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Response: Everything wrong with this place/ My concerns with the forums.


epicmemesbro

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This is NOT an attempt to revive that misc. thread fad. This is a serious discussion.

 

Hey all, I would have done this around the time Klav made his thread but I would have ran the risk of people assuming it was one of those fad threads that arisen from Klav's original post and not taking it seriously. Now that the situation revolving Klav has cooled down I can give my take on his claims as well as concerns I have of my own regarding the forums. 

 

    Unlike Klav, I don't think the forums is a doomed infestation, but I do think there are some things that can be improved on.

 

"Justice warriors everywhere. Everthing's cute and fluffy and everyone is perfect and "you should just let people do what they want to do". Sure, some things aren't forbidden by the rules, but the amount of s*** some people pull out is just ridiculous at times, and nah, I should sit back and shut up because "people are just having fun". And before anything, I got a huge dose of warns in my life so all I'm doing is getting properly punished and I'm fully aware of those punishments being justified." -Klav

 

I don't think this place is infested with sjws equivalent to that of tumblr, however sometimes situations of policitical -correctness do arise to the point of people adopting an sjw mentaility. For instance I noticed this in disputes between members. Two members that get along just fine come at a crossroads where one doesn't agree with the other in a certain issue (such as the general threads). Next thing you know they start throwing ad hominems ad each other in an all out flame war. 

 

Some people even post "trigger warnings" in their threads in fear of people getting into some verbal fight. That is kinda redundant considering that one has to abide by the forum rules regardless. Might as well post all the ycm forum rules within the thread. If one does get involved in a flame war, let the mods handle it. A simple warning wont stop this.

 

This segues into another issue people have: The moderating team.

 

"This will get locked/removed one way or the other because there's no freedom of speech here, as once proved by Rodrigo's huge post being removed, but that was Crab Helmet days, so let's hope we're in a better world right now." Klav

 

 

I don't really think Mod abuse is an issue in these forums, however the mods could handle things a tad differently. For instance, whenever two members are getting in a dispute I have noticed that the mods wait until the dispute is over and start engaging in damage control by removing posts and banning members. Issues can be resolved by interfering during a dispute to prevent it from going out of proportion, since one cant prevent it beforehand, and waiting until the flame war is over isn't very efficient. Also the mod selection process could be more impartial. Alot of members where upset over the process being a popularity contest a while back. I don't think its a good idea to select mods just because they personally know them. 

Another thing is that mods are either very lenient or very strict. I'm not sure if all mods have to follow a certain set of rules when it comes to regulation but the mods have a very different way of handling things. I've noticed some people making questionable posts in regards to the forum rules, but wasn't called out. A while back one posted some joke cards involving an innuendo, and he was banned, yet another member made a more explicit card and no one reprimanded him. It may have to do with the latter member being of higher rank which leads me to the next issue:

 

"Everyone and everyone being "untouchable". If someone's new on the forum, you can blatantly trashtalk and flame them, and no one will blink an eye. If it comes to established people, everything's perfect and ideal and you can't say anything. Like seriously, what the f***? f***ing tumblr mentality. Sure, some things aren't forbidden by the rules, but the amount of s*** some people pull out is just ridiculous at times, and nah, I should sit back and shut up because "people are just having fun". And before anything, I got a huge dose of warns in my life so all I'm doing is getting properly punished and I'm fully aware of those punishments being justified." -Klav

 

There is a large line drawn between the lower and higher ranking members. I have noticed that a lot of higher ranking members are the majority in terms of posting. I haven't really seen much activity amongst lower rankers in the forums. Alot of lower rankers dont get the injokes and references that the higher rankers do and thus feel less inclusive. Mods seem to be more lenient towards higher rankers, although I can understand since newer members are not used to the way the rules work and such. But I noticed that alot of higher rankers tend to "push the envelope" and mods don't interfere. If a lower ranker pulls a similar act, they will most likely be punished. Also some higher ranking members pick on lower rankers on a few occasions. This is probably because higher rankers are used to joking with each other. I feel like things could be more inclusive to newer members.

 

And finally:

 

"Fad after fad after fad after fad. People legit take enjoyment from this? From doing a random thing everyone else on the forum did to be "cool" because you're like others? Name fads, status fad, misc fads, you name it. If you need such a "fake" sense of belonging to a group, you should rethink some things and maybe try making actual friends. Trust me, it's better.

 
Misc. Like really, why does this section even exist. It dropped the average IQ of everyone on this forum at least by 10 points because while someone was a retard before, they were forced to act like not because rules disallowed to. " -Klav
 
I know misc. was made as a way to get the spam out of threads, and had good intentions and such. However it has turned into a  cesspit. Any content that might be less redundant is out-bumped by the redundant topics. Another issue is these fad threads. I know they are meant to be silly but some of these were based on a fight between members (i.e. the raeg and Klav ordeal). The fad threads might have been done to lighten the mood but they only trivialize the matter and increase tension between the two parties. In the "I have steam" threads, a person had legit concerns and ended up leaving because of those fads. Also these status threads based on other members is an  issue. The fight with Klav started because the threads were posting members names without their permission. I know raeg didn't have any ill intentions but he should have asked members first. I dont think misc. should be removed but it should be regulated a tad more...
 
I don't think members are to blame for this, its just the way things have been happening. Im not calling for some revolution I think some 
things can be considered for reform.
 
What do you guys think is an issue here? feel free to post.
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I would like to point out the original "I have steam" thread maker is still around.

 

Anyway Misc does no harm, everyone who has said it does seems to only have "It's stupid" (which is an opinion) and "It spills onto other sections" (which we have no proof for). It's a fun and silly place and it's all the way at the bottom of the site.

I mean, I don't have any interest in a lot of other sections but I just don't go there.

 

I know there was a lot more but wanted to say that since I'm sorta busy but saw it.

 

 

I agree "high-ranked" members do get leniency which I think is wrong, never liked that. However in-jokes happen with everyone. For instance this name change of mine is technically an in-joke with people in an RP (which includes some less known members).

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It should be noted that I have no issue with the in-jokes and references, I just think there could be a way to be more inclusive to the lower members because a newer member did post how he didn't understand these....

Nor do I have an issue with misc in general. I think its an issue where people ridicule situations via posts  in which people got into a serious verbal fight, as well as it being based on a serious topic. Also I did see an instance that misc spilled into the general section. One person made a post about who was going to be in the 20$ bill, and someone (wont name anyone) posted a meme macro of "I just came here to see the comments". which was followed by a few others. That was probably what lead to the mods reinforcing the spam rules. 

 

 

And yes I agree that Klav probably made that thread in an attempt to draw attention away and to justify his actions in that verbal fight.

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It should be noted that I have no issue with the in-jokes and references, I just think there could be a way to be more inclusive to the lower members because a newer member did post how he didn't understand these....

Nor do I have an issue with misc in general. I think its an issue where people ridicule situations via posts  in which people got into a serious verbal fight, as well as it being based on a serious topic. Also I did see an instance that misc spilled into the general section. One person made a post about who was going to be in the 20$ bill, and someone (wont name anyone) posted a meme macro of "I just came here to see the comments". which was followed by a few others. That was probably what lead to the mods reinforcing the spam rules. 

 

 

And yes I agree that Klav probably made that thread in an attempt to draw attention away and to justify his actions in that verbal fight.

Yeah I agree with all of what you said really here thanks for clearing that up. :)

 

Oh but the spilling out into the General section. Trust me we had that kind of spam in topics before Misc was a thing ^^;

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I dunno, I'm newer on this site, and I do feel that sometimes older members get away with things newer members would never get away with, or at least because they post more, their opinion matters much more than mine. If I don't kiss up to them, I'm kinda doomed to never be taken seriously... Although that's more of a problem in life in general than just here.

 

Also, newer members don't get as much feedback as older ones. I mean, I wanted to make cards and improve. I don't do it now, because will ever comment on my cards. I think maybe one card got 4 comments, and dear god, that's a milestone for me. It may be because I do causal cards though, since I know Jack squat about the meta. But... That's frustrating to me. C'mon, I wanna know how I did.

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I would also like to add something else, but rather than it being a concern I find it to be plus for the site.

 

 

It is great how the mods are selected once in a while rather than being a mod for a long time. The mod-user relations are pretty good as well.

 

Another thing done well is the lack of overreaction of other members or members getting involved in a dispute between other members. In other sites I've noticed that when there is some major drama at work members take sides and start a massive flame war all over the threads. People here tend to keep their cool during those times.

 

pranks aren't much of an issue for the most part, they get out of hand on very few occasions such as that time where a bunch of members were temporarily banned back in 2012. Other than that they are harmless.

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I dunno, I'm newer on this site, and I do feel that sometimes older members get away with things newer members would never get away with, or at least because they post more, their opinion matters much more than mine. If I don't kiss up to them, I'm kinda doomed to never be taken seriously... Although that's more of a problem in life in general than just here.

 

Also, newer members don't get as much feedback as older ones. I mean, I wanted to make cards and improve. I don't do it now, because will ever comment on my cards. I think maybe one card got 4 comments, and dear god, that's a milestone for me. It may be because I do causal cards though, since I know Jack squat about the meta. But... That's frustrating to me. C'mon, I wanna know how I did.

 

Honestly, I'll like you more if you DON'T suck up. Just saying.

 

On a side note, I'm thinking of reviving an older, forum game to attempt to include newer members. A way to get everyone to be friends! Currently working on details before I bring to the public though.

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Eating bananas, too lazy to quote.

 

Post #1: "I dont think misc. should be removed but it should be regulated a tad more..."

 

Why?

 

The whole point of the section is that members screw around.

 

It's like the bar.

 

You drink, watch the game, play pool, throw darts, get wasted, maybe go home with a random sexual partner you've just met.

 

"This will get locked/removed one way or the other because there's no freedom of speech here, as once proved by Rodrigo's huge post being removed, but that was Crab Helmet days, so let's hope we're in a better world right now." Klav

 

Should've been pointed out in the original thread, but Rodrigo had been banned by Crab Helmet prior to that thread, and even admitted getting into a damage control account to unban himself so he could make that thread. So, Rod broke the rules by evading a ban to make that thread.

 

Post #5: "It should be noted that I have no issue with the in-jokes and references, I just think there could be a way to be more inclusive to the lower members because a newer member did post how he didn't understand these...."

 

It's standard for someone new to a community to not understand the cliques, culture, and in-jokes from people who already know each other.

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I was away when the original thread was made so never got a chance to seriously comment, but I guess here are my two cents.

 

I really don't have a problem with a lot of the things Klav flagged in his post. Sure, I find the fads and the constant roleplaying and people spending every waking hour on this site personally undesirable, but hey, to each their own - at the end of the day I spend lots of money to travel and play Yugioh, which is really no better than any of the stuff that goes on on YCM. 

 

There are a handful of things I do wish to address though, and forgive me if I offend anyone. A lot of this is personal bias, too, and I don't expect to be agreed with.

 

First of all, I do agree with a lot of points Klav made about the way people treat Yugioh on this site. I've said before that I don't mind casual players and don't even mind players so casual that they have no intention of improving, but I do have a problem with people who dismiss an entire part of the game, or indeed the entire game completely. This excerpt from Klav's post actually sums up my thoughts exactly-

 

This game isn't constantly being powercrept and Konami isn't literally Hitler regarding this game. Some choices they do (and cards they print) are dumb, but the entire "YGO is f***ing horrible" circlejerk is literally disgusting. You're on a YGO forum. If you wanna trash the game, go somewhere else. Especially if you get all defensive when someone insults your fad or favorite anime.

 

I do also disagree slightly with the style of modding on this site, but not in the way that's already been mentioned. I'll be taking a lot of comparisons from Smogon, which I feel for all its flaws is moderated efficiently, so bear with me. One of the main gripes I have with mods is that they constantly give these "reminders" not to do something, while rarely actually enforcing it. Smogon staff are pretty heavy-handed with deleting shitposting (or "spam", as it's known as here for some reason), and as a result the threads look an awful lot cleaner than here where you're left with somebody making some kind of redundant or meaningless post and then a mod making another post which is essentially redundant and meaningless as well, telling that person to stop doing that. I assume the function to delete posts is available for mods on YCM, and it's not as scary a prospect as people seem to make it out to be here. I always cringe slightly when I see a "guys, stop spamming" post, deleting and, if appropriate, warning the perpetrator seems like a much better option. I'm not going to single out any one mod because I've seen almost everyone do it at least once. 

 

Finally, I do have a real problem with constant name changes. I know they're ingrained in YCMs culture but I myself find it a massive nuisance when people are constantly changing names, especially if the name has unicode characters which makes it a lot more effort to write down (when I was hosting YCMCS it was always a bit of a pain to put down unicode names, to the point where I just didn't do it much). It's also not always readily apparent who is who and it's not always that easy to go on their profile and check their previous names, especially on mobile where it's more or less impossible. I know the alias feature helps with this but some people don't have aliases (yet I do, for some reason? I will be keeping the lowercase H permanently, you know) and it's not always readily apparent at first glance. It's even harder when people have names very similar to one another (this is the one thing I really think shouldn't be allowed, it's really really annoying and makes recognising posts a fair bit harder). I'm talking about Smogon again but name changes there are moderator-controlled and limited to one and then a changeback, and I find it makes people much easier to recognise and I don't really think the forum is missing out on much by not having the feature. Yes, I know name changes are fun, and I have had my fair share in the past (not anymore, I'm abstaining from them now), but I do wish they weren't a thing. I probably won't have much support for this and this isn't really a genuine suggestion, just something I feel to be the case.

 

Despite the fact that a lot of it goes over my head and there's a lot of references and cliques that go over my head, I really don't feel this site is anywhere near as bad as people are making out. It's not "dying", assuming it shouldn't already be considered dead, I don't really feel there are many major structural issues and the game the site is (loosely) based on is in good stead and doesn't look to be dying anytime soon. There's just a few things I disagree/have a problem with.

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I dunno, I'm newer on this site, and I do feel that sometimes older members get away with things newer members would never get away with, or at least because they post more, their opinion matters much more than mine. If I don't kiss up to them, I'm kinda doomed to never be taken seriously... Although that's more of a problem in life in general than just here.

 

Also, newer members don't get as much feedback as older ones. I mean, I wanted to make cards and improve. I don't do it now, because will ever comment on my cards. I think maybe one card got 4 comments, and dear god, that's a milestone for me. It may be because I do causal cards though, since I know Jack squat about the meta. But... That's frustrating to me. C'mon, I wanna know how I did.

Let me stop you right there. Older Members don't get any Special Treatment as I was a Veteran at the time of my Perma Bannng (along with a group of other members who were also Vets). Newer members are obviously watched a bit more as the Mods don't know how they would turn out yet. Also the Vets have a distinct way they post so a Mod would be tough on them if they ever stepped out of line.

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Let me stop you right there. Older Members don't get any Special Treatment as I was a Veteran at the time of my Perma Bannng (along with a group of other members who were also Vets). Newer members are obviously watched a bit more as the Mods don't know how they would turn out yet. Also the Vets have a distinte way they post so a Mod would be tough of them of they ever stepped out of line.

 

You'll notice that you are no longer "permabanned" - don't you think this is a little bit of special treatment? At any rate, the special treatment is more for lineskating and general demeanor than for clear-cut incidents.

 

I do agree that there is a little bit of special treatment but not in so far as I see it as a problem - after all, if you've contributed constantly to this site for ages and are liked by many I'd be happy with those sort of people being able to cut corners now and again. Someone like Dae or Dog King would have a whole load more sheet coming to them if they were unknown, but since I appreciate the value they bring to this site I don't really mind. Even I myself make sarcastic, underdeveloped and rude posts now and again, but I'd like to imagine nobody thinks I should be banned or anything.

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You'll notice that you are no longer "permabanned" - don't you think this is a little bit of special treatment? At any rate, the special treatment is more for lineskating and general demeanor than for clear-cut incidents.

 

I do agree that there is a little bit of special treatment but not in so far as I see it as a problem - after all, if you've contributed constantly to this site for ages and are liked by many I'd be happy with those sort of people being able to cut corners now and again. Someone like Dae or Dog King would have a whole load more sheet coming to them if they were unknown, but since I appreciate the value they bring to this site I don't really mind. Even I myself make sarcastic, underdeveloped and rude posts now and again, but I'd like to imagine nobody thinks I should be banned or anything.

I can understand that yes..... But at the time Frunk was openingly attacking me and I took the Bait. It was supposed to be a 2 Week Ban from what I remembered but then Crab Helmet came in and swung it for a Perma, changing my Signature to call me a Pedophile just to add insult to injury. I was allowed back on the terms that I would never post anything perverted again and to remain on my best behavior. I have kept to that. 

 

Anyway back on Topic.:P

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I do also disagree slightly with the style of modding on this site, but not in the way that's already been mentioned. I'll be taking a lot of comparisons from Smogon, which I feel for all its flaws is moderated efficiently, so bear with me. One of the main gripes I have with mods is that they constantly give these "reminders" not to do something, while rarely actually enforcing it. Smogon staff are pretty heavy-handed with deleting shitposting (or "spam", as it's known as here for some reason), and as a result the threads look an awful lot cleaner than here where you're left with somebody making some kind of redundant or meaningless post and then a mod making another post which is essentially redundant and meaningless as well, telling that person to stop doing that. I assume the function to delete posts is available for mods on YCM, and it's not as scary a prospect as people seem to make it out to be here. I always cringe slightly when I see a "guys, stop spamming" post, deleting and, if appropriate, warning the perpetrator seems like a much better option. I'm not going to single out any one mod because I've seen almost everyone do it at least once.

This is an interesting one for me. I'm probably main reminding people guy, mostly because the spam is almost exclusively in General. I do that mostly because the complaints in the past were having not enough warning towards why they were warned, and sheet like that. I'm totally okay with deleting spam posts as I appreciate just having threads not having not be moved to Misc because people were clogging up the thread, or posting image macro-only posts as rep bait, or just generally having spam derail threads.

 

This is up to the people though. Dunno how agreeable silent deleting is with the others. I'm cool with it up to an extent. I like Smogon's modding style. It's very consistent. And hard to disagree with.

 

It's important that a modding style doesn't drain the fun out of a forum though. This has that potential, but it's arguably less hassle both sides.

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If it's something like Spambots then by all means continue to Silent Delete. However, I am a bit more wary about Silent Delete potential Arguments or peoples thoughts on the Forums. I believe that dishing out a small warn to each member involved in the dispute should be more then sufficiant. With more severe situations involving a Ban.

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If it's something like Spambots then by all means continue to Silent Delete. However, I am a bit more wary about Silent Delete potential Arguments or peoples thoughts on the Forums. I believe that dishing out a small warn to each member involved in the dispute should be more then sufficiant. With more severe situations involving a Ban.

 

Well, deleting arguments is a slippery slope and I wouldn't ever recommend that, just deleting meaningless "spam" posts (for the record, I don't consider likebait images to be these).

 

Obviously the opinion of many other people is important - I'm personally very comfortable with silent delete being used a lot more often than it is now, but if I'm in the minority then I wouldn't care either way. 

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stuffs

I do agree with a lotta this, and I don't disagree with any of it really. Sorry about the name change, I rarely do it for a reason ^^; I don't mind people doing it sometimes really, but that's mostly cause I don't have a phone and never deal with mobile. ^^;

 

Oh btw for the record as one of the people who spend a lot of time checking this site, it's partially cause a lot of the things I do (games, writing, reading, etc) I do on my laptop so why not XD

Mainly wanting to mention, as someone who's had to deal with code/special letters in names for tournaments. Copy/Paste is your friend trust me XD

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Well, deleting arguments is a slippery slope and I wouldn't ever recommend that, just deleting meaningless "spam" posts (for the record, I don't consider likebait images to be these).

 

Obviously the opinion of many other people is important - I'm personally very comfortable with silent delete being used a lot more often than it is now, but if I'm in the minority then I wouldn't care either way. 

Even with the idea of deleting spam posts, there should at least be a pm sent out to the poster saying "Hey, your post was deleted and this is why".

 

Ignorance isn't ever bliss, and people who don't know why they got "punished" (even something minor as a deleted post) tend to get angry.

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I do also disagree slightly with the style of modding on this site, but not in the way that's already been mentioned. I'll be taking a lot of comparisons from Smogon, which I feel for all its flaws is moderated efficiently, so bear with me. One of the main gripes I have with mods is that they constantly give these "reminders" not to do something, while rarely actually enforcing it. Smogon staff are pretty heavy-handed with deleting shitposting (or "spam", as it's known as here for some reason), and as a result the threads look an awful lot cleaner than here where you're left with somebody making some kind of redundant or meaningless post and then a mod making another post which is essentially redundant and meaningless as well, telling that person to stop doing that. I assume the function to delete posts is available for mods on YCM, and it's not as scary a prospect as people seem to make it out to be here. I always cringe slightly when I see a "guys, stop spamming" post, deleting and, if appropriate, warning the perpetrator seems like a much better option. I'm not going to single out any one mod because I've seen almost everyone do it at least once. 

 

Finally, I do have a real problem with constant name changes. I know they're ingrained in YCMs culture but I myself find it a massive nuisance when people are constantly changing names, especially if the name has unicode characters which makes it a lot more effort to write down (when I was hosting YCMCS it was always a bit of a pain to put down unicode names, to the point where I just didn't do it much). It's also not always readily apparent who is who and it's not always that easy to go on their profile and check their previous names, especially on mobile where it's more or less impossible. I know the alias feature helps with this but some people don't have aliases (yet I do, for some reason? I will be keeping the lowercase H permanently, you know) and it's not always readily apparent at first glance. It's even harder when people have names very similar to one another (this is the one thing I really think shouldn't be allowed, it's really really annoying and makes recognising posts a fair bit harder). I'm talking about Smogon again but name changes there are moderator-controlled and limited to one and then a changeback, and I find it makes people much easier to recognise and I don't really think the forum is missing out on much by not having the feature. Yes, I know name changes are fun, and I have had my fair share in the past (not anymore, I'm abstaining from them now), but I do wish they weren't a thing. I probably won't have much support for this and this isn't really a genuine suggestion, just something I feel to be the case.

1. For CC purposes, posts need to be cracked down on if they aren't up to standard.

Specifically, are you making a comment about how the card is designed effect/flavor-wise, and less on "you have bad OCG; let me fix it".

 

Or just talk about other random references and nothing more, and it does happen.

 

General thing is that first offense gets a verbal warn, and anything further will warrant a warn increase.

(Older members skip a verbal warning, and move on to actual points, because you've been around for a while and should know better)

 

It may not be explicitly mentioned in a post (because warns are a matter between the member in question and whatever mod is giving them out), but members are indeed sanctioned if they break the rules, should situations require it.

 

I'd rather not be the moderator who hands out warning points for every rule break, especially on newer and returning members, but things need to be done, so it doesn't devolve in a spam hole.

 

The delete button does exist, or rather we just hide the posts.

(You guys can consider them as deleted [because you won't see them], but they still exist for the other staff members to see, in case some disputes arise).

 

Although, there haven't been any situations in CC that would be considered as banworthy [aside from that one incident], and again, he was given plenty of chances, but blew them all. Most warns/sanctions are generally individual. If arguments erupt, normally the thread gets locked.

 

Necrobumps just get hidden + thread locked.

 

Intros/Q&A don't require much, save for making sure people don't make random +1 posts.

 

Spambot threads are auto-deleted though, and bots permabanned on-sight.

 

----

As for PMing members to explain what's going on, some members lock their PMs so we can't talk it out, so only option is to warn them.

However, that hasn't happened much.

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Even with the idea of deleting spam posts, there should at least be a pm sent out to the poster saying "Hey, your post was deleted and this is why".

 

Ignorance isn't ever bliss, and people who don't know why they got "punished" (even something minor as a deleted post) tend to get angry.

 

Well, I don't think most of the people who are reminded to stop spamming aren't aware of the reason they are being punished.

 

I notice Smogon has an option to give a reason for deleting the post on the post itself, so that the poster only can see the reason, a bit like this

e5xVlWV.png

Does such a feature exist/is such a feature feasible on YCM? This would get rid of any confusion caused.

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We don't have that function here, ihop.

As for implementing it, if IP.Boards has a plugin and YCMaker is around to install it, then perhaps it can be done.

We can just click Edit, erase the post content, and put the reason it was erased like that.

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