Goose Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 But people USE IT as a buzzword is the problem. The difference is between just saying game health and talking about a particular aspect of the game right? Saying that Wavering Eyes is bad for the health of the game is a shitpost but saying it's bad for skill in competitive play isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 I would be all for it if jokes and puns on card names would still be allowed. Those are always fun and harmless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 The difference is between just saying game health and talking about a particular aspect of the game right? Saying that Wavering Eyes is bad for the health of the game is a shitpost but saying it's bad for skill in competitive play isn't.Fair. Also, I'd propose that if you want to make a discussion about some card, you HAVE TO make some input yourself. Like, you can't just post a card and "discuss", to give some foundation for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted July 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Wow, thanks for the support, guys. I'm sure evilfusion will understand and pay attention. I'll get right to PMing him. With regard to the casual/competitive split, I'm not sure that's the road that is best to go down. As I said before, that kind of thing causes both sections to suffer and be less active. I think it's pretty obvious when discussing a card/archetype whether it's casual or competitive, so people should just post with that in mind. If somebody wants to talk about optimising the Scrap archetype or whatever, it's clear they just want to get the best out of what they choose to use and that should be respected, rather than saying "lol Scraps you're not winning anything with that s*** play Nekroz or go home". EDIT: With regard to the buzzwords thing, it should be looked at on a case-by-case basis. If somebody explains properly why they think Wavering Eyes is "badly designed", that's fine, but saying something like "this is cancer, Konami please ban" is not ok and it adds nothing to the discussion. Again, it's obvious to distinguish between the two types of post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Also another thing.This is just personal preference really butAggression. Like, seriously, if I didn't have an IRL friend on this site I would've quit so long ago. When alot of people are swearing at each other, flaming inside their points, it just makes the site look bad and not professional or inviting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 I think the whole idea of game health and card design preposterous. It doesn't lead to anyone and doesn't help anyone. The last thing I want to see is a thread full of people moaning about a card because countering such an opinion is very difficult and there's limited evidence. You'll find actual discussions about card viability and possibilities - the best example I can think of is mine and Zauls' argument over Nephe Shaddoll Fusion which was on the scale of these petty arguments over game health, but much more productive and less dramatic. Although the argument was not properly resolved I imagine a new person looking at that thread would at least be fully aware of the pros and cons of Nephe Shaddoll Fusion. Once again, sorry if my posts in here are badly composed and too short but I'm on a phone. edit: Zai, mind changing the full quote to a -snip-? It makes it harder to scroll down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 I think the whole idea of game health and card design preposterous. It doesn't lead to anyone and doesn't help anyone. The last thing I want to see is a thread full of people moaning about a card because countering such an opinion is very difficult and there's limited evidence. You'll find actual discussions about card viability and possibilities - the best example I can think of is mine and Zauls' argument over Nephe Shaddoll Fusion which was on the scale of these petty arguments over game health, but much more productive and less dramatic. Although the argument was not properly resolved I imagine a new person looking at that thread would at least be fully aware of the pros and cons of Nephe Shaddoll Fusion. Once again, sorry if my posts in here are badly composed and too short but I'm on a phone.Yep. Saying "this card is bad for game health" says crap. Please. Let's leave theory-oh outside. Like that Baboon topic. "Well if we get X and Y this card would be good, discuss this card in that scenario". Bleh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enguin Enguin Enguin Enguin Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Fair. Also, I'd propose that if you want to make a discussion about some card, you HAVE TO make some input yourself. Like, you can't just post a card and "discuss", to give some foundation for discussion. I can say personally that when I go to make a thread here I feel much safer simply posting the card and "Discuss". Not giving an opinion means you can't be criticised or whatever, and just let the thread develop itself without worrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANZAI!!!! Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 I think its honestly way less about the content of discussions in TCG and way more about the way people choose to conduct themselves. I could name plenty of names that engage in flaming repeatedly and regularly, which 9/10 times causes a thread to devolve and be locked. The fact of the matter is that TCG needs to learn some ettiquite, and said ettiquite should be enforced so that threads do not devolve like they regularly do. The section at present is perfectly capable of holding legitimate and healthy discussions (and they do happen) its just the way that a large portion of the resident members choose to act is causing the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Althemia Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Yep. Saying "this card is bad for game health" says crap. Please. Let's leave theory-oh outside. Like that Baboon topic. "Well if we get X and Y this card would be good, discuss this card in that scenario". Bleh. I think this isn't necessarily a bad point of discussion though, on the topic of game health. Sure the cases are rare where it's acceptable, but when they do come about they actually do generate a decent amount of discussion. Personally I think an absolutely fantastic example of a game health form of discussion would be using Royal Magical Library and whether or not it should be around at all with the advent of Chicken Race due to it creating an unfair and overwhelming deck type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 I think this isn't necessarily a bad point of discussion though, on the topic of game health. Sure the cases are rare where it's acceptable, but when they do come about they actually do generate a decent amount of discussion. Personally I think an absolutely fantastic example of a game health form of discussion would be using Royal Magical Library and whether or not it should be around at all with the advent of Chicken Race due to it creating an unfair and overwhelming deck type.But...what does it lead to is my question? We arrive at a conclusion, and in the end, it's still up to Konami. Our discussion about whether it should be around or not leads to nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 From what I can tell the issues almost never have anything to do with people talking about the cards/being salty. The issue is when people attack others, instead of ignoring them. They said something pointless? Sure point out that they didn't give any reasoning for their opinion and ask for explanation.Disagree with what they said? Explain why, don't say anything negative about them personally. But no, I see too often instead people go for the throat in these cases, slinging insults and if they do it clever enough getting reps for it. No amount of changing the section will fix anything if people keep up this attitude. It's gotta stop, or more threads will dissolve into "You're a funking moron" "Screw you" bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 I can say personally that when I go to make a thread here I feel much safer simply posting the card and "Discuss". Not giving an opinion means you can't be criticised or whatever, and just let the thread develop itself without worrying.Isn't that a catch 22? Since if the topic is just card X and "Discuss", then you aren't exactly posting a topic, but rather leaving it in place to begin with, which undermines what This topic is wanting to establish, because by making a seemingly empty OP, then you aren't actually wanting to discuss the card in the first place, which boils down to it being a useless topic/why bother making it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Crouton Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Wow, thanks for the support, guys. I'm sure evilfusion will understand and pay attention. I'll get right to PMing him. With regard to the casual/competitive split, I'm not sure that's the road that is best to go down. As I said before, that kind of thing causes both sections to suffer and be less active. I think it's pretty obvious when discussing a card/archetype whether it's casual or competitive, so people should just post with that in mind. If somebody wants to talk about optimising the Scrap archetype or whatever, it's clear they just want to get the best out of what they choose to use and that should be respected, rather than saying "lol Scraps you're not winning anything with that s*** play Nekroz or go home". EDIT: With regard to the buzzwords thing, it should be looked at on a case-by-case basis. If somebody explains properly why they think Wavering Eyes is "badly designed", that's fine, but saying something like "this is cancer, Konami please ban" is not ok and it adds nothing to the discussion. Again, it's obvious to distinguish between the two types of post. Just so people will be clear, what about tagging threads with "[CASUAL]" and "[COMPETITIVE]" so people know what standard to discuss the topic card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Isn't that a catch 22? Since if the topic is just card X and "Discuss", then you aren't exactly posting a topic, but rather leaving it in place to begin with, which undermines what This topic is wanting to establish, because by making a seemingly empty OP, then you aren't actually wanting to discuss the card in the first place, which boils down to it being a useless topic/why bother making it?Exactly. If you have nothing to say about the card in question, why bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enguin Enguin Enguin Enguin Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Isn't that a catch 22? Since if the topic is just card X and "Discuss", then you aren't exactly posting a topic, but rather leaving it in place to begin with, which undermines what This topic is wanting to establish, because by making a seemingly empty OP, then you aren't actually wanting to discuss the card in the first place, which boils down to it being a useless topic/why bother making it? I'm posting a card, which is itself the topic and requires no input from me to justify itself. So no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mshends Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Well I do agree that there are lots of unnecessary drama that took place in this section. I'm a fairly new members in here (only been here for 7/6 months) and I already witnessed so many bullshit in this forums, and most of them took place here. The 'toxic' talk does scare new comer away, heck the reason I stayed in this forums is due to it having a decent Arc-V thread. For me personally this place is worse than Pojo. Tbh I don't think this section will ever change, it will probably remains like this. Mods can't really change the attitude some people have in this forums after all, it is a very difficult problem to tackle. (And I doubt people will change their attitude in here...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enguin Enguin Enguin Enguin Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Exactly. If you have nothing to say about the card in question, why bother? Because of the kind of attitude of people within the section towards opinions they don't agree with or otherwise do not like, which makes it feel like a risk to say anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Althemia Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 But...what does it lead to is my question? We arrive at a conclusion, and in the end, it's still up to Konami. Our discussion about whether it should be around or not leads to nothing. Yet it still promotes discussion, no? It brings up points on why it may or may not be dangerous enough to allow to exist due to certain other things existing. It's informative to all people involved and allows for different points of view to be circulated, which allows for people to learn. Keep in mind that my ideal scenario is when you take game health LITERALLY as something that is damaging the game, not in the form of being toxic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 We are a forum partly dedicated to card design so it makes sense to discuss card design Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Because of the kind of attitude of people within the section towards opinions they don't agree with or otherwise do not like, which makes it feel like a risk to say anything.Is this really the case? I know people jump on opinions about game health etc like a fly on sheet, but I was under the impression discussions about cards' merits and downfalls tended to be civil. Am I just not paying enough attention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Talking about design in YGO is like the most redundant thing ever. Yu-Gi-Oh is not fun because it's well designed (because it's not), it's fun because it's insane. Not that talking about design is inherently a bad thing, but especially in this section, it's super buzzwordy and people use it as an argument for its usage in a competitive environment. Those are two different things entirely, and the constant mixing between the two realms leads to, like, a good third of the arguments I keep hearing about here. I do think that game health is perfectly acceptable to talk about. It has direct correlation to the competitive scene after all. but annnnyywaaaayy nice call man. An effort to keep the flaming down is great, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Yet it still promotes discussion, no? It brings up points on why it may or may not be dangerous enough to allow to exist due to certain other things existing. It's informative to all people involved and allows for different points of view to be circulated, which allows for people to learn. Keep in mind that my ideal scenario is when you take game health LITERALLY as something that is damaging the game, not in the form of being toxic.I mean, alright, I can get behind that I guess. So basically what I wish was to be done in this section:Ban the use of buzzwords like "toxic", "cancer", "bad design" etc.Make the OP provide some input about the card in question That for sure. Dunno what else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 We are a forum partly dedicated to card design so it makes sense to discuss card designThat's a different section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Oh and if it weren't clear my post refers to both sides of the argument in most cases. Just because one side is correct doesn't mean it's okay to be insulting/mocking when you make your points. Flaming is called that because it's inflammatory. The tone/word choice is one that makes someone defensive or belittles them, and stokes the flames. That recent thread was full of it on both sides. I think that's a very important point to make so I'm saying it. Sorry if it's slightly off the current topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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