Yu-Gi-Oh! Card Game (how I think it should be; just a quick thinking)

[Lasaro Ginjou]

As time goes by it feels for me that Yu-Gi-Oh just loses the point. So, I gave it a little thought and I think that the game should be a bit different. This post by get a little long so I will divide the parts in Spoiler windows.
Attributes and Types[spoiler=Show theory]
Attributes
There are DARK, DIVINE, EARTH, FIRE, LIGHT, WATER and WIND. But why not LIGHTNING or THUNDER? They use LIGHT instead in many cards but LIGHT is supposed to be the counterpart of DARK. Not part of the regular elements. So, THUNDER would be nice. It would be original, too.
Types
I think, they really lost the mark with this. I mean why so many? Why have pyro-type if you have Fire attribute? Why aqua if Water? Why rock if Earth?
For me the types should be as follows. The green coloured are the changed or new:
Aquatic = Fish, Sea Serpent (everything that lives in the sea in one type)
Beast (I think this one is fine)
Cyborg (cybernetic organism) = There are monsters like that. Some take the animal type other machine. Mix up.
Dinosaur
Dragon
Elemental = Aqua, Pyro, Rock, Thunder (the Attribute would show what element they are.)
Fairy
Fiend
Flying or Volant = Winged Beast (i'm sure one word is better than many. And it is simpler)
God = Creator God (Why "creator"? I'm sure simply "God" is clear enough.)
Hybrid = Beast-Warrior (It shows that the monster is a mix of two. It covers everything. Mermaids for example are not fish but Hybrids.)
Insect
Machine
Plant
Reptile
Spellcaster
Warrior

Notes

• If a monster has Divine Attribute there is not need for Divine-Type as well . Just normal types would do.
• Psychic, depending on artwork, go to either Spellcaster or Cybor
• Wyrm to Dragon
• Zombie to Fiend

[/spoiler]
Normal Monsters
[spoiler=Show theory]
Normal Monsters are, for me, the ones with the most mix up. It is like the create an artwork, the add Attribute and Type based on what it looks like and then they just put the level and ATK/DEF like there is no connection.
I think there should be at least a connection between Level and ATK/DEF.
Basically, for each level there should be a total sum between ATK and DEF. For example:
Level 1 = 1000. The sum of the ATK and DEF of any level 1 will always be 1000.
Level 2 = 1500. The same. (ATK/DEF 1200 or less)
Level 3 = 2000. The same. (ATK/DEF 1500 or less)
Level 4 = 2500. The same. (ATK/DEF 2000 or less)
Level 5 = 3500. The same. (ATK/DEF 2300 or less)
Level 6 = 4000. The same. (ATK 2500 or less) (DEF 2800 or less)
Level 7 = 5000. The same. (ATK 2800 or less) (DEF 3000 or less)
Level 8 = 5500. The same. (ATK/DEF 3000 or less)
 
Spell cards that increase level will also boost ATK and DEF by 200 per level... or something.
[/spoiler]
Effect Monsters
[spoiler=Show theory]
There should be something similar with effect monster as with normal monsters (see above, Normal Monsters) with one exception. Because, effect monsters have their effects they should have lower totals. For example, based on the example of Normal Monsters, the points should be:
Level 1 = 500. The sum of the ATK and DEF of any level 1 will always be 500.
Level 2 = 1000. The same. (ATK/DEF 1000 or less)
Level 3 = 1500. The same. (ATK/DEF 1500 or less)
Level 4 = 2000. The same. (ATK/DEF 2000 or less)
Level 5 = 3000. The same. (ATK/DEF 2100 or less)
Level 6 = 3500. The same. (ATK/DEF 2300 or less)
Level 7 = 4500. The same. (ATK/DEF 2500 or less)
Level 8 = 5000. The same. (ATK/DEF 2700 or less)
And then we go beyond that:
Level 9 = 5500. The same. (ATK/DEF 3500 or less)
Level 10 = 6000. The same. (ATK/DEF 4000 or less)
Level 11 = 7000. The same. (ATK/DEF 4500 or less)
Level 12 = 8000. The same. (ATK/DEF 5000 or less)
 
Another exception is that the points of effect monsters can be ? instead of a total. Depending on their effect.
[/spoiler]
Ritual Monsters
The level and power ration will be based on the Normal and Effect Monsters respectively. They should be placed in Extra Deck. Using Ritual Cards I accept. But the monsters that are used for the ritual should be the same Attribute.
 
Fusion Monsters
The level and power ratio will be based on the Normal and Effect Monsters respectively. No use of polymerization. As long as both Fusion Materials are ON THE FIELD you can Fusion Summon.
 
Synchro Monsters
The level and power ratio will be based on the Normal and Effect Monsters respectively. No use of Tuners. But the monsters that are used for the synchro summon should be the same Type and their total levels exactly the same as the Sychron Monsters.
 
Xyz Monsters
These are the only ones that I can't think of changing anything of. The level and power ratio will be based on the Normal and Effect Monsters respectively of course, but appart from that... nothing. They are fine.
 
Pendulum Monsters
Yeah, right. I am not going to say anything about them because I don't even want them in the games.


 

So this is more or less how I think the game should be.
Let me know if you agree or not.
If not, what do you not agree about?
What would YOU want to be different?

[Blake]

The "point" of YGO is that it's broken.

All of the ED mechanic points are terrible. You rip the value out of them and what seperates and defines them, while also worsening the design of at least two of them. Some contact fusions are fine, but that's not what the mechanic as a whole should be.

[Lasaro Ginjou]

The "point" of YGO is that it's broken.

All of the ED mechanic points are terrible. You rip the value out of them and what seperates and defines them, while also worsening the design of at least two of them. Some contact fusions are fine, but that's not what the mechanic as a whole should be.

Could you explain a bit more? You think all the Level and ATK/DEF connections I suggested are wrong? This was simply an example to give an idea.

[Blake]

Well, it goes like this:

Rituals are the worst designed. They require a spell, a main deck monster, AND fodder. It's a minimum 3-card investment, in some form or fashion, though this does get subverted. Even with Manju, Senju, Sonic Bird, it tends to be a 3-card investment, unless you're playing, like, relinquished. And this means their power level has to be higher to worth it. At that point, they're either shit or too unfair, at least for their time (Demise) or in general (the eternal prescience of Gishkills). Nekroz' form of consistency is just the proof in the pudding that they really can't be handled well.

Pendulums are a terrible mechanic... But a pretty cool game design choice. It's not a fair mechanic, but most used of it are as support. With the exception of Qli and Igknights, pendulums are actually fairly fun to use, though they do inherently show their flaws. In P-Pal, all scales are "monsters waiting to be summoned", thanks to Wizard. In D/D/D, scales are just way more versatile spell cards. While these do showcase their players' styles, they also expose some underlying flaws of the mechanic, especially in the latter case. I actually wouldn't call Pendulums hopeless, they just need help to get on track.

Xyz are an okay idea that went horribly wrong. Xyz are just way, way too generic. 2x4 is so laughably easy that it covers many, many decks, even dexk's you wouldn't think it would. Even with limits, the potential Key Beetle debacle-to-be shows you how easy themed Xyz are to shit out, and that's just one example. The core power level of Xyz was set too high, considering Leviair in set 1 and Laggia (and Zenmaines and Dolkka TCG-side) in set 2, and cards like Tour Guide ushered it in. This mechanic could have been fine if they kept them weaker and/or more reasonably restricted, but they were never that, even at the very core of the mechanic.

Fusions require a similar setup to rituals... But the notable facet is that you don't need an otherwise unsummonable card as part of your setup (well, sometimes, but you know what I mean). Fusion is actually comparable to Xyz with how it's evolved, and I still think it's one of the better mechanics, from core intent until now. The core intent needed work, because specific monsters and poly was a lot to pay, but some of them (Flame Swordsman in the eaaaarly game) rewarded you for them correctly. The present intent may be a bit too generic, but the mechanic still requires the correct input. Like, Shaddoll as a whole, while power creep factors in, are a fairly well designed fusion archetype. Hound, Nephe-Fusion, Dragon, Squa, Beast, Core, and Hedge are all fine cards. Falco and the supports went awry, but if you built from the ground up with those I listed and a weaker Shaddoll Fusion, then it would actually be right as rain. Oh, and no super poly.

Fusion has a lot of potential to reward you the right amount, where Xyz reward you too much. This, too, shows in Shaddolls, as all of your bosses are passive... Except Construct. And she's the only one that really rewards you beyond just enough. Oh, and Wendigi rewards you way too little, but that's a dropped ball in the mediocre set known as SECE.

Synchro is comparable to ritual... So this does mean inherent inconsistencies with the mechanic. Tuners. You have to devote space in your deck to monsters that initiate a synchro summon, then you have to assemble them on the board. And get an exact level. And tbh, though a bit powercreepy at first (I'd blame E-Tele and Plague more than the Synchros themselves)... Once they balanced out what they were doing with them, most of them reward you just right. They're almost like 2-tribute monsters, they just happen to come from the ED and have more specific conditions. Even if you just randomly decide to designs synchro, the value it should be able to give you is much easier to understand than the other mechanics make it. It's intuitive.

It also introduced laddering. While laddering can be too much, it does introduce an interesting idea into the gamestate, and rewards you for using your resources to build into a boss, usually.

It's a mechanic that relies on the power of tuners, which means it will have inconsistencies. However, given that tuners are monsters and not dead spells... It makes it easier to play with them, though you likely run more tuners than you would ritual spells (shaddolls are an exception). It's a little slows down less consistent, in theory, but should the ED mechanics be super consistent anyways? I think the mix is just fine, you just have to accept that tuners come with some inconsistencies and have to have a certain power level.

explanation of the mechanics

Furthermore, there's the concept of Normal Monsters.

In general, Normal Monsters should be few. They are inherently worse as a design on the basis that they are JUST a beatstick, and don't add any depth to the gamestate.

They should be used to determine a power threshold, but not much else. Cards like Mythic Husk Dragon and Phantom Gryphon being released in consecutive sets actually put me off a bit, because it doesn't add a lot to the game. It adds a decent target for Rabbit/AN UNEXPECTED GUY... that's about it. Anything else could have been executed better by giving it more reasonable stats and an effect to give it an edge.

If the normal monster is in an archetype or is a pendulum, there is more argument for/against it. Level 5+ Vanilla Pendulums are questionable, due to Summoner's Art, but otherwise there's more tie-in. Names are an incredibly important part of design, which is why Evilswarm Heliotrope is better than Mythic Husk Dragon in almost every way, with the exception of Masked Chameleon. Even then, eh, there are better ways to use Masked Chameleon.

Rabbit is an example of trying to improve the deign of Normal Monsters, but it doesn't actually do this. It just makes them cannon fodder with potentially strong swings beforehand. Phantom Gryphon adds more to the game than Mythic Husk Dragon, despite having different niches, because it gives Rabbit a card that simultaneously grants access toa 2K beater, Lightning Chidori, Ice Beast Zerofyne, AND King of the Feral/Masked Chameleon at the same time, as opposed to breaking this up into multiple cards. Husk... is just beating a dead horse, and shows how normal design gets wrong very, very fast.

[Lasaro Ginjou]

I also think that the way it is now Normal Monsters are useless. So many effect monsters have the ability to gain way more ATK/DEF and do even more than just battle at the same time. At least, I would make the Effect Monsters physically weak with their abilities being their main reason for being there and I would give battle power to the Normal. Like effect supporting normal. This would give Normal Monsters a reason to exist and be used.

 

Also, in my idea of the game, at the main post, I made Ritual, Fusion and Synchro easier and at the same time more consistent with decks and archetypes. All of them part of ED and with different Summoning mechanics:

• Ritual: Goes to ED and you need the ritual card, and two monsters of the same Attribute. I am debating on completely leaving rituals out though. But, oh well.
• Fusion: it simply needs the Fusion Materials on the field. No polys.
• Synchro: synchro materials must add up to exact level, and be the same Monster-Type. No Tuners.
• Xyz: As it is.

Generally, I hate colorful decks. Normal, Effect, Spells and Traps. The rest to ED. Simple idea with limitless and exciting uses. Because like that you can have potentially an extra deck that makes use of all four Special Summon based Monster Cards.

[Blake]

I also think that the way it is now Normal Monsters are useless. So many effect monsters have the ability to gain way more ATK/DEF and do even more than just battle at the same time. At least, I would make the Effect Monsters physically weak with their abilities being their main reason for being there and I would give battle power to the Normal. Like effect supporting normal. This would give Normal Monsters a reason to exist and be used.

 

Also, in my idea of the game, at the main post, I made Ritual, Fusion and Synchro easier and at the same time more consistent with decks and archetypes. All of them part of ED and with different Summoning mechanics:

• Ritual: Goes to ED and you need the ritual card, and two monsters of the same Attribute. I am debating on completely leaving rituals out though. But, oh well.
• Fusion: it simply needs the Fusion Materials on the field. No polys.
• Synchro: synchro materials must add up to exact level, and be the same Monster-Type. No Tuners.
• Xyz: As it is.

Generally, I hate colorful decks. Normal, Effect, Spells and Traps. The rest to ED. Simple idea with limitless and exciting uses. Because like that you can have potentially an extra deck that makes use of all four Special Summon based Monster Cards.

Normal Monsters shouldn't especially need a reason to  exist or be used. With the exception of Normal Pendulums, they're generally there for power thresholds, with some exceptions. Giving support to Red-Eyes/Blue-Eyes/DM/Neos is one thing, but they have the NAME. Which I mentioned is a vital aspect.

 

You made the ED arbitrary ass fuck. Removing tuners makes Synchros a worse design, you didn't improve the design of Xyz, you made Fusion worse because you delegated it to being a Xyz knockoff, and Rituals at that point are basically super generic fusion monsters.

 

there are already at least 2 decks that can, in some fashion, make use of all 4 summoning methods.

 

And one of those can ALSO use Pendulums. It's not optimal to do so, but it can be done.

[Lasaro Ginjou]

Normal Monsters shouldn't especially need a reason to  exist or be used. With the exception of Normal Pendulums, they're generally there for power thresholds, with some exceptions. Giving support to Red-Eyes/Blue-Eyes/DM/Neos is one thing, but they have the NAME. Which I mentioned is a vital aspect.
 
You made the ED arbitrary ass f***. Removing tuners makes Synchros a worse design, you didn't improve the design of Xyz, you made Fusion worse because you delegated it to being a Xyz knockoff, and Rituals at that point are basically super generic fusion monsters.
 
there are already at least 2 decks that can, in some fashion, make use of all 4 summoning methods.
 
And one of those can ALSO use Pendulums. It's not optimal to do so, but it can be done.

Well, from my point of view each Cart Type needs just a balanced limitation:

• Xyz are indeed easy to summon but their effects are limited. I think they have a nice balance.
• Fusion monsters need at least three specific cards to summon. At least 2 Fusion Materials, sometimes more, and the polymerization or a similar card. In a Fusion focused deck they are fine, but beyond that they are a pain. So, taking out the Spell card and saying that Fusion Summon can happen with the Fusion Material Monsters ON THE FIELD is a nice balance.
• Synchro, as you said, need us to sacrifice part of the deck to fit Tuners in. If we take the Tuners out of the equation and say that we need monsters of the same type (and maybe same Attribute) and total levels of all of them equal to the Synchro monster I think it solves the problem. Synchro can mean the synchronization of two monsters. Two monsters of the same attribute and type would be able to synchronize just fine.
• Rituals need the spell card and any two monsters. However, if we say that the Ritual Monster remains in Extra Deck, then we need the Ritual Spell card and two monsters of the same Attribute as the ritual monster. I think this would do fine.

These are so all Monster card types can be used easier in many decks. Personally, I have given up on Ritual monsters and I am about to give up Fusion, too.

[VCR_CAT]

[spoiler= Attributes]
I disagree with your idea here, specifically regarding "Thunder" and "Lightning" as attributes. Neither of those "attributes" do something that the other Big 6 already do. In fact, in regards to "Thunder" and "Lightning", those two are so small in what you could do for them that you would not have a significant number of monsters to justify having it as an entire attribute. Consider how many monsters are "Thunder" type, and then squish that into an attribute and compare its size to the rest (excluding Divine because that was made exclusively for the God Cards). There just isn't enough variety in either of those concepts to justify making entire archetypes for them, and even then the desgin themselves can easily fall under the "Light" or "Wind" categories very easily. Your statement regarding "Light" as exclusively a counterpart to "Dark" is purely your own speculation unless you can provide proof of the original intent of the attribute's designs. The main six attributes cover all bases quite nicely and I don't think any changes need to be made here. IF any changes are made, it would just make things too complex.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler= Types]
Aquatic - And then suddenly you have to redesign an entire swath of cards because suddenly so many become incredibly broken with the sudden additional monsters available to their effects. Overall and unnecessary change that actually breaks the game's mechanics a little.

Cyborg - Why do you argue that are there are too many types and then suddenly feel the need to add one that's basically the Machine type? Machine covers this base already; "Cyborg" would just be redundant and wouldn't offer enough variety to justify itself as a type on it's own.

Elemental - You would need to change a lot of type-specific support to specify their attribute, but it wouldn't be that big of a change; but then with this considered this change doesn't really do anything and comes across as unnecessary.
 

Flying - Unnecessary change is unnecessary.

God - "Creator God" is not the official english title since Horahkty has not been released in the TCG, and this is just a rough Japanese translation where, in their culture, the concept of "God" is not the same as our's and this clarification actually is justified. Simply calling the type "God" just comes across like some 13-year-old chose the name because he/she thought it sounded badass and awesome and kewl anyways.

Hybrid - Ummmmmmmm nooooo. Beast-Warrior sounds much better and is a lot more on-point for what the type is. When I think "Hybrid", I think of some gross mutation beast and not at all Tiger Warrior.

The rest of the notes are disregarded because doing such things demand that entire swaths of type-specific support need to be completely retooled and redesigned or else it just completely breaks the game.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler= Normal Monsters]
Believe it or not there are hard ceilings for how high a normal monster's attack can be for what level. The stat rules are not as strict, but Normal Monsters add very little to the game (outside of Pendulums) and practically just there for a few card effects and for collection purposes. A more strict rule for stat/level correlations would be nice, but they already have adequate rules for Vanilla stats; and overall this change wouldn't do anything to affect the game.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler= Effect Monsters]

There can't be a similar thing for Effect Monsters because the monster's effect affects the card's overall value significantly, and a card's stats must reflect such accordingly. Because of this, a hard stat rule/restriction for the effect monsters actually affects how the cards themselves function entirely and some cards would not actually exist because of this. I do not agree with this because a card's stats should correlate with the value that their effect gives, and this is a significant part of card design.

[/spoiler]

 

[spoiler= The Extra Deck]

Placing Ritual Monsters in the Extra Deck basically turns them into Fusion Monsters with a focus on the level of the monsters being tributed rather than what monster is being tributed. This makes the mechanics too similar; and while it would be a nice change to reconsider how Rituals work considering (as Robin points out) Rituals tend to be either too broken or just complete garbage. The complete removal of Tuners and Spells just makes all the summoning mechanics the same, and makes me question how these monsters are even different at all. It's a bad choice design-wise, and white-washing the Extra Deck just makes too many strategies and play styles too similar and kills so much of the variety that people love in this game. Save Rituals, the existing MECHANICS themselves are fine as they are; Xyz's are just a little too good for their ease of summon and splashability; but that's an issue with card design, not in the design of the mechanic of Xyz Summoning itself.
[/spoiler]

 

[spoiler= Pendulum Monsters]
Too bad your word isn't the word of god regarding this game and is just another salty opinion. I, for one, really enjoy Pendulum Summoning. I think the mechanic is a really cool idea and could help make a lot of old decks a lot more playable (on a casual level, of course) and a lot more fun to use. It's a neat idea; Konami just needs to careful to avoid anything ultra broken from happen, but so far nothing has completely broken the game. Heck, Qliphorts were hyped up to be the new broken top-tier deck, but they never were able to top Shaddolls and then Nekroz came along. Qliphorts have only been playing second fiddle for their entirety of their meta presence, and it shows that any complaints of Pendulums regarding the game are purely on a casual standpoint and not on the competitive one. I agree with Robin in that, right now, Pendulums are too focused on EITHER their monster aspect OR their spell aspect (although I really like the idea behind Qliphorts even if I'm not too crazy about the deck), but as Robin said they're not hopeless and Konami can do something really cool with them. I may not be on board with thinking Pendulums are unfair and a bad mechanic; but I'm also started recognizing that as more of a matter of opinion than anything.

I, for one, welcome our new Pendulum Overlords.

[/spoiler]

tl;dr: You're better off making your own card game; and even then, don't quit your day job. Remember that just because you may play a game a lot, does not necessarily mean you know what's best for it.

[Lasaro Ginjou]

[spoiler Attributes]
I disagree with your idea here, specifically regarding "Thunder" and "Lightning" as attributes. Neither of those "attributes" do something that the other Big 6 already do. In fact, in regards to "Thunder" and "Lightning", those two are so small in what you could do for them that you would not have a significant number of monsters to justify having it as an entire attribute. Consider how many monsters are "Thunder" type, and then squish that into an attribute and compare its size to the rest (excluding Divine because that was made exclusively for the God Cards). There just isn't enough variety in either of those concepts to justify making entire archetypes for them, and even then the desgin themselves can easily fall under the "Light" or "Wind" categories very easily. Your statement regarding "Light" as exclusively a counterpart to "Dark" is purely your own speculation unless you can provide proof of the original intent of the attribute's designs. The main six attributes cover all bases quite nicely and I don't think any changes need to be made here. IF any changes are made, it would just make things too complex.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler Types]
Aquatic - And then suddenly you have to redesign an entire swath of cards because suddenly so many become incredibly broken with the sudden additional monsters available to their effects. Overall and unnecessary change that actually breaks the game's mechanics a little.
Cyborg - Why do you argue that are there are too many types and then suddenly feel the need to add one that's basically the Machine type? Machine covers this base already; "Cyborg" would just be redundant and wouldn't offer enough variety to justify itself as a type on it's own.
Elemental - You would need to change a lot of type-specific support to specify their attribute, but it wouldn't be that big of a change; but then with this considered this change doesn't really do anything and comes across as unnecessary.
 
Flying - Unnecessary change is unnecessary.

God - "Creator God" is not the official english title since Horahkty has not been released in the TCG, and this is just a rough Japanese translation where, in their culture, the concept of "God" is not the same as our's and this clarification actually is justified. Simply calling the type "God" just comes across like some 13-year-old chose the name because he/she thought it sounded badass and awesome and kewl anyways.

Hybrid - Ummmmmmmm nooooo. Beast-Warrior sounds much better and is a lot more on-point for what the type is. When I think "Hybrid", I think of some gross mutation beast and not at all Tiger Warrior.

The rest of the notes are disregarded because doing such things demand that entire swaths of type-specific support need to be completely retooled and redesigned or else it just completely breaks the game.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler Normal Monsters]
Believe it or not there are hard ceilings for how high a normal monster's attack can be for what level. The stat rules are not as strict, but Normal Monsters add very little to the game (outside of Pendulums) and practically just there for a few card effects and for collection purposes. A more strict rule for stat/level correlations would be nice, but they already have adequate rules for Vanilla stats; and overall this change wouldn't do anything to affect the game.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler Effect Monsters]
There can't be a similar thing for Effect Monsters because the monster's effect affects the card's overall value significantly, and a card's stats must reflect such accordingly. Because of this, a hard stat rule/restriction for the effect monsters actually affects how the cards themselves function entirely and some cards would not actually exist because of this. I do not agree with this because a card's stats should correlate with the value that their effect gives, and this is a significant part of card design.
[/spoiler]
 
[spoiler The Extra Deck]
Placing Ritual Monsters in the Extra Deck basically turns them into Fusion Monsters with a focus on the level of the monsters being tributed rather than what monster is being tributed. This makes the mechanics too similar; and while it would be a nice change to reconsider how Rituals work considering (as Robin points out) Rituals tend to be either too broken or just complete garbage. The complete removal of Tuners and Spells just makes all the summoning mechanics the same, and makes me question how these monsters are even different at all. It's a bad choice design-wise, and white-washing the Extra Deck just makes too many strategies and play styles too similar and kills so much of the variety that people love in this game. Save Rituals, the existing MECHANICS themselves are fine as they are; Xyz's are just a little too good for their ease of summon and splashability; but that's an issue with card design, not in the design of the mechanic of Xyz Summoning itself.
[/spoiler]
 
[spoiler Pendulum Monsters]
Too bad your word isn't the word of god regarding this game and is just another salty opinion. I, for one, really enjoy Pendulum Summoning. I think the mechanic is a really cool idea and could help make a lot of old decks a lot more playable (on a casual level, of course) and a lot more fun to use. It's a neat idea; Konami just needs to careful to avoid anything ultra broken from happen, but so far nothing has completely broken the game. Heck, Qliphorts were hyped up to be the new broken top-tier deck, but they never were able to top Shaddolls and then Nekroz came along. Qliphorts have only been playing second fiddle for their entirety of their meta presence, and it shows that any complaints of Pendulums regarding the game are purely on a casual standpoint and not on the competitive one. I agree with Robin in that, right now, Pendulums are too focused on EITHER their monster aspect OR their spell aspect (although I really like the idea behind Qliphorts even if I'm not too crazy about the deck), but as Robin said they're not hopeless and Konami can do something really cool with them. I may not be on board with thinking Pendulums are unfair and a bad mechanic; but I'm also started recognizing that as more of a matter of opinion than anything.

I, for one, welcome our new Pendulum Overlords.
[/spoiler]

tl;dr: You're better off making your own card game; and even then, don't quit your day job. Remember that just because you may play a game a lot, does not necessarily mean you know what's best for it.

You will feel relieved knowing that I am not a game maker. And of course I don't pretend to know the game. After all I am not playing that much anymore. :P

I never said that they have to CHANGE the game. I said that is how it SHOULD HAVE BEEN from the beginning. Changing it now is impossible.

As for the extra deck, I find it a shame to have card types that are not used because they are hard to use. I agree that my opinion is not the best but as I clearly explained it is only a quick thinking. I am not going to spend time making a card game concept when I know that it is not going to come true.

Pendulums are indeed interesting. And create a more dynamic gaming style. However, they break all playing styles made up to this moment and make the games end too quickly. So many combos to summon monsters are now useless. You just need to fill your Deck with Pendulums and you are good. I find it sad.

[VCR_CAT]

Unfortunately, the fact that you both say you don't play much anymore AND the fact that you clearly didn't read what I said regarding the competitive impact of Pendulum Monsters says to me that you don't know what you're talking about in regards to them. The closest Pendulums have gotten to meta is Qliphorts, and as I definitely said, they've been playing second-fiddle to non-pendulum decks the entirety of their time on the tier list, and even now with the recent banlist they're probably going to drop off of it almost entirely. Pendulums have not at all had the impact on the game that you say it has had; but take it from me who has been playing a lot more than you and has seen them in action a lot more. What you said was basically personal speculation presented as fact.

Also, if you're going to make a big post talking about what you think the game should be like, you should probably put more thought into it then.

[Lasaro Ginjou]

Unfortunately, the fact that you both say you don't play much anymore AND the fact that you clearly didn't read what I said regarding the competitive impact of Pendulum Monsters says to me that you don't know what you're talking about in regards to them. The closest Pendulums have gotten to meta is Qliphorts, and as I definitely said, they've been playing second-fiddle to non-pendulum decks the entirety of their time on the tier list, and even now with the recent banlist they're probably going to drop off of it almost entirely. Pendulums have not at all had the impact on the game that you say it has had; but take it from me who has been playing a lot more than you and has seen them in action a lot more. What you said was basically personal speculation presented as fact.

Also, if you're going to make a big post talking about what you think the game should be like, you should probably put more thought into it then.

I never said what I say is fact. It is all what I think. Nothing else. Apologies if I made you misunderstand.

Based on what you say only a couple archetypes can battle against Pendulums. So what? I have to abandon all my favorite deck types so that I won't have to use Pendulums? Sorry, still don't like them.

Let me say it clearly this time. All here is what I think. Nothing more.

[Sleepy]

[spoiler=Attributes and Types]

. Keeping an open mind, it could have gone either way at the beginning and it'd have been fine. Most Thunder and Pyro Types could fit into other Types like Warrior or Beast because of their art, and "Elemental" sounds fair enough to me, to be honest. And I did like the idea to have had Thunder as an Attribute instead, personally. Aqua is the most "fine" IRL because you can't really put an octopus or a clam on a different category.

Of course the game justifies certain cards being different types when you look at in-game support, and the issue is that it doesn't always look too convincing with the art you are looking at (Inzektors look like Warriors to me), but it is still understandable nonetheless.

 

What I think the game actually needs in regards to a new Type, is something where you'd put a non-magical human that isn't a Warrior. When something is not a Fairy/Fiend/Zombie/Spellcaster/other, they usually slap the Warrior tag on it even if it is something like a salesman, a chef, etc. and Warrior is over-supported much like how Dragons are over-drawn, so I'd say that's an actual need. In fact, Warriors are also over-drawn to the point you sometimes see non-Warrior Types that look like Warriors art-wise (going back to my Inzektors example).

Another thing the game COULD have is more than one Type on monsters... I think that'd be cool though it would have been much safer to do from the beginning of the game, now if done it can easily get a sloppy step and break something.... though it is kind of possible.

 

Again, it is also fine as is IRL so not a huge deal. They probably would have still neglected tons of Types and Attributes like they did during the first 3 generations of the the game.

[/spoiler]

 

[spoiler=Normal Monsters and Effect Monsters]

No that is not a good idea. They already had it like that back in the day when Invasion of Chaos was around, and from experience you can't really have too much Effect Monster variety in decks from that. Effect Monsters needed to focus on being on-pair with Normal Monsters and with the Battle Phase as an important health factor of the game: Most of my effect monsters like Sacred Crane and Kaiser Sea Horse mostly existed to be killed by 1800 and 1900 ATK beaters that were the standard, and when the game finally evolved into are more equal environment for both, said Normal Monsters became to weak to run. You really needed to use Penguin Soldier, Cyber Jar, and the such to survive vanilla beaters.

 

Nowadays removal is made in such a way that you virtually could have a any ATK on a beater and as long as you don't OTK, it'll eventually get taken down. Well, at least that's talking on a vacuum environment, because I've had situations where pure beaters matter against powerful decks, like how a Burning Abyss I played against the other day couldn't get past a 2800 ATK beater (pre Crossed Souls build).

 

Now that Xyzs, Pendulums, Synchros, Rituals, and Tribute Summons are all a thing, there is plenty of purpose for Levels as being different calibrating material from one another, and so they have finally grown out of having Level just as a way to re-state that it has bigger stats. I'm fine with the 2100 DEF Level 1 vanillas in the same game as 2000 ATK Level 4 vanillas, to be honest.

 

In my humble opinion, vanillas should be done as little as possible because most wouldn't really even have a purpose if you do too many of them (and we DO have too many of them in the game), but for the ones that WOULD be made if the game started again from scratch, they should have a place that they could fit.

They could be a very good beater that X deck(s) need to use to get over certain things, or they could be very very very fluid monsters that an Effect Monster slot just couldn't quite fit to the same degree, like a very recyclable Tuner that has just the right Type/Attribute/Level, stats, or an ideal recurring wall that the deck happened to bring out more easily than...

Things like that. I'm a big fan of Normal Monsters when they have a great amount of versatility just because of their traits, like how Dragon Ruler times used those random Level 6 FIRE vanillas, or this one time I made a Level 3 vanilla Dragon EARTH Tuner with 1600 ATK during the time Redox was a thing. 

I like that more than when they are nothing but a very big beater, and this is true more now that Pendulum Vanillas exist, so there is one more potential purpose there.

[/spoiler]

 

[spoiler=Fusion Monsters]

You have to think about what you are taking away from the game. Sure Polymerization is potentially a minus play in advantage, but remember that Synchro and Xyz Monsters already cover the ground of Summoning, Summoning, Summoning, and Summoning again in order to end up with a bigger monster. I think it is a good thing that Polymerization allows the game to have a mechanic in which you only really need that one Fusion Summon to end up with a relevant monster in play. Shadolls took advantage of this feature in a very clever way when Winda was introduced. What you are doing here is taking away a unique factor that Fusions have. Pendulum Summon also has this, but Pendulum Summon is an inherent Summon of multiple monsters and not a Summon by effect like Fusions, and that allows card-making in the game to alternate both forms of Special Summons to have pros and cons during a certain meta. No I wouldn't make them not use Poly. Synchros and Xyz often can feel a little bit too easy to make, and so Fusions have a degree of setup needed that feels just right.

 

What I would do about them though wouldn't need rules in the game to be re-set. I'd probably give them a Spell Icon much like how Rituals have their own and go from there.

Then it'd probably be interesting to someday get an archetype of Fusions that gave you the option of Summoning it via Contact or via Poly, and did something different depending on. That'd be cool and I'd hype over it.

[/spoiler]

 

[spoiler=Synchro Monsters]
Actually, I had a similar idea a year or two back, but mine exchanged Tuners for Normal Monsters, and it didn't have all that great of a reception. Though I also ended up play testing it anyways, and it didn't feel all that right. Tuners are good. They also keep the mechanic simple enough to describe, and we never want to make things more complicated than they should be. Saying "Tuner" and slapping it on a broad variety of cards has enough potential as is. If you want a Type/Attribute-depending mechanic, there probably should be a new mechanic for that because Synchros' mechanic is already made and isn't a problem at all.

 

I would have personally made the average power of Synchros much lower than they were during the Synchro era as to not have them outclass the rest of the game as they did during their time, and that would have slowed power-creep and the mechanic was innovative and interesting enough to warrant their use and consumption anyways so Konami didn't need to do it so hard. Still, nowadays all mechanics seem about on pair with each other so I guess there's that.

[/spoiler]

 

[spoiler=Xyz Monsters]
I wouldn't change the mechanic either. Though I've been thinking up about how I could give them a way to Rank-Up/Down in a natural way (rather than RUM Spells), and they are starting to use the stacking mechanic a little more than just the detaching one, hope I see more of that in the future or something more interesting like having what ZeXal couldn't have: Instead of soulless and dull monsters that existed just to be used as overlays and help with swarming, I would have liked to see actual working self-sufficient archetypes with their own personalities and Xyzs whose effects were also partially given by the Materials's effects they had (because they really only ever used detaching and negation... and that got old pretty quickly). That would have even worked better for Utopia in the show because it'd be slightly different every time.

 

but I'm getting off-topic here... Moring on.

[/spoiler]

 

[spoiler=Ritual Monsters]

I left this one to the near-end because it is one of if not THE hardest mechanic to balance out, but I have to say the suggestion of putting Ritual Monsters in the Extra Deck has popped up many times in this site. At some point the way things were made me agree with the possibility, but nowadays I wouldn't. It is technically different from Fusions in the way that Levels are involved, but since IRL generic Fusions already use the Type/Attribute restrictions, what you just created here is inferior Fusions.

Why did you change the way Fusions work if you are making another mechanic be just like Fusions were but with a little more of a restriction? Remember yourself that you are working under the umbrella that these changes are in a game that starts from scratch with these on, so you don't need to worry about IRL Fusions having the materials they already have IRL, but you somehow did when you made this one.

 

Rituals can honestly be made with the way they are IRL, but Konami gave them the qualities of a tier 1 archetype intentionally and now it looks like they can't be balanced out without breaking.

 

No, they just need their Ritual Spells to dub as other effect that don't involve Ritual Summoning. The way they've been done lately is a start, but it is also too focused on a side. If you don't use them for a Ritual Summon, they are still useless IRL, when in reality, in order to incorporate them in the game to a more general level they need to be more generic, then they could half the typical self-banishing from the Graveyard reserved for the Ritual Summon purposes. This would greatly lighten part of the cost that Ritual Summoning represents in the game.

 

As for the Ritual Monsters, 1/3 of the existing RItuals in the game are old school vanillas with outclassed stats. The other 2/3s of Rituals are WATER archetypes (Gishkis and Nekroz). Of course Ritual Monsters won't be a thing like that. Of course archetype-specific hand-traps are not gonna be used elsewhere. The places that currently are filled by hand traps like Veiler, Maxx C, Honest or Yuki Usagi would still be staples during their respective primes if they had been Rituals. Even Gorz would have probably been more balanced just getting discarded to make the Token without giving an extra 2700 ATK beater. I mean I'm not saying we need Ritual versions of those cards now, but that kind of thing would have greatly lightened the load of the Monster side of the mechanic.

 

Another potential thing I once suggested was the idea of Ritual Monsters being Summonable by any other ways just like any vanilla could, but that's a debatable idea on itself, which I like but can be discussed further.

[/spoiler]

 

[spoiler=Pendulums Monsters]

I'd personally still include it in a re-vamp of the game. The swarming potential it can have mid to late game is a power-related issue, and that's the one thing I think could be worked and tweaked in some way, but whatever it is done, the ability to Summon more than 1 monster at a time is a unique feature for inherent Summon in the game and that should find its way to stay as a feature.

 

However, the rest of the mechanic is very interesting and worth trying to utilize.

 

-The Scales part makes it so only a certain range can be brought out, and it is a fun factor to take into account. It really does make a difference when you have to build a deck that works with them, and you can't just Summon a bunch of Gods from your hand and OTK mindlessly.

 

-The Pendulum Zones are a great way to make Continuous Spell Effects. Think about it this way: You only have 2 of them, and you don't want to fill them up with the same card, so you are guaranteed a safe balancing out feature right there. If you do end up with wanting 2 of it on your Scales, you pretty much give up Pendulum Summoning because there's no range that way.

 

-Spells can often be searched out/recycled/etc resorting to RotA clones or archetype caps, but these can be compatible via their monster stats, and that is something that could work greatly if they implement it to a wide enough variety of decks in the game, even the ones that don't use Pendulum Summon.

 

 

-Pendulum Summon starts off as a -2 inherently (later on you can factor in effects paying for themselves in the Scales), so if you are not searching out your cards at the speed of light like with Qliphs or Igknights, this can be pretty interesting and well paced.

 

 

So Pendulums have many interesting things to offer. 

[/spoiler]

[Lasaro Ginjou]

Changing anything is impossible at this point. But apart from all others, at least Rituals should be in Extra Deck. And apart from the cards that involve the user getting a Ritual Monster from their Deck, it wouldn't affect the game as it is now. It would only make an abandoned monster card type interesting again.

That is at least what I think.

[goodfusion]

Rituals should not go in the Extra Deck in my opinion, it simply beats the point of them and makes them too similar to Fusions to be a different monster type.

I personally think it would be possible to leave all summoning mechanics as is and have them all be balanced, fun and interesting, but this would require you to pretty much remake all the cards from scratch, allowing you have each mechanic in front of you and them all to start from the same point, instead of introducing a new one every few years.

[VCR_CAT]

You misunderstood what I was saying about Pendulums. I was only giving examples, not saying those are the ONLY decks to be able to stop Qlips. Heck, the fact that Qlips are the only meta-relevant Pendulum deck and even then they kinda suck (especially now) says a lot about the impact of the summoning mechanic on the meta-game. Right now, your reaction is a gross over exaggeration of a large misconception regarding the summoning mechanic. I would suggest actually playing against pendulum decks, then if your success against them IS as you suspect; examine if that's due to Pendulum Summoning BEING so grossly imbalanced, or if your skill in the game or deck-building is in question.

[Lasaro Ginjou]

You misunderstood what I was saying about Pendulums. I was only giving examples, not saying those are the ONLY decks to be able to stop Qlips. Heck, the fact that Qlips are the only meta-relevant Pendulum deck and even then they kinda suck (especially now) says a lot about the impact of the summoning mechanic on the meta-game. Right now, your reaction is a gross over exaggeration of a large misconception regarding the summoning mechanic. I would suggest actually playing against pendulum decks, then if your success against them IS as you suspect; examine if that's due to Pendulum Summoning BEING so grossly imbalanced, or if your skill in the game or deck-building is in question.

Could be my skill is in question. But last time I played with the same opponents with no Pendulums involved I did a lot better. In order to do better against them I had to give up my deck and make a new one with lots of special summons and card destroyers. I did win a few times, but I didn't enjoy it. The pre-pendulum gaming was a lot funnier and longer lasting. Not a duel you can win in a couple of turns by either using pendulum effect to summon all your great combos at once, or disable the opponent's pendulums which leaves the opponent open.

 

Don't get me wrong. Pendulums are interesting. I just preferred the long and fun duels instead.

[Sleepy]

The mechanic of Pendulums actually by itself doesn't really speed up the game as much as Qliphs make it out to be.

Qliphs pretty much pay for themselves the turn their Scales are setup, on top of the quick fill on the Extra Deck they'll produce as they take care of your field at the same time.

 

If you look at how vanilla Pendulums play without Heart of the Underdog, that's the closest you can get to seeing how the mechanic flows in a generic way.

First thing you'll notice is that your Scales will start up by you giving up 2 cards from your hand. THEN you'll have a turn 1 in which you'll probably Pendulum Summon a single monster.

You never want to really spend your hand because there are plenty of ways to get rid of the Scales (Exciton Knight, Black Rose, MST, etc), so you want to have a spare Scale in hand or two.

 

Also Pendulums are likely to suffer 2 other threats.

-They'll either be dealt with without going back to the Pendulum Zone (Bottomless, Warning, Karma Cut, Chidori, 101, Castell, etc), further setting you back in your attempt to reach the point of the game where you can bring out 3+ monsters from the Extra Deck in one go.

-You might encounter a monster that your Pendulums by themselves cannot deal with, and you'll be forced to Xyz Summon with them, so they'll stay in the Graveyard after that.

 

One more thing is that you need a ratio of at least 24 monsters out of your 40 card deck for Pendulums to actually Summon consistently in a generic way. You could try to have a more insane number of monsters so you can always swarm but that means floodgates will stop you cold more likely than not.

 

Finally, their Scales aren't always perfect so you won't always be able to Pendulum Summon everything from the Extra Deck unless you are a super consistent archetype like Qliphs.

 

 

This is all obviously minus their potential effects.

[Lasaro Ginjou]

Taking advantage of those "minus" is the way to easily handle them. But that means forming a deck based on those. That is my point. Before, any deck you built, if used properly and is decent in structure can match up to most others. But with Pendulums un the game I feel like my options are limited compared to before.

 

Then again, I do find Pendulums interesting but it just doesn't feel like Yu-Gi-Oh for me now.

 

Anyway, I understand what everyone means. It is different for everyone and many thought that some changes should be done but changed their minds. I mean, after this game came so far, changing it would be impossible. It would not feel the same either. So, no point in HOW IT SHOULD BE. The proper topic would be How to Fix the Game I guess, just like Tinkerer's thread Fixing the game.

 

Thanks to everyone who used their time to give me some so in-depth opinions.

 

Can someone please lock this thread?