Logical Fallacy in YGO

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If Materials still counted as being on the field.... Nobody in there right mind would play Burgesstomas.

Agreed, I think the other ruling should be revoked, the Tengu one to clarify. It would literally just make Tengu and Stardust Warrior a little better

[ihop]

Pretty sure it's just BKSS to stop Tengu from becoming too broken. There's not a justifiable reason for cards not to be considered leaving the field when put under Xyz, but it's just the way Konami have ruled it. Imagine how good Tengu would be, especially now, if it triggered under an Xyz.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Pretty sure it's just BKSS to stop Tengu from becoming too broken. There's not a justifiable reason for cards not to be considered leaving the field when put under Xyz, but it's just the way Konami have ruled it. Imagine how good Tengu would be, especially now, if it triggered under an Xyz.

Can't be that much worse than the Clown can it?

[ihop]

Can't be that much worse than the Clown can it?

 

If you think about how much better Clown is than a level 4 Vanilla for Xyzing with, Tengu is basically that much better than the Clown.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If you think about how much better Clown is than a level 4 Vanilla for Xyzing with, Tengu is basically that much better than the Clown.

Clown + Tengu is pretty terrifying, I'll admit that

[玄魔の王]

I think one of the most grating things about Xyz is how Special Snowflake they are, of which Xyz Materials is one facet.

[Progenitor]

See there actually isn't that much of a logical fallacy here.  I like to think of YuGiOh as code, since they actually follow the same logic for a large majority of the structure.  The way I see it is that monsters in the Monster Card Zones are not just a variable of type "monsterCard" or whatever.  it's more like a Structure.  A structure is a type of data that is defined by its components.  For example, if you were coding in C++, and wanted to define a variable for the cost of something, you might use

 

struct Money{

int dollars;

int cents;

};

 

Money cost;

 

or something.  Essentially, this says that the variable "cost" is composed of 2 parts: cost.dollars, and cost.cents

This logic can also be applied to this situation.  Imagine:

struct MonsterCard{

-type- Name;

-type- Attack;

-type- Status;

.

. (etc.)

.

};

 

Now imagine that one of those things in MonsterCard is: MonsterCard XyzMaterial

What does this mean?  Well you've essentially said you've stored a monster card inside a monster card.  So if the original monster is in Zone 1, then becomes an Xyz material, it's not in Zone 1, and yet at the same time it is.  It's in....lets call it Zone 1, subsection A.  If you were to just look at the overall Zone 1-5, there does not exist the XyzMaterial card, but if you look closer at Zone 1, it IS in there, just on a different layer.  

 

To get more to the point: because that monster is now part of the structure, you CAN'T simply say cout << XyzMaterial; and expect it to print something.  XyzMaterial doesn't exist on its own.  It's inherently part of a larger whole.  You would have to say cout << (monsterCardName).XyzMaterial.something; to find the information you want.

 

If you can see where I'm going with this at all, then you understand why this isn't illogical.  It's just complicated.  Since Sangan is part of a Subsection of the field and not it's entirety, simply saying "from the field" is too vague.  You can't call cout << Sangan.Effect;  You have to call  cout << XyzMonster.Sangan.Effect;  Since that isn't specified, Sangan can't trigger.  Much the same with tengu.  It's not changing from MonsterCard structure type to say... and integer.  It's still a MonsterCard, just nested within another MonsterCard.  Therefore it's still technically on the field, but in a location where if its location as an Xyz Material is not expressly defined by the effect in question, then it is considered too vague to resolve.

 

I know that's not completely correct, but it's the way I like to justify it.

[The Warden]

I like to think of Xyz Material as a sort of pseudo cost mechanic. In that the materials are in an indefinite state of being between field and graveyard as a cost, in their own imaginary zone, which is beneath the Xyz monster. Normally a cost has a card go from Point A to Point B, but I like to consider Xyz monsters as Point B, with their final destination being Point C instead.

 

Point A: Field

Point B: Xyz monster

Point C: Graveyard/Banished Pile

 

Following this particular function, it justifies as to why field to graveyard effects won't work, as beneath the Xyz monster can be considered a midway point between field and final destination, and as such doesn't fulfil the requirements of field to graveyard, because it's field -> Xyz monster -> Graveyard.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Correct me if I'm incorrect, the problem with both of those is that Tengu still has to move places no? Either to the mid cost area or either Into another monster

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Correct me if I'm incorrect, the problem with both of those is that Tengu still has to move places no? Either to the mid cost area or either Into another monster

Due to the mid cost area not actually existing, the card doesn't work there. The flaw is really just assuming that xyz material are anywhere at all.

[The Warden]

Pretty much, yeah. They're in a state of perpetual non-existence.