The Degenerate Thread~

[Sleepy]

So I've been hearing this for a while. It is widely acknowledged that many cards in Yugioh are degenerate. Now a certain member around here contrasts with some of my previous views. Phrases are along the lines of:

"Final Countdown is fun and doesn't top. Why should it be hit?"

"Card Destruction should come back so that Dark Worlds have a win condition" (EDIT: yeah this one was a joke, but still felt it could be added).

"Skill Drain is fine, and the fault is yours for not being able to adapt to it, or for running a deck that loses to it"

"Perfect Herald is fine because it needs a deck completely revolving around it and for you to achieve getting enough fodder. Besides, it only forces you to adapt so you are bad if you can't."

 

Now those are not exact quotes, but regardless of if you back-up or disproof any of the above, it made me think of this thread.

The way I've been considering it all is that Yugioh has a lot of layers of degenerate that extend to infinity. If you kill Dragon Rulers' main problems, you'll have Fire Fists, Spellbooks, etc. right behind them. Keep killing cards and you'll get back to Blackwings, Lightsworns, and TeleDAD. Keep killing cards and you might still have a couple "OMG broken" choices running around.

 

So this is more a question than a discussion thread.

 

What's your favorite/ideal level of power, if any, in this game?

At the end of the day, is it actually that there's no way to possibly make a card game without badly designed cards? Or is it that many of these are actually fine in some way?

Is having god-level cards restricted to awful plays something excusable?

Is there a specific definition of "good design" you carry around?

 

Are there other potential questions I might be missing? 

Discuss/comment/critique/etc.

[Lonk]

The game is like an oinion:  Start peeling away at the layers and it will start to stink.  Keep peeling away at the layers and you'll encounter an 18-inch big meat that flies around ejaculating at everything.  You don't want to peel away at too many layers of the gamestate or else everyone gets raped.

[Sora1499]

Brokenness in Yugioh is like a continuum. There exists an ideal level of power creep, and moving away from it in either direction (more tame or more busted) makes the game less fun.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

If you didn't realise I was actually kidding when I said Card Destruction could come back. I've made it clear multiple times that I believe DWs had 2 cards that let them go off and make insane pushes a lot easier and those were Reborn and Card Des. Those are both now gone and it makes me sad because I absolutely adore Dark Worlds and now I have to try and win fairly with them. No one in their right mind should believe it should come back.

About the actual topic: It's not a thing that only yugioh does, just most games use a different word because the cards at their disposal are actually balanced fairly well. The word of choice is obviously "powerful". Power is something that is required in a TCG because doing powerful things is fun and without it the game would get stale. Yugioh takes powerful things to an extreme with its power creep and leads to card designs like the Dragon Rulers that really shouldn't even be made. I personally liked the power level of Inzektors/Rabbit/Wind-Ups as a format, and I'd like to see yugioh return to that level, which it very well could do with the current Jan 2014 or if not then the April version of the list.

The reason "degenerate" and "broken" get thrown around so much in the community is two-fold. First of all, the community tends to be a younger crowd to something like Magic: The Gathering, with most players in the competitive community sitting around the 15 year mark, I'd guess. If not, then their maturity levels are roughly around that age point anyway. This is important because their general attitude tends to be of an egotistical kind with no real control. They want to be able to do unfair things without their opponent being able to, and they don't want to adapt to what anyone else does - This is why cards like Final Countdown and Skill Drain tend to be hated on a lot. The other reason is because of the power creep of the game, constantly forcing players to have to change to an even quicker format than the last, or at the very least a more hostile one. The game in itself forces the designers to go through a degeneracy cycle, for lack of a better term. New sets need to sell so they need stronger cards, but then the former problems of the format get hit by the banlist but nothing new coming out actually changes so it's still too powerful.

[Sleepy]

If you didn't realise I was actually kidding when I said Card Destruction could come back. I've made it clear multiple times that I believe DWs had 2 cards that let them go off and make insane pushes a lot easier and those were Reborn and Card Des. Those are both now gone and it makes me sad because I absolutely adore Dark Worlds and now I have to try and win fairly with them. No one in their right mind should believe it should come back.

About the actual topic: It's not a thing that only yugioh does, just most games use a different word because the cards at their disposal are actually balanced fairly well. The word of choice is obviously "powerful". Power is something that is required in a TCG because doing powerful things is fun and without it the game would get stale. Yugioh takes powerful things to an extreme with its power creep and leads to card designs like the Dragon Rulers that really shouldn't even be made. I personally liked the power level of Inzektors/Rabbit/Wind-Ups as a format, and I'd like to see yugioh return to that level, which it very well could do with the current Jan 2014 or if not then the April version of the list.

The reason "degenerate" and "broken" get thrown around so much in the community is two-fold. First of all, the community tends to be a younger crowd to something like Magic: The Gathering, with most players in the competitive community sitting around the 15 year mark, I'd guess. If not, then their maturity levels are roughly around that age point anyway. This is important because their general attitude tends to be of an egotistical kind with no real control. They want to be able to do unfair things without their opponent being able to, and they don't want to adapt to what anyone else does - This is why cards like Final Countdown and Skill Drain tend to be hated on a lot. The other reason is because of the power creep of the game, constantly forcing players to have to change to an even quicker format than the last, or at the very least a more hostile one. The game in itself forces the designers to go through a degeneracy cycle, for lack of a better term. New sets need to sell so they need stronger cards, but then the former problems of the format get hit by the banlist but nothing new coming out actually changes so it's still too powerful.

 

 

Just pointing this out: My intention is not to mock your opinions at the OP, so I'm disregarding agreeing/disagreeing with any of them, otherwise it'd be a lockable spam thread pointing the finger at someone, and that's bad.

No, I'm actually interested in what posts this is gonna bring out.

 

How does power-creep work in MTG btw?

I understand that there are many formats, but they try to balance what the game is like in that format where only the latest X expansions are legal, so if a card(s) brought up the power of the game, they'll actually print weaker cards on the latest one so that the format can go back once it the older one slides out of it.

But I assume there's still a little bit of power increasing over time at a very small rate overall, right?

[Toffee.]

What's your favorite/ideal level of power, if any, in this game?

When the Battle Phase actually exists for what it is meant to be. Simple as that.

At the end of the day, is it actually that there's no way to possibly make a card game without badly designed cards?

This question is rhetorical.
Part of the whole "badly designed" part, is either because they are trying to force a metagame out of something OR it's based purely on experimentation. The former; Fuck no. The later; This is ok, provided, nothing becomes over-the-top ridiculous.

Or is it that many of these are actually fine in some way?

Dark Hole would be fine if people actually valued it for what it is, and not just "LEL I NUKE UR FIELD GG"

Is having god-level cards restricted to awful plays something excusable?

This one is also rhetorical.
Better cards don't exactly make anyone better, because, you know, it's not like it's rocket science to play a card that just says "Destroy all cards the opponent controls". since really, any yahoo can play Raigeki-Duster. Doesn't mean any of that is skill-oriented, let alone, requires thought, when one is playing something that is literally pure winmoar and nothing else.

Is there a specific definition of "good design" you carry around?

As much as I would love to use Scraps as an example, since just about every card in that Archetype is a +0, that one isn't perfect either due to the fact it's reliant on like 1-3 specific moves.
Although...
Aside from Bear and Wolfbark, 4-Axis Fire Fists are pretty solid, design wise, since a lot of their antics tend to revolve around the Battle Phase and/or otherwise being able to run over other monsters easily, from all the ATK boosting they have, which in turn, also lets them make more plays. Because at the same time, they also have various means of acquiring said cards, which overall proves to be both efficient and effective, while not being totally game breaking.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Just pointing this out: My intention is not to mock your opinions at the OP, so I'm disregarding agreeing/disagreeing with any of them, otherwise it'd be a lockable spam thread pointing the finger at someone, and that's bad.
No, I'm actually interested in what posts this is gonna bring out.
 
How does power-creep work in MTG btw?
I understand that there are many formats, but they try to balance what the game is like in that format where only the latest X expansions are legal, so if a card(s) brought up the power of the game, they'll actually print weaker cards on the latest one so that the format can go back once it the older one slides out of it.
But I assume there's still a little bit of power increasing over time at a very small rate overall, right?

I know you're not trying to mock any opinions, I was just stating that I wasn't serious with the Card Destruction comment I made.

MTG doesn't have power creep, really. It might have some slight complexity creep but even then that's more of a thing that fluctuates, just some mechanics are more complex or difficult to grasp than others, recently these have been very, very scarce.

It does depend on which format of MTG is being played, to answer the latter part. Standard is the main format, and consists only of the last 2 years worth of cards. This allows WotC to manipulate the format into something fair and diverse, which it currently is. Standard is the format with zero real power creep. As blocks are released in sets of 3, the power level in standard does increase for each new one, however it rarely ever reaches a high power level and while there are plenty of powerful things to always be doing in standard, there's nothing broken and recently there hasn't been any one best deck; Not since Delver, and even then there were plenty of other decks to be playing. A format's only ever been horribly polarised back in the Caw-Blade era of 2010, and they haven't made any true mistakes since. Legacy (the format that encompasses all sets, bar the most broken of cards being on the banlist) is closest to yugioh's power level, and is commonly referred to as the turn 2 kill format. This isn't exactly accurate, but there are a significant number of decks that can goldfish a turn 2 victory, however it has plenty of safety valves to prevent this, in cards like Force of Will (basically a "free" counterspell, to stop something insane). It is also the least affected by any power creep since the power level is already so high, it's also an incredibly interactive and intricate format that really does reward the better player more often than not, with so many decisions that can all affect the outcome of the game and incredibly complex combos. Modern is a format that includes all sets that have passed through standard since 2004. Being a recent format, the banlist is still being worked out over time, and Wizards is taking a Konami-esque approach to it by hitting anything that starts dominating the format. That's my personal gripe with it in general since it prevents the format from really growing, and hurts the diversity of the format. There are plenty of different deck choices but they're actually just ridiculously similar in how they play which causes the format to become stale fast, imo. It's also the format most affected by power creep. Cheap spells that are good in standard tend to be more abusable in Modern and lead the format to constantly being polarised.

Hope that explained enough. If I didn't explain something well enough or if you want me to explain something else, like a comparison between it and yugioh just say so.

[Delibirb]

I think a good card is something that can work exceptionally well in a number of decks, that doesn't create an unusual game-state, and has an optional but efficient first-choice deck that can make the most of it, even if it isnt a key card. Zenmaines is the first thing that pops into my head, though these may not be all the criteria I think of for a "good" card. There are a lot of decks, too many to even want to attempt counting, that can make Zenmaines, so he is open for all to use. He has a good defensive effect that doesnt create a new game, but most importantly Wind-Ups can make the best of use of him due to their support being able to work on him.

[Toffee.]

I think a good card is something that can work exceptionally well in a number of decks, that doesn't create an unusual game-state, and has an optional but efficient first-choice deck that can make the most of it, even if it isnt a key card.

Not to seem negative, but your logic is a little backwards.
You can't have a well rounded card that is also tied to an Archetype, to which, can be cranked up to 11 in said deck.
Because then it looses the whole "well rounded" aspect you wanted to achieve, and makes said card in question rather pigeonholed, on the grounds that it will ultimately only end up in decks X and Y, but not Z.
Book of Moon is more along the lines of what your looking for, because it offers so much usage, is splashable, and an effective card in general. But, you know, that card is just a little too good BECAUSE it does all that.

[Delibirb]

Not to seem negative, but your logic is a little backwards.
You can't have a well rounded card that is also tied to an Archetype, to which, can be cranked up to 11 in said deck.
Because then it looses the whole "well rounded" aspect you wanted to achieve, and makes said card in question rather pigeonholed, on the grounds that it will ultimately only end up in decks X and Y, but not Z.
Book of Moon is more along the lines of what your looking for, because it offers so much usage, is splashable, and an effective card in general. But, you know, that card is just a little too good BECAUSE it does all that.

I didnt necessarily say it needed to be archetypal, just that there is a deck that can use it to full advantage. Zenmaines was just the first thing that came to mind, and I'm not sure why. But say, Bottomless Trap Hole is another decent example. It can be splashed into literally any and every deck, but Traptrix can use it with more consistency.

[Toffee.]

Bottomless Trap Hole is another decent-

No, it's not.

Also why do Wind-Ups need Zenmain when they can explode easier without it?

[Just Crouton]

Yugioh is not a game based around complex thought and skill like MtG and wasn't intended to be when introduced in the manga (if the over-simplicity of the duels in the various anime and manga weren't evidence enough.) It's a game based around little kids throwing megabosses on the field and showing off before the other kids jump them and steal their cards.

 

Konami began making these kind of broken cards so kids don't have to be burdened with things like thinking out their plays or working hard to get out the megabosses, and most importantly, to be able to beat better players. The problem is that instead of busting the existing archetypes, they only push new ones that people who aren't only concerned with running tier 0 each format don't care about.

 

Konami should break the crap out of every archetype as they did with 6Sams.

 

People want Blackwings? Give them a Rekindling that targets BWs in the Extra Deck.

 

People want Lightsworns? Give them a Charge of the Light Brigade that searches Judgment D and mills 4.

 

People want Glads? Give them a monster that tags in five Glads (or something.)

 

People want Blue-Eyes? Give them a new card that Specials 3 BEWDs from anywhere and Trap Stuns for the turn.

 

People want Tech Genus? Give them cards that makes multiple Delta Accel Synchros a 2-card combo.

 

People want Machinas? Give them a baby Dragon Ruler that Specials Fortress from the deck.

 

People want Koa'kis (never heard of anyone who does)? Give them a...a...wait, Konami just gave them something.

 

With all the broken archetypes rampant, we'll (in theory) have a (somewhat) even and diverse playing field that also satisfies Konami's need to sell cards that require little thought to play.

 

Let's face it. The game will never be "repaired," and Konami doesn't want to do so because they need to sell to kids who watch the series, and want it easy, so it only makes sense to push on with the blatantly overpowered cards. But, Konami should make everything nuts instead of just selling [intended top archetype of the format x], [intended other major archetype of the format y], [intended other major archetype of the format z] like they do now. Pick 2-4 few old archetypes, break them to tier 1+ with a new assortment of power cards, and sell a new archetype as the primary tier 0.

 

It may not be good for the game (and, it isn't,) but anybody who thinks Konami would do ever try to seriously repair the game with a 100+ card banlist or reset it altogether is insane, especially since the broken cards that Konami sells now are evidently making them so much money.

[Toffee.]

Yugioh is not a game based around complex thought and skill like MtG and wasn't intended to be when introduced in the manga (if the over-simplicity of the duels in the various anime and manga weren't evidence enough.) It's a game based around little kids throwing megabosses on the field and showing off before the other kids jump them and steal their cards.

Define "can beat better players", when said players in question are just as bad as said little kids are, when it comes to playing this game, on the grounds that they too just mindlessly toss out cards and don't even second guess any action they just took?

I mean, yes, player A opened with 5x Raigeki. Doesn't mean he/she is any good, since in that regard, it's the players cards that do all the work, and not so much the actual player him/herself.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Define "can beat better players", when said players in question are just as bad as said little kids are, when it comes to playing this game, on the grounds that they too just mindlessly toss out cards and don't even second guess any action they just took?

I mean, yes, player A opened with 5x Raigeki. Doesn't mean he/she is any good, since in that regard, it's the players cards that do all the work, and not so much the actual player him/herself.

Are you just oblivious to the fact that people who can think exist?

I understand that you'd assume that type of person would be rare given the game they're playing, but just what the actual fuck are you on about?

[Just Crouton]

Define "can beat better players", when said players in question are just as bad as said little kids are, when it comes to playing this game, on the grounds that they too just mindlessly toss out cards and don't even second guess any action they just took?

I mean, yes, player A opened with 5x Raigeki. Doesn't mean he/she is any good, since in that regard, it's the players cards that do all the work, and not so much the actual player him/herself.

_____

 

I think you're missing the point. Konami began making the "mindlessly throw this card on the field" cards because, from what I've gathered, they realized there was too much skill in the game at the time (Goat Format,) and were afraid kids would be turned off by it like they might be with Magic. That, and from what I've heard, Konami also listened to complaints from Pojo about how they can never beat good players. These "skilless" power cards exist to help the target audience beat good players by limiting the amount of thought and need to understand the consequence of misplays. Sure, bad players play these cards too, but it was worth the sacrifice because Konami still makes them and a lot of people clearly want them.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

_____
 
I think you're missing the point. Konami began making the "mindlessly throw this card on the field" cards because, from what I've gathered, they realized there was too much skill in the game at the time (Goat Format,) and were afraid kids would be turned off by it like they might be with Magic. That, and what I've heard, Konami listened to complaints from Pojo about how they can never beat good players. These "skilless" power cards exist to help the target audience beat good players by limiting the amount of thought and need to understand the consequence of misplays. Sure, bad players play these cards too, but it was worth the sacrifice because Konami still makes them and a lot of people clearly want them.

Mindless cards already existed in Goat format, thanks to IOC.

They didn't actually make any more mindless cards for quite a while after that.

Also the term "mindless" is horrendous since it's not true at all.

[Just Crouton]

Mindless cards already existed in Goat format, thanks to IOC.

They didn't actually make any more mindless cards for quite a while after that.

Also the term "mindless" is horrendous since it's not true at all.

____

 

It is. My use of the term was more in response to Armz' post about "just mindlessly toss out cards."

 

And, correct. Such cards did exist in Goat format.

[goddamnit names are a pain]

People want Tech Genus? Give them cards that makes multiple Delta Accel Synchros a 2-card combo.

I am ok with this.

 

 

What's your favorite/ideal level of power, if any, in this game?

Power that you fight with. Enough of calling something a deck when it summons a completely unrelated monster and hides behind it enough to win.

 

At the end of the day, is it actually that there's no way to possibly make a card game without badly designed cards? Or is it that many of these are actually fine in some way?

It's all trial and error, really. When you hit 4000+ cards, your bound to screw up somewhere. Something combos with something in a way you didn't expect. Not really a bad card, just a cheap combo. You can make it without standalone jerks, but the game might become too simple. So many cards I would just like to toss out a window though.

 

 

Is having god-level cards restricted to awful plays something excusable?

Most of the time, it should be excusable anyway. The amount needed to go into said god-card 9/10 could also be spent killing the opponent. It's a mutual trade off often.

 

 

Is there a specific definition of "good design" you carry around?

Cards that either help you or hurt the opponent, not both. And if they hurt the opponent, they find a way to hurt you.

Also, cards that encourage an actual DUEL. With monsters fighting and everything. You know, how the game should be. Also, cards that still let your opponent play he duel. Maxx C, for example, helps you, but does not cancel out everything the opponent does. All of these Traps and Spells that discourage interaction tick me off. "Hey, that card you played. No" is a horrible concept.

[Toffee.]

Are you just oblivious to the fact that people who can think exist?

I understand that you'd assume that type of person would be rare given the game they're playing, but just what the actual fuck are you on about?

Actually I was just curious about Mach's choice of words, but he cleared it up in his following post.
More or less I was just saying that better cards don't exactly make the player, since even if it's some yahoo playing the current top deck, and he doesn't have the understanding of it- Hes prone to loosing because of his lack of basic fundamentals on the best ways to get the most out of what hes playing, and not so much that hes playing it cuz' it "wins games".

[Zauls]

I've found that one of the main problems with this game is that the design and mechanics of the game allow for broken/degenerate cards to just get out of control. Examples of this are that Special Summons are infinite, Quick-play Spells are a thing (I really think they are too good) and that a lot of mechanics are too heavily exploited. Anyone remember when the banished/removed from play zone actually meant that the card was gone completely for the rest of the game? Now it is just another Graveyard. 

A friend of mine has just created his own TCG and me and him have been testing it a bit. It is a really well balanced game with very little possibility to be broken because there are a set number of moves you can make in a turn and each card has a number on it. I won't explain the mechanic, but basically, the higher the number, the better. This means that cards with good effects will be balanced out with a low number and less powerful cards with have high numbers.

This is basically one of the biggest problems with yugioh. Along with the fact that Konami seems to have forgotten a couple of things eg. high level monsters should be hard to summon and that Field Spells should affect both players.

[Toffee.]

Anyone remember when the banished/removed from play zone actually meant that the card was gone completely for the rest of the game? Now it is just another Graveyard.

Technically, this might have been on purpose.
Since if you think about it, if no card/effect had any means of recovering Banished cards, then Banish becomes the dominant form of removal, and anything less then that is rendered moot.
Banishing cards, not from an advantage standpoint, but as a means of removing cards from the field, is still really effective even today. But at the same time we have a handful of cards that appear every now and then that can make use of said zone, so it doesn't end up as such a crippling thing.

Also as far as Quick-Play spells go-
Shrink should be the best one of that kind. Since in it's purest form, that's the kind of stuff you would expect them to be, given the fact they are almost always intended for Damage Step shenanigans and other things like that.
At least, if we wanted to look at it from a realistic standpoint, and not so much as a means of having cards that can counter other cards, that aren't the set-in-stone-everyone-looses-unless-they-open-with-them Warning, Bottomless, and Compulsory.

[Slinky]

I only have 1 issue with degenerate cards. Basically, if the card says "Your opponent just can't do sh!t while its in play" is just something that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

Examples of this are:

 

Fabled Unicor (negate EVERYTHING YO, and with Fableds adjusting their hand size as second-nature, theres really not much you CAN do, if anything)

Bujins in general (Oh, I'll just negate everything you play)

Perfect Herald + Djinn/Kristya (oh,you can't special summon, or activate anything, because I'll just negate it yo)

 

Although not exactly "degenerate", I really hate cards that are designed to be generic field nukers. such as Heavy Storm, Dark Hole, Black Rose, etc. Playing 1 card to instantly turn the tide to your favor, is not something that should even exist in the first place. 

[goddamnit names are a pain]

Although not exactly "degenerate", I really hate cards that are designed to be generic field nukers. such as Heavy Storm, Dark Hole, Black Rose, etc. Playing 1 card to instantly turn the tide to your favor, is not something that should even exist in the first place. 

In her defense, Black Rose Dragon takes some effort to pull off, and most likely stops you from doing anything the rest of the turn. Somewhat. Dat Beelze doe.

 

I don't terribly mind the "can't do crap" short of Ophion and Emptiness. I hate the "what you just said, no" cards. 
Like Solemn, Bottomless, and Forbiddens. And Dragon Knight Felgrand. Just sick.

[Blake]

I only have 1 issue with degenerate cards. Basically, if the card says "Your opponent just can't do sh!t while its in play" is just something that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Examples of this are:

Fabled Unicor (negate EVERYTHING YO, and with Fableds adjusting their hand size as second-nature, theres really not much you CAN do, if anything)

If you'd said Ragin, I'd agree, but Unicore is not degenerate at all.

Yes, it negates everything, but only if you think the ganestate through efficiently and effectively . Fableds don't control their hand quite as well as you think they do, though I won't deny they can control a good bit, and especially not during the opponent's turn. And Unicore Control's an awful deck.

It rewards the person who made it for thinking out the gamestate properly, and only punishes the opponent if they don't think it through properly. Unicore hardly ever does anything outside of an OTK turn (Not Unicore's fault, more Ragin, Librarian, Ancient Sacred Wyvern) or when the opponent doesn't read (it sadly happens a lot).

It's only efficient if you think it completely through before you make it or depend on the opponent's stupidity. It encourages a gamestate that's more thought provoking and doesn't just hurrdurr negate all because it's not that hard to outplay 9/10.

I'd sooner call LaDD degenerate than Unicore, and he's just a solid boss monster.

[Toffee.]

I'd sooner call LaDD degenerate than Unicore, and he's just a solid boss monster.

LaDD is rather enigmatic in that regard.
No, I'm not saying hes broken, as far this topic goes, but rather... He encourages both conservation and aggressiveness at the same time, since while it's not exactly rocket science to play around LaDD, it can be rather difficult given the right scenario. Add to it, LaDD's drawback also leads into it's revival effect, to which, is also interesting in it's own right because of the fact it first blows up your own field and then revives something else of yours, so that's always a relatively amusing gimmick, on a monster of that magnitude, because it also depends on what you did, field presence wise, since when LaDD is destroyed, you don't exactly want it to kill off your other stuff.