f*** it. This thread has needed to happen for a long time.

[CLG Klavier]

That's a different section.

ninja'd

[BANZAI!!!!]

Is this really the case? I know people jump on opinions about game health etc like a fly on s***, but I was under the impression discussions about cards' merits and downfalls tended to be civil. Am I just not paying enough attention?

Pretty much, yes, you aren't paying enough attention. Flames are slung all the time in TCG. I could almost make another drinking game out of it.

[ihop]

Pretty much, yes, you aren't paying enough attention. Flames are slung all the time in TCG. I could almost make another drinking game out of it.

Can you give me some examples of where people have been flamed etc. during discussion over how good cards are/how to use them?

[Just Crouton]

Because of the kind of attitude of people within the section towards opinions they don't agree with or otherwise do not like, which makes it feel like a risk to say anything.

 

If you're too afraid to promote any form of actual discussion in the opening post, then you really shouldn't make the topic at all.

 

Opening posts should begin the discussion, not tell people to discuss something.

[Spinny]

I feel like what me, cowcow and mshends said kinda got steamrolled by this onslaught of design stuff and whatnot. But I think cowcows point is the most relevant. If someone does use a buzzword, it isn't gonna kill the thread. What kills the thread is how people overreact to "bullshit" because they think they are entitled to.

[Goose]

That's a different section.

 

Sorry you clearly didn't understand my comment.  Our website's hook is that we have a card maker.  Card design is a large part of what we as a whole do.  It makes a lot of sense to me that we would carry some of that over into this section of the website.

 

Hopefully that's easier to understand.

[BANZAI!!!!]

Can you give me some examples of where people have been flamed etc. during discussion over how good cards are/how to use them?

Were I not on mobile right now i could provide links, but sadly doing so on my smartphone is far too much of a hassle. Someone else can do that before i'll be able to i'm sure.

[CLG Klavier]

I feel like what me, cowcow and mshends said kinda got steamrolled by this onslaught of design stuff and whatnot. But I think cowcows point is the most relevant. If someone does use a buzzword, it isn't gonna kill the thread. What kills the thread is how people overreact to "bullshit" because they think they are entitled to.

But buzzwords are provoking. It's like saying "We should allow everyone to wear guns outside at any time, it's people who overreact to them". Buzzwords kill any kind of healthy discussion.

[ihop]

Sorry you clearly didn't understand my comment. Our website's hook is that we have a card maker. Card design is a large part of what we as a whole do. It makes a lot of sense to me that we would carry some of that over into this section of the website.

 

Hopefully that's easier to understand.

I understand, and I agree that it's a natural thing for people who design their own cards to be more into card design, but that doesn't make it any more productive.

[Zauls]

OK, so my opinion on the whole card design discussion thing is that if the OP wants to discuss the design of the card they posted a topic about and they state that clearly, then it's fine. Sometimes talking about card design is helpful to gain understanding of what makes a card what it is. I'm actually working on a secret little custom card project myself (despite never posting in CC these days) and it has opened my eyes to card design and interaction and the impact it has.

 

I suppose this just furthers the argument of enforcing that the OP must specify what they want to discuss about a certain card when they post the topic.

[evilfusion]

I suspect the only way I'll be able to address the various points brought up here by both the OP and the other members is if it was broken up into smaller, more manageable bits for me to digest and respond to.

 

At this time, my mindset is not ideal for tackling that (mostly because I'll try to do all of them simultaneously while more info and input is being added at a significantly faster rate).

[Spinny]

But buzzwords are provoking. It's like saying "We should allow everyone to wear guns outside at any time, it's people who overreact to them". Buzzwords kill any kind of healthy discussion.

1 person saying a buzzword does not provoke me to swear at them. So no. And replying to someone that doesn't realise that they aren't the best things to say isn't going to go well, e.g. what happened to blackbeartic.

[CLG Klavier]

1 person saying a buzzword does not provoke me to swear at them. So no. And replying to someone that doesn't realise that they aren't the best things to say isn't going to go well, e.g. what happened to blackbeartic.

But buzzwords don't bring anything worthwile into the topic. They should be treated like spam is IMO.

[Lonk]

If you want my opinion on how we can cut down on flaming, I think proper designations of tags should be used when making a topic.

 

For example, when one wishes to talk about a card in a serious setting, one should have to put the [Competitive] Tag on the thread title.  If one wishes to talk about a card in a casual setting, one should have to put the [Casual] Tag on the thread title.  Properly designating Tags will help set boundaries as to what should be discussed and what shouldn't.  It's something small and it may even be looked at with laughter, but I can say with the utmost confidence that making these two tags mandatory for when discussing cards will cut down on flaming and make this forum better.

[CLG Klavier]

If you want my opinion on how we can cut down on flaming, I think proper designations of tags should be used when making a topic.

 

For example, when one wishes to talk about a card in a serious setting, one should have to put the [Competitive] Tag on the thread title.  If one wishes to talk about a card in a casual setting, one should have to put the [Casual] Tag on the thread title.  Properly designating Tags will help set boundaries as to what should be discussed and what shouldn't.  It's something small and it may even be looked at with laughter, but I can say with the utmost confidence that making these two tags mandatory for when discussing cards will cut down on flaming and make this forum better.

Also this.

[Kazooie]

But buzzwords are provoking. It's like saying "We should allow everyone to wear guns outside at any time, it's people who overreact to them". Buzzwords kill any kind of healthy discussion.

 

This is the only post I'm going to make in this topic, since I don't post here in TCG enough to have a strong opinion, on the rest of the stuff.

 

If all it takes is someone saying a buzzword to cause you and everyone else to immediately stop all discussion, then that sounds like an issue with the reaction then with the cause.

 

The gun comparison is just silly, there is a huge difference between firearms in public, and someone discussing a topic you don't care about, and if the response is such a massive overreaction, then the issue is less the trigger and more how you all react to it.

 

I'll agree that design doesn't matter when you want to talk about the impact, but acting like design has no place in discussions ever is... Kinda silly.

[宇佐見 蓮子@C94]

Like CowCow said, the issue doesn't necessarily lie in buzzwords and stuff like that, it's the way people react to that, and subsequently, the way people react to those reactions. That's how flame wars begin in the first place, people losing their cool and start to fling insults at each other instead of resolving things calmly and civilly.

 

If you don't go around insulting, it won't turn into a flame war.

If you don't go around making posts that can be taken as insulting, it won't turn into a flame war.

Conversely, if you don't agree with something, dispute their point without turning it into an insult.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is grow the funk up.

[Spinny]

But buzzwords don't bring anything worthwile into the topic. They should be treated like spam is IMO.

Valid point. They should be. Just pls no more replying to them because you think they have pre marinated themselves in buzzwords so you can put them in the oven. It snowballs with swear words and insults that get no where. So, in all, they should be notified that those words aren't appropriate so they can learn and also be ignored so no more spam happens.

[Blake]

I'd like to point out a flaw with th competitive/casual thing. It's sound in theory, but the issue is that people will use this as a banner to hide behind my improving or being optimized.

 

Being casual and being terrible aren't the same things. Hell, Ben KeiTK isn't in the same league as, say, Fluffal. Casual is really diverse.

 

While it simply implies not involved in the metagame, the fact is that you'd have to spell out that casual doesn't mean running bad decks and stickin to it. You can improve in casual play just as much as competitive, bar side decking.

[Zauls]

I'd like to point out a flaw with th competitive/casual thing. It's sound in theory, but the issue is that people will use this as a banner to hide behind my improving or being optimized.

 

Being casual and being terrible aren't the same things. Hell, Ben KeiTK isn't in the same league as, say, Fluffal. Casual is really diverse.

 

While it simply implies not involved in the metagame, the fact is that you'd have to spell out that casual doesn't mean running bad decks and stickin to it. You can improve in casual play just as much as competitive, bar side decking.

 

This is an excellent point. I don't think the idea of tags is even necessary. If you're discussing the Fluffal archetype, you're not going to be discussing how you can optimise it's Nekroz matchup or anything, you're going to be discussing the best way to build a well-functioning deck in it's own right. That much should be obvious when somebody makes a topic about the Fluffal archetype. Tags are unnecessary and would only cause further confusion.

[Just Crouton]

I'd like to point out a flaw with th competitive/casual thing. It's sound in theory, but the issue is that people will use this as a banner to hide behind my improving or being optimized.

 

Being casual and being terrible aren't the same things. Hell, Ben KeiTK isn't in the same league as, say, Fluffal. Casual is really diverse.

 

While it simply implies not involved in the metagame, the fact is that you'd have to spell out that casual doesn't mean running bad decks and stickin to it. You can improve in casual play just as much as competitive, bar side decking.

 

So, force a standard on casual threads.

 

Discussing Mobius in Monarch whatevers is okay.

 

Discussing Share the Pain in Empowered Warrior Zombie WIND Stun isn't.

 

Basically, if the topic is obviously bad, it's lockable.

[Expelsword]

I'm not entirely sure what's being posed anymore...

If your point was that we need to cut down on flaming, then, yeah, I mean, every community needs to do that; it's what mods are for.

A lot of topics have gotten heated really fast because sometimes people let their (ir)rational hate of a card get in the way of actually posting something constructive (I've done it before... Igknights, Judgment Dragon, and now Wavering Eyes are a sour spot for a lot of players). I think in the case that you hate cards, you should at least frame why you hate it  vs. other cards, or what specifically you find wrong with the card's design, or how it should be limited, etc. to make a deck more fair. (Someone did point out above that this site is built on card design, that's what sets us apart from other sites)

 

If the point was that there's too much ignorance or worthless discussion going around, well then I'd say we need to be careful about how we try to restrict posting.

 

On one side we have the infamous Pojo. Take a look at their strategy section. They have a deck discussion topic for just about any archetype under the Sun, despite how relevant or irrelevant they are at the current time, and they can go into the hundreds of pages. Naturally, there's a lot of bad posting that goes on there, maybe 5% of each discussion topic actually has good strategy/discussion, but it seems like with so much posting going on from anyone even remotely interested that it welcomes new players readily and lets them catch up fast.

 

On the other side we have DuelistGroundz. I don't look at a lot of their stuff, but a quick perusal of their discussion threads reveal that they have a sparse set of discussions only for the current meta, and all the others either fell totally out of flavor or were locked on purpose. They are also MUCH shorter than Pojo's. Seems like a very unwelcoming elite atmosphere prevents newer players from jumping in.

 

Someone who knows the sites better can jump in here, but my point is that we should definitely try to stay between the two extremes when it comes to YGO discussion. Don't be scared to bring up a card that seems irrelevant IF you can come up with something to say about it.

[Toffee.]

I'm not entirely sure what's being posed anymore-

We had a topic like this years ago; Basially we want to improve the overall "quality" of the TCG/OCG section.

It worked last time, mind you.

[Zauls]

Yeah, there's not just one thing being posed, I was making people aware of the problems we had and creating a place to discuss/resolve them. 

 

Your point about the two extremes is understandable. I personally feel a thread of hundreds of pages makes me feel intimidated when joining a new forum because I can't go through and read all of that so I will miss out on a lot of points of discussion. I agree that we shouldn't restrict discussion to competitive only, though, since only a handful of people on the forum play competitively and casual discussion is completely fine anyway.

 

I think what I want to go for is shorter topics of specific things that the OP wants to discuss, like the competitive applications of Smashing Ground, or Raigeki Break vs Phoenix Wing vs Karma Cut, etc. We could also have this along with general archetype discussion threads that stick around for people to post in when they like. It might be difficult to keep those kinds of threads active though, so I'm open to suggestions.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

This is the only post I'm going to make in this topic, since I don't post here in TCG enough to have a strong opinion, on the rest of the stuff.

 

If all it takes is someone saying a buzzword to cause you and everyone else to immediately stop all discussion, then that sounds like an issue with the reaction then with the cause.

 

The gun comparison is just silly, there is a huge difference between firearms in public, and someone discussing a topic you don't care about, and if the response is such a massive overreaction, then the issue is less the trigger and more how you all react to it.

 

I'll agree that design doesn't matter when you want to talk about the impact, but acting like design has no place in discussions ever is... Kinda silly.

This is very important. Good job Birdie.

Sure the buzzwords are annoying but you can still react to them better. As I said before.

 

If they didn't explain why they feel a certain way, ask them to explain, if you disagree, explain why you disagree. No reason to say "This is f***ing stupid" or "Why post if you're not going to say anything?"

Plus if you count it as spam, replying to spam is also spam.

 

Anyway, as to design. I think that it makes sense to let people discuss design of cards if they feel like it. But if it's not the point of the thread, the OP needs to make that clear.