidden One, Morphing Jar, Blaze Fenix, the Burning Bombardment Bird, Number 6: Chronomaly Atlando, Card Destruction, Chain Strike, Final Countdown, and Chain Material Alt wins and FTK cards. Not much else to say beyond that, as each of them have decks that abuse them to no end for those purposes. They see little to no use outside of those decks, and thus banned. On Gem-Knight Fusion and Gishki Aquamirror This is a really, really touchy subject for me. It's one of the times when I'm letting my bias seep in because I think it is truly for the game's best, but I could easily be wrong. Gishki Aquamirror supports a deck that constantly pumps out FTK/OTKs. All but 1 and a half of their bosses are designed in a manner that supports this goal. They aren't an interactive decktype, they aren't benefiting the game, they just punish players in the same way the last set of cards I discussed did. It's essentially solitaire. Gem-Knight Fusion is a touchy principle ban. It works on the same principle as Gishki Aquamirror, and in a similar fashion for its deck. The difference is that it promotes swarm into OTK as opposed to not giving the opponent time to respond. While it's a slightly painful choice, I couldn't ban the mirror in good conscience without banning G-K Fusion as well. On Blackwing - Kalut the Moon Shadow, Bujin Relic - Habakiri, and Honest Cards that basically guarantee your monster will survive a battle, and are essentially free removal in a very dishonest form. They add a negative dimension to the game in a terrible mindgame. You have to add 1400 to every Blackwing and you have to double any Beast-Warrior Bujin, not to mention Honest basically going loliwinthisbattle. Dishonest cards that cause unhealthy mindgames have to go. On Card Destruction, Gateway of the Six, Infernity Launcher, Limiter Removal, Rekindling, Royal Tribute, Spellbook of Judgment, Return from the Different Dimension, and Ultimate Offering Card Destruction's back, yes. These are cards with too much power packed into one card, which fall into different decktypes. They are basically win conditions if they go off and make the game a slippery slope. For one card. They just give far too much for far too little, and have to go. While Limiter Removal isn't exactly the same, it's an OTK-or-Die card that needs to go, as well. On Atlantean Dragoons, Mermail Abysslinde, and Abyss-sphere While I'm not sure this is how to hit Mermails, this was the way to hit the most gross design in it. Dragoons is a search for any sea serpent with the activation cost of being used as a cost... Not very fair, now is it? Abyss-sphere is a free summon from the deck with no actual drawback unless it gets Trap Stunned. Yes, it blows up what it SSs eventually, but it's still a huge beater from the deck that can be used as such. I feel this is a greater problem than Linde, hence why Linde is simply limited. Linde is rather unfair design, in that it summons a beater for a laughable cost, but it's not AS gross an issue as Abyss-sphere. On Herald of Perfection A card that just shuts down the game for little to no payoff. In the right circumstances, it can singlehandedly make and break games. Even with Kristya banned, I don't feel this is a card that should exist in a healthy game, given that multichainability is a thing. On Elemental HERO Stratos and E - Emergency Call I'd rather the deck have another RotA than an abusable, endless searcher that can be triggered far too easily, especially considering that Shining exists. On Brotherhood of the Fire Fist - Chicken, Brotherhood of the Fire Fist - Bear, Enthusiastic Beast Wolfberk, and Fire Formation - Tenki Chicken does far too much for one card, and is the single biggest problem with Fire Fists as a whole. Bear and Tenki hits are consistency hits. It lets the Bear engine live without being TOO live and lowers the consistency of Fire Fists as a whole. Wolfberk's a free, searchable Xyz that rewards you for simply playing a deck. More than 1 of it seems like too much. On Inzektor Dragonfly and Inzektor Hornet I'd rather not kill Dragonfly in addition to Hornet, but... after seeing the stupid FTK stuff Dragonfly enables, I cannot leave it alive. Hornet's also grossly unfair design that doesn't need to exist, considering after the first use, it's totally free removal for simply following the deck's goal. On Karakuri Shogun mdl 00 "Burei" and Karakuri Steel Shogun mdl 00X "Bureido" The two cannot both exist without Karakuri being OTK based. The choice was let them keep a more generic position changer or to let them keep the smallest bit of Draw Power, and I felt the draw power was more beneficial to the deck. On Shooting Quasar Dragon, T.G. Hyper Librarian, and Formula Synchron Shooting Quasar Dragon is Winmoar Overkill Dragon. It does nothing but promote OTKing and overextending, both of which are bad for the game. The fact that it promotes inconsitent deckbuilding also makes me cringe. I don't feel a card like this should exist even with Librarian dead. Speaking of Librarian, the card is way too good. Anything Synchrocentric can plus off of it way too much, especially for a 2400 ATK Level 5. It's too easy to get out, and too good once it's out. It also keeps formula at 1, so... Formula to 3 seems perfectly fine when we don't have to worry about Quasar and Librarian running around. It's a transference of advantage and that's perfectly fine if it's not going to snowball quickly. On Constellar Ptolemy M7, Constellar Sombre, Evilswarm Kerykeion, Evilswarm Bahamut, and Evilswarm Ophion Ptolemy supports loops that are detrimental to the game because they end in FTKs and OTKs. Even if you kill the stuff that abuses him, he will still wait to abuse those cards as they crop up with time. He has an effect that is too powerful for the cost, and has to go. Sombre and Kerykeion are similar to G-K Fusion and Gishki Aquamirror, but both are more prominent issues. They're like Wolfberks on crack for a silly cost. Bahamut and Ophion are both powerful bosses for the deck. Ophion really needs a limit to stop the absolute abuse of multiples and thus encouraging smarter Kerykeion plays. Bahamut is limited for similar reasons. On Gaia Dragon, the Thunder Charger Banned on the principle that removing costs in exchange for a 2600 piercer is a horrible idea. Also banned for what it's proven to do. On Lavalval Chain It's too versatile and powerful in multiple decks. I don't have a lot to say here, but the applications it puts forward should be kinda a clue. On Number 16: Shock Master Singlehandedly sealing off a third of the game? It seals games and can make OTKing far too easy to do. Even if it's less practical to make, it shouldn't exist. On Blaster, Dragon Ruler of Infernos, Redox, Dragon Ruler of Boulders, Tempest, Dragon Ruler of Storms, and Tidal, Dragon Ruler of Waterfalls I feel that if they're limited, they're one-of cards for their respective attributes that COULD enrich the game. I'm not sold on that, though, so if for some reason I come to believe they are problematic even at 1, they will be banned. On Infernity Archfiend I know I banned Launcher, but this is pretty much THE definition of a snowball card and allowing multiples of this is a horrible idea. The fact that it searches CARDS puts it over the top and makes me want to ban it, but not 100% sure I should. On Madolche Hootcake and Madolche Queen Tiaramisu I could've banned either of them, but I decided not to. NEVERMIND, BANNED QUEENY. One Hootcake seems like all that should ever be allowed because of how powerful a free summon from the deck is, especially when it sets off Messengelato. Tiaramisu's an absolutely ridiculous card, and it seems like a bad idea to leave it alive. A 2700 spin 2 that restocks your pieces, God forbid you factor in Ticket and Chateau, is something that shouldn't happen. Considered hitting Magileine, Chateau, and Messengelato, but felt none of them were issues. Ticket will be covered later. On Nimble Angler It's a free Rank 2 that rewards you for simply using it as a cost/milling it, more often than not. With Lemuria and a Frog/Dragon engine, it's potent, and with me slowing the game down just a bit, I don't want something THAT potent to be free. 1 is sufficiently usable and abusable, so hopefully this is a nice spot. On Rescue Rabbit, Sangan, and Tour Guide from the Underworld While the three don't exactly go together, they do have associations, so I felt I should discuss them together. Rescue Rabbit is a design intended to make vanillas better, more playable. However, it goes over and beyond this. At 1, the only times it would be used are for the intended use and Evilswarms, otherwise you're compromising consistency for a subpar engine. I personally feel that Sangan shouldn't have been banned, and that it was fine at 1. I feel that you should kill off TGU before you kill him off. This is probably some bias on my part, but hey, nothing's totally unbiased, right? Tour Guide, like Rabbit, will always serve another purpose unless she's limited. At 1, I doubt she'll be used as a Rank 3 engine, and she will belong to the Fiend decks her design supports, not everything and its mother. On Thunder Sea Horse, Mahunder, and Pahunder I hit Sea Horse to 1 because of how well it does its job- That is to say far too well. You trade in 1 turn and you set up for the whole game, basically. Mahunder and Pahunder were hit to further compromise consistency and to decrease the ability to OTK due to having multiples of them. I didn't feel right hitting AAA, so it's untouched. On Gear Gigant X, Hieratic Dragon King of Atum, and King of the Feral Imps I feel all 3 of these cards deserve to be limited based on what they do. While Atum is different, the core is the same. They all are searches that serve as powerful engines/engine additions to decks, and while power is not inherently a bad thing it is something that a lot of decks can use in the case of King. Atum and X are hits to Dragons and Gadgets, respectively. On Black Whirlwind, Madolche Ticket, and Wind-Up Factory While slightly different in play, these are all basically the same type of card. As such, I decided to hit Ticket and Factory based on Whirlwind, and to not move Whirlwind down, though I may change this decision. On Blackwing - Gale the Whirlwind A walking Shrink isn't half as good as people make it out to be, and if BW get any support it should be this, not more Whirlwind or more Kalut. On Bujin - Yamato Considering I killed Habakiri, I didn't want to limit this outright, though it might deserve to be limited. It's a very potent card in what it does, and I put it to 2 to hit consistency, alogn with the fewer Tenkis. On Book of Moon and Forbidden Lance While I feel there should be 3 Book and 1 Lance, I am not totally certain. Decided to 2 and 2 to be safe, as more than 4 seems overkill. On Thunder King Rai Oh and Pot of Duality A pair of well designed cards that don't do too much or too little. They should never have been hit. [/spoiler] I tried to be as unbiased as possible towards what decks I hit and how, though my view of how the game should be obviously seeped in some. As with anything, it cannot be totally unbiased, so please bear with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I really feel like there should be an Invoker and a big eye hit hit here somewhere. Also, with even just one Hootcake and one tiaramisu, Madolche can do some crazy shit. I'd feel better if you banned one or the other. Also, can you explain to me why you put bear at 1 and tenki at 2? I'm guessing that its because the latter keeps the tenki engine alive, but that therein speeds the game up when you said yourself that you wanted it to slow down. Just looking for clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I really feel like there should be an Invoker and a big eye hit hit here somewhere. Also, with even just one Hootcake and one tiaramisu, Madolche can do some crazy shit. I'd feel better if you banned one or the other. Also, can you explain to me why you put bear at 1 and tenki at 2? I'm guessing that its because the latter keeps the tenki engine alive, but that therein speeds the game up when you said yourself that you wanted it to slow down. Just looking for clarification. But there are so many awful, awful Madolche cards what the hell do i ban I don't mind the Tenki engine existing, in and of itself. Keeping it alive seems better than outright killing it. If I leave Bear at 3, it increases the consistency of Fists alone. If I put Tenki at 1, it murders its usage with an engine, which is a great selling point for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Banning Tiaramisu but keeping hootcake alive would shift their focus quite a bit, from summoning tiara pronto and then OTK to a spammy Xyz deck. Banning hootcake would make madols lose some steam but keep their overall goal the same. It's your call, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Guess I'll ban Tiaramisu and leave Hoot limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 [quote name="Panic Black" post="6206838" timestamp="1369276387"]Guess I'll ban Tiaramisu and leave Hoot limited.[/quote] Yeah, I think that that was the best choice. Also, ban on Avarice pl0x? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Eh... I wanna hit it, but I'm trying not to snowball out of control. Banned and Limited are already rather large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 To be fair, Black, Gem-Knights deliberately made their entire Archetype(or at least a decent portion of it) around getting pluses off their Fusion, as otherwise it would just a be a -2/-3/-whatever, and kill the user faster then he should have.I mean, you could even Limit it and force people to run more Turtles, which would make them more reliant on the later in order to start making their moves, and could potentially devolve the deck into a form of inconsistency.Plus, you could always ban Burial from a Different Dimension as well, just for good measure, as you already have Return take out of the picture.I dunno', I'm not saying you should Limit GK-Fusion, but it, more or less, kills their whole deck.Gishkis can still toolbox themselves, they just need to use their other Ritual Spells for their shenanigans, which in turn, are also still searchable by their whole archetype. Compared to Fusion, which just has a 2000 DEF FLIP-effect monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 Speaking on awful mindgames, I thought I'd see "Gorz" banned. Also, what do you think about the possibility of more than 1 "Scapegoats"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 I'm guessing Skill Drain is also well-designed, despite giving the player who uses it an unfair advantage over the player who is playing against it? Though the list is nice, I'm surprised that you (of all people) left Gorz untouched, as Sleepy mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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