Dimension Fusion

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

On the topic of Soul Charge; Soul Charge is still seeing hits on the banlist despite not fitting in a lot of decks.

 

And I agree with Giga. This isn't casual, this is for tournament/advanced play. Cards can stay banned, and there's no consequence. This card needs to stay banned because it's a really unfair one-card mass summon that really closes the duel in right then and there, and the fact that it's banish and not grave means that more often than not it's a one-sided benefit. I'm chalking this up there with Future Fusion as just a really bad concept you can't balance and make fair for advanced play without outright neutering the card.

 

I said it in the Future Fusion thread, and I'll say it again: Cards can stay banned. Cards being banned is not a bad thing. Cards don't need to be errata'd and brought back. Nostalgia is an awful reason for competitive play. If you really want nostalgia/fun times, play this casually where you can use whatever card you want. Competitive banlists don't need to cater to casual play and definitely should not.

*cracks knuckles*

 

K I'll bite, say this is for Advanced play. If cards stay banned when they need minor fixes, you're dampening down the variety of the format. Like people criticize the DMoC errata, but did it not bring a new breed of Shaddoll decks into the game even post construct ban?

 

So lets get to the unfair mass summon portion of this shall we? It's hardly one sided because if it's being warranted being played in the meta, you can be damn sure that more than one person is playing that deck and hence it's not one sided. You know what I will give you though? Summoning three Dark Destroyer is kinda BS. So how about this

 

Pay 2000 Life Points; Both players Special Summon as many of their removed from play monsters as possible. Their effect are negated. You cannot conduct your Battle Phase the turn you activate this card. You can only activate 1 "Dimension Fusion" per turn.

 

Now, all you're getting is late game bodies that can't attack or push for game and give you opponent equal opportunity to summon. Can you go like thee Juggler into Shock Master or Ptolo Infinity? Damn sure, but you can do the same damn thing with soul charge and ain't NO mother funkers doing that. (No the -1000 more is not in par with getting effects and grave being easier to hit than the banished pile)

 

Future Fusion? This sheet again? How about one of you tell me exactly what's bad about having Future Fusion

 

1) Mill Specific Material

2) Mill on the second turn with no restriction

 

You know what's wrong with your and Giga's pt? Konami doesn't funking see it that way. YGO is losing players especially after the hole sheet storm with Infinity Law and such OCG side. You want to know the high point of the sales pre-Extra Pack? It wasn't DOL2 or even CORE. Remember Duelist Road? 

The set that errata'ed 5 cards? Yeah that sheet sold out within a week and was restocked multiple times. Remember Chaos Emperor Dragon? Well Dark Matter Dragon turned that card into an 60$ dollar card. Now that may seem cheap to you, but realize a full Nekroz deck was only about 70$

 

So the "casuals" do funking matter because they generate a lot of damn revenue for Konami. So please, enough of that bullshit.

[Dragulas]

Until Kozmos get murdered by the banlist(who knows when that s gonna be) this card cannot come back even with the errata

 

Preventing BP is a step in the right direction, yet its not enough, this card can potentially full your board for just 2000, thais what makes this different from soul charge, with later if you want a full board you will have to pay more. Maybe a requirement so both players have SS at least 1 monster so now both will (have to) "benefit" from the card.

 

Konami is afraid of making decent replacements for the banned cards because they fear they could "reactivate the cancer", so what they do is create a new card so bad players wont even care. (Envoys - Sky Scourges), from that point of view is better to have an errated card that now can be played (as long as it is decent, not like the serpent or crush card), than having a new useless card for the pool, while the original is still banned

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Until Kozmos get murdered by the banlist(who knows when that s gonna be) this card cannot come back even with the errata

 

Preventing BP is a step in the right direction, yet its not enough, this card can potentially full your board for just 2000, thais what makes this different from soul charge, with later if you want a full board you will have to pay more. Maybe a requirement so both players have SS at least 1 monster so now both will (have to) "benefit" from the card.

 

Konami is afraid of making decent replacements for the banned cards because they fear they could "reactivate the cancer", so what they do is create a new card so bad players wont even care. (Envoys - Sky Scourges), from that point of view is better to have an errated card that now can be played (as long as it is decent, not like the serpent or crush card), than having a new useless card for the pool, while the original is still banned

Negate the effects of the cards you summon. Done deal

 

Pay 2000 Life Points; Both players Special Summon as many of their removed from play monsters as possible. Their effect(s) are negated. You cannot conduct your Battle Phase the turn you activate this card. You can only activate 1 "Dimension Fusion" per turn.

[vla1ne]

*cracks knuckles*

 

K I'll bite, say this is for Advanced play. If cards stay banned when they need minor fixes, you're dampening down the variety of the format. Like people criticize the DMoC errata, but did it not bring a new breed of Shaddoll decks into the game even post construct ban?

 

So lets get to the unfair mass summon portion of this shall we? It's hardly one sided because if it's being warranted being played in the meta, you can be damn sure that more than one person is playing that deck and hence it's not one sided. You know what I will give you though? Summoning three Dark Destroyer is kinda BS. So how about this

 

Pay 2000 Life Points; Both players Special Summon as many of their removed from play monsters as possible. Their effect are negated. You cannot conduct your Battle Phase the turn you activate this card. You can only activate 1 "Dimension Fusion" per turn.

 

Now, all you're getting is late game bodies that can't attack or push for game and give you opponent equal opportunity to summon. Can you go like thee Juggler into Shock Master or Ptolo Infinity? Damn sure, but you can do the same damn thing with soul charge and ain't NO mother f***ers doing that. (No the -1000 more is not in par with getting effects and grave being easier to hit than the banished pile)

 

Future Fusion? This s*** again? How about one of you tell me exactly what's bad about having Future Fusion

 

1) Mill Specific Material

2) Mill on the second turn with no restriction

 

You know what's wrong with your and Giga's pt? Konami doesn't f***ing see it that way. YGO is losing players especially after the hole s*** storm with Infinity Law and such OCG side. You want to know the high point of the sales pre-Extra Pack? It wasn't DOL2 or even CORE. Remember Duelist Road? 

The set that errata'ed 5 cards? Yeah that s*** sold out within a week and was restocked multiple times. Remember Chaos Emperor Dragon? Well Dark Matter Dragon turned that card into an 60$ dollar card. Now that may seem cheap to you, but realize a full Nekroz deck was only about 70$

 

So the "casuals" do f***ing matter because they generate a lot of damn revenue for Konami. So please, enough of that bullshit.

you have some strong points, but i have to respectfully disagree with the majority of your post for the following reasons.

 

.[spoiler=my objections, sorry about any spelling errors]

 

This card does not need minor fixes, this card needs major fixes. the fact that the fixes add up to a few extra lines does not change the amount of fixing this card needs. DMoC was a card that needed a small fix. A simple time change in the resolution of the effect and it was no longer busted. On the other hand, DF needs at least 3 major clauses errata'd to even be considered for removal from the banlist, that's more changes than even CED. in addition, even with those 3 new clauses, it still creates an absurdly disproportional amount of advantage.

 

 It's hardly one sided because if it's being warranted being played in the meta, you can be damn sure that more than one person is playing that deck and hence it's not one sided  

 

that is not a good excuse to release it from the banlist. that's essentially like saying Djinn releaser of rituals is going to be used by every deck that can use it, and it is therefore a fair card. the amount of people playing the card is not a measure of it's fairness, it's a measure of it's strength. it's not the same thing.

 

as for your errata, the issue with it is the same thing that got soul charge hit, it might not allow for a game push on the turn it's used, but it does allow for a massive increase in advantage, but even beside that, if the card needs that much to even be considered fair, then why not make something similar that has a slightly more watered down effect? we have precedents for releasing variants of alternates in the forms of: the MST spin-offs (tornado, cyclone, galaxy cyclone, ect), the solemn series (warning, judgement, scolding, notice me senpai ) the mirror force series, the rescue series, ect, In fact, even dimension fusion has more fair variants to it that operate in other decks (Dimension explosion, Return, D.D.Revival, D.D Encounter ) they've already made quite a few cards that act as variants. all they'd need to do is add something that had a slightly stronger effect.

 

you are posting a hypothetical errata and arguing for it as if it already exists, i will be the first to say if they do decide to errata the card, your edition would be a favored vote, but what you appear to be missing is that even if we go by your errata, this card grabs things from a separate area than soul charge, it's a similar comparison, but unlike soul charge, the cost is the same no matter how much you grab, meaning the card costs less the more you summon in relation, this may seem small, but then  factor that there are cards that banish themselves or another card, because they can/ in order to come back from the grave and you've added an entirely new set of uses to cards that formerly would only have 2 uses tops, especially when it comes to synchros (for example, plaguespreader, quillbolt, junk anchor, birdman, jet synchron, spore, mirror resonator, ect. the list goes on for a while.) dimension fusion adds an entirely new set of combos to all of those cards, and many of them work in the exact same decks. keep in mind that like you said, there already exists soul charge, a card that spams from the grave for a whole other subset of power plays, and you still can't see that even with your errats, the two of those cards existing in the same format, even at 1 each would lead to you paying about 5-6k to go nuts so hard that the board needs contraceptive?

 

 

I may be reading this wrong, But did you just ask what's wrong with future fusion? did you ever play against chaos dragons? or cyber dragons? or even heroes for that matter? did you even see shadoll fusion? future fusion is a generic fusion card that goes through your deck for the material it needs, in other words, you don not need to draw the cards you want to use, you simply locate a suitable fusion, send them to the grave, and reap the benefits of controlled milling. ever seen frightfur wolf? Five headed dragon? every shaddoll fusion ever? chimeratech overdragon? infernoid tierra? every HERO fusion that needs 1 specific element/ multiple monsters(and is able to be summoned through normal fusion)? those cards become laval chains with future fusion. I'll say this much, it'd make the format ridiculously fusion dominated, but other than that, due to generic fusions (and chain material shennanigans), the card is busted AF. "drop every Infernoid/Machine/Dragon/Fluffal i own = GG?" 

 

 

your argument here is sound, konami cares about what moves packs, and that is what they should do, move packs, but there's a slight dissonance in your main point and the very last sentence:

 

the "casuals" do f***ing matter because they generate a lot of damn revenue for Konami.

 

Tell me something, why would casuals care about the erratas? casuals would mostly care about easily obtainable reprints, which the pack in question supplied splendidly. whether or not the cards were errata'd, collectors and casuals alike would have bought it simply for the somewhat easier to obtain reprints/ alternate arts of infamous cards and the nostalgia DM&DMG support. casuals will buy them regardless, casuals don't often buy boxes either, at least not as often as the competitive types and sellers, because casuals will not be turning a profit off of the cards (be it through tourney or reselling), therefore they would not be as likely to invest in said cards.

 

on that note, how many casuals do you know willing to shell out 60$ for single cards? from what i know over on the TCG side, the competitive players are the ones who drop big money top at tourneys, In fact, one guy dropped 60 on a playset of frightfur tiger soley to get the edge at his tournament. casuals help the game float from sheer numbers, but the competitive+selling scene is where the heaviest money often comes from. and on that subject, while i disagree with your point, i also have to disagree with Giga and VCR CAT, the competitive scene would buy the hell out of DF if it got an errata and returned, and that in itself is the problem, if you are competitive, you want to build your deck to get an edge on the opponent, the problem isn't the card's errata, the problem is that the card itself, is unfair, even with errata, and simply printing a newer, more balanced version from scratch would be healthier in the balancing mindset than forcing the older one through hoops to suit the creep(well, konami might still screw it up either way, but that's a whole other subject).

 

 

you are (from what i've read) arguing for the card to be errata'd. there are benefits and negatives, to this, but you have to realize that the card is nuts, and when i say nuts, i mean to a degree that it would require a heavy erratas to work properly, to the extent that it would no longer resemble it's former self (more so than even CED) in this case, a retrain would be the better option, on a retrain you can start from a clean slate with everything and remove the hoop process entirely.

 

 

 

not trying to start or spread vitriol, just posting my thoughts on the matter.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

you have some strong points, but i have to respectfully disagree with the majority of your post for the following reasons.

 

.[spoiler=my objections, sorry about any spelling errors]

 

This card does not need minor fixes, this card needs major fixes. the fact that the fixes add up to a few extra lines does not change the amount of fixing this card needs. DMoC was a card that needed a small fix. A simple time change in the resolution of the effect and it was no longer busted. On the other hand, DF needs at least 3 major clauses errata'd to even be considered for removal from the banlist, that's more changes than even CED. in addition, even with those 3 new clauses, it still creates an absurdly disproportional amount of advantage.

 

 It's hardly one sided because if it's being warranted being played in the meta, you can be damn sure that more than one person is playing that deck and hence it's not one sided  

 

that is not a good excuse to release it from the banlist. that's essentially like saying Djinn releaser of rituals is going to be used by every deck that can use it, and it is therefore a fair card. the amount of people playing the card is not a measure of it's fairness, it's a measure of it's strength. it's not the same thing.

 

as for your errata, the issue with it is the same thing that got soul charge hit, it might not allow for a game push on the turn it's used, but it does allow for a massive increase in advantage, but even beside that, if the card needs that much to even be considered fair, then why not make something similar that has a slightly more watered down effect? we have precedents for releasing variants of alternates in the forms of: the MST spin-offs (tornado, cyclone, galaxy cyclone, ect), the solemn series (warning, judgement, scolding, notice me senpai ) the mirror force series, the rescue series, ect, In fact, even dimension fusion has more fair variants to it that operate in other decks (Dimension explosion, Return, D.D.Revival, D.D Encounter ) they've already made quite a few cards that act as variants. all they'd need to do is add something that had a slightly stronger effect.

 

you are posting a hypothetical errata and arguing for it as if it already exists, i will be the first to say if they do decide to errata the card, your edition would be a favored vote, but what you appear to be missing is that even if we go by your errata, this card grabs things from a separate area than soul charge, it's a similar comparison, but unlike soul charge, the cost is the same no matter how much you grab, meaning the card costs less the more you summon in relation, this may seem small, but then  factor that there are cards that banish themselves or another card, because they can/ in order to come back from the grave and you've added an entirely new set of uses to cards that formerly would only have 2 uses tops, especially when it comes to synchros (for example, plaguespreader, quillbolt, junk anchor, birdman, jet synchron, spore, mirror resonator, ect. the list goes on for a while.) dimension fusion adds an entirely new set of combos to all of those cards, and many of them work in the exact same decks. keep in mind that like you said, there already exists soul charge, a card that spams from the grave for a whole other subset of power plays, and you still can't see that even with your errats, the two of those cards existing in the same format, even at 1 each would lead to you paying about 5-6k to go nuts so hard that the board needs contraceptive?

 

 

I may be reading this wrong, But did you just ask what's wrong with future fusion? did you ever play against chaos dragons? or cyber dragons? or even heroes for that matter? did you even see shadoll fusion? future fusion is a generic fusion card that goes through your deck for the material it needs, in other words, you don not need to draw the cards you want to use, you simply locate a suitable fusion, send them to the grave, and reap the benefits of controlled milling. ever seen frightfur wolf? Five headed dragon? every shaddoll fusion ever? chimeratech overdragon? infernoid tierra? every HERO fusion that needs 1 specific element/ multiple monsters(and is able to be summoned through normal fusion)? those cards become laval chains with future fusion. I'll say this much, it'd make the format ridiculously fusion dominated, but other than that, due to generic fusions (and chain material shennanigans), the card is busted AF. "drop every Infernoid/Machine/Dragon/Fluffal i own = GG?" 

 

 

your argument here is sound, konami cares about what moves packs, and that is what they should do, move packs, but there's a slight dissonance in your main point and the very last sentence:

 

the "casuals" do f***ing matter because they generate a lot of damn revenue for Konami.

 

Tell me something, why would casuals care about the erratas? casuals would mostly care about easily obtainable reprints, which the pack in question supplied splendidly. whether or not the cards were errata'd, collectors and casuals alike would have bought it simply for the somewhat easier to obtain reprints/ alternate arts of infamous cards and the nostalgia DM&DMG support. casuals will buy them regardless, casuals don't often buy boxes either, at least not as often as the competitive types and sellers, because casuals will not be turning a profit off of the cards (be it through tourney or reselling), therefore they would not be as likely to invest in said cards.

 

on that note, how many casuals do you know willing to shell out 60$ for single cards? from what i know over on the TCG side, the competitive players are the ones who drop big money top at tourneys, In fact, one guy dropped 60 on a playset of frightfur tiger soley to get the edge at his tournament. casuals help the game float from sheer numbers, but the competitive+selling scene is where the heaviest money often comes from. and on that subject, while i disagree with your point, i also have to disagree with Giga and VCR CAT, the competitive scene would buy the hell out of DF if it got an errata and returned, and that in itself is the problem, if you are competitive, you want to build your deck to get an edge on the opponent, the problem isn't the card's errata, the problem is that the card itself, is unfair, even with errata, and simply printing a newer, more balanced version from scratch would be healthier in the balancing mindset than forcing the older one through hoops to suit the creep(well, konami might still screw it up either way, but that's a whole other subject).

 

 

you are (from what i've read) arguing for the card to be errata'd. there are benefits and negatives, to this, but you have to realize that the card is nuts, and when i say nuts, i mean to a degree that it would require a heavy erratas to work properly, to the extent that it would no longer resemble it's former self (more so than even CED) in this case, a retrain would be the better option, on a retrain you can start from a clean slate with everything and remove the hoop process entirely.

 

 

 

 

Don't worry about it haha, I wanted discussion anyway. So to your points.

 

DMoC had 3 lines of fixes, OPT and add during EP. CED had 2. Semi-Nomi->Nomi and no other activation of effects. This was actually honest to the Anime because I don't believe Kaiba used any other effects that turn. (Correct me if I am incorrect)

 

DF would need 2 lines of errata. 1) No battle Phase 2) Negating the effect(s) of the cards it summons.

 

Let me clarify what I meant by it not being imbalanced. Say a meta deck could run DF. By nature of meta, other similar decks would be run (hence "meta") in which case DF would allow your opponent to summon from the banished pile too. Basically imagine a Kozmo mirror, which is quite likely to occur.

 

Djinn in my opinion was not the problem, but even in that case, if the Djinn made both players not able to special, I think you would have found the card more balanced. DF affects both players, that is what I mean by not one sided. See the thing about DF post the errata would mean that it could theoretically summon all 5 cards like the synchro scenario you suggested, but the banished pile being harder to access than the graveyard makes the card less live in most decks than it would soul charge. What if you only wanted one monster? Soul Charge would be less costly would it not. Dimension Fusion post errata would be a late game card while Soul Charge could be live as early as t1 in most decks

 

None of those cards are good is the problem. Grave Revival has amazing options such as Reborn, CoTH, and Charge. Banishment has nothing of the kind. Think of it like PoG and Charity in Goat. You can play Pog as soon as you draw it, soul charge, you want to save charity till you get the proper set up, this is more akin to Dimension Fusion.

 

Future Fusion. Ah, you missed that. It was another errata discussion, where the most popular suggestions were to rule Future Fusion like Prisma, so only things like BEUD would work with it, or errata it to mill only when the summon took place, so you'd have to wait 2 turns to get the mill. OG FuFu is busted af, never denied that.

 

Why do casuals care about erratas? Well for one it gets the card out more, which once a card is banned, it usually doesn't get reprinted, see GUB and OCG. The word I was looking for was Semi-Casuals. Look at dark dolls. People said post construct ban that Dolls would suck right? Well Dark Dolls used DMoC to great function and made a solid tier 2 deck for a while. Was it top of the line meta? Nah, but it was certainly a nice addition to the tier 2 of OCG.

 

More than anything, errata's are flashy sheet. They grab people's attentions, and attention is so very important for sales, cause players who might not have been interested in the the set will give it a second look. Casuals will buy something like Duelist Road again because it does hit their nostalgia and has hidden nest eggs like RoD and CCV back then which they can swap with competitive players. For example, plenty of UA fans in OCG bought the entire EP box. Why? Sell one Dante or some BA you pulled and you could easily get quite a few UA. Now apply the same principle to DF in the Millennium pack if it happens

 

TCG meta might, because Kozmo, but like I said, banishing a card is much harder to do proactively than sending stuff to the grave. When people aren't even running Reborn or Charge why would they go the extra mile for DF?