Logical Fallacy in YGO

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

So this question has been bothering me for quite some time now. We are told that being XYZ material is not considered being on the field (sangan wont trigger off detach) and also becoming XYZ material is not considered leaving the field (Tengu won't spawn a Tengu)

 

Now this doesn't work.

 

Let assume that the Field is area "A", and the XYZ Material area is Area "B"

 

Case 1: A and B are distinct areas. Based on the idea that a card cannot exist in two places at once, if a card were to travel from one area to another, it must leave the first area. Therefore Reborn Tengu must trigger. However it does not. Therefore if the Tengu ruling is correct, XYZ material are on the field by proof by contradiction.

 

Case 2: A and B are non-distinct areas. Reborn Tengu will not trigger by moving to the XYZ area since it never left the field. However, Sangan will trigger by being detached as material. However it was ruled to not do so. Therefore if the Sangan ruling is correct,  A and B are non-distinct areas. Which would mean the Tengu ruling is incorrect.

 

Bottom line, both ruling cannot exist at the same time

[Kanashimi]

Dunno what are you talking about distinct area and non-distinct area.

 

I remember my senpai at DN who always lectures me with "boring ruling" say this:

"Cards from hand or anywhere it is that would be Summoned to field, it is located in an area called Limbo."

 

If monster would be Summoned, and Solemn Warning and such is chained to it and destroy the monster, that monster isn't destroyed while on the field, but destroyed in what you call Limbo. So i can say this works for Xyz Material, placed in an area called Limbo.

 

So let's see Sangan and Reborn Tengu text shall we?

 

Sangan: "When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard: Add 1 monster with 1500 or less ATK from your Deck to your hand."

Reborn Tengu: "When this card is removed from the field, Special Summon 1 "Reborn Tengu" from your Deck."

 

The keyword here is "field", whereas, being an Xyz Material isn't considered as on the field, but in Limbo . . . . so any effect that has "field" in it cannot trigger.

 

As for note, field is not Limbo and vice versa, it's an unofficial term (i suppose) to call a monster/cards that doesn't located either on the field, grave, Deck, hand, or Banished Zone.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

 

 

Dunno what are you talking about distinct area and non-distinct area.

 

I remember my senpai at DN who always lectures me with "boring ruling" say this:

"Cards from hand or anywhere it is that would be Summoned to field, it is located in an area called Limbo."

 

If monster would be Summoned, and Solemn Warning and such is chained to it and destroy the monster, that monster isn't destroyed while on the field, but destroyed in what you call Limbo. So i can say this works for Xyz Material, placed in an area called Limbo.

 

So let's see Sangan and Reborn Tengu text shall we?

 

Sangan: "When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard: Add 1 monster with 1500 or less ATK from your Deck to your hand."

Reborn Tengu: "When this card is removed from the field, Special Summon 1 "Reborn Tengu" from your Deck."

 

The keyword here is "field", whereas, being an Xyz Material isn't considered as on the field, but in Limbo . . . . so any effect that has "field" in it cannot trigger.

 

As for note, field is not Limbo and vice versa, it's an unofficial term (i suppose) to call a monster/cards that doesn't located either on the field, grave, Deck, hand, or Banished Zone.

 

Tl;dr xyz material aren't in a place, so your postulate is invalid, Winter.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Limbo would still be a place though would it not. So Tengu would have to leave the field to be in limbo. 

 

Just like not solemning a card allows your opponents card to move from Limbo to the field

 

 

 

Tl;dr xyz material aren't in a place, so your postulate is invalid, Winter.

 

Only postulate was that a card cannot exist in two places at once, which remains true even with limbo since the card is neither in the hand nor the field or wherever it was summoned from

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Limbo would still be a place though would it not. So Tengu would have to leave the field to be in limbo. 

 

Just like not solemning a card allows your opponents card to move from Limbo to the field

Nope. Limbo isn't a place.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Nope. Limbo isn't a place.

So the card ceases to exist for a period then?

[Tinkerer]

Tengu has that other ruling where it doesn't spawn itself when sent back to the deck either I believe, but that's neither here nor there.

 

The way I see it, they are separate. They have to be, since Pendulums get sent to the Graveyard from a material. However, Pendulums also give another insight to this. Pendulums are only spells when in their zones and are completely treated as spells, ie. They take on a specific form that does specific things in a specific location, but act like monsters everywhere else.

 

Now, back to XYZ's. When a monster is used to XYZ summon, it isn't a monster anymore. It completely changed card types (like the aforementioned Pendulums in their zone). This type change is signified when the two monsters stack before heading to the "Overlay Network" or "Material Zone" (as I like to think of it).

 

As a material, the card cannot use effects, or possibly cannot use effects outside its "Network" (hence why they give effects to the summoned XYZ). Because they lose everything except their identity (name/card-type/level/etc.), they don't have to follow their own presets, so if they had an effect like "if this card leaves the field, banish it", because it becomes a "Material" first, it loses that restriction before going into the Network.

 

...I need to get out more...

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Tengu has that other ruling where it doesn't spawn itself when sent back to the deck either I believe, but that's neither here nor there.

 

The way I see it, they are separate. They have to be, since Pendulums get sent to the Graveyard from a material. However, Pendulums also give another insight to this. Pendulums are only spells when in their zones and are completely treated as spells, ie. They take on a specific form that does specific things in a specific location, but act like monsters everywhere else.

 

Now, back to XYZ's. When a monster is used to XYZ summon, it isn't a monster anymore. It completely changed card types (like the aforementioned Pendulums in their zone). This type change is signified when the two monsters stack before heading to the "Overlay Network" or "Material Zone" (as I like to think of it).

 

As a material, the card cannot use effects, or possibly cannot use effects outside its "Network" (hence why they give effects to the summoned XYZ). Because they lose everything except their identity (name/card-type/level/etc.), they don't have to follow their own presets, so if they had an effect like "if this card leaves the field, banish it", because it becomes a "Material" first, it loses that restriction before going into the Network.

 

...I need to get out more...

See, it is cool if that is your opinion, but the rules aren't subjective. There is no material zone. The cards aren't even cards anymore. They are not on the field, but they never left either.

 

Put simply, Xyz are weird.

[EndUser]

 

So the card ceases to exist for a period then?

It's something like being in a state of inertia rather than ceasing to exist. The Limbo term is given just to give a meaning to this gap, the "changing places but not changing places" thing.

Tinkerer gave a decent explanation to this. (Not accurate, but decent). If anything, just accept that "Konami ruled it this way, so bear with it".

 

(Everything is in theory just to understand how things work. If, let's say, there was no Adam and Eve and the apple and the fall, how would the ancient people understand the non-understandable?)

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 The cards aren't even cards anymore. 

that creates problems with the 40 card rule

 

You basically have to go with monster can't activate as material, but that has problems too as seen below

 

Tengu has that other ruling where it doesn't spawn itself when sent back to the deck either I believe, but that's neither here nor there.

 

The way I see it, they are separate. They have to be, since Pendulums get sent to the Graveyard from a material. However, Pendulums also give another insight to this. Pendulums are only spells when in their zones and are completely treated as spells, ie. They take on a specific form that does specific things in a specific location, but act like monsters everywhere else.

 

Now, back to XYZ's. When a monster is used to XYZ summon, it isn't a monster anymore. It completely changed card types (like the aforementioned Pendulums in their zone). This type change is signified when the two monsters stack before heading to the "Overlay Network" or "Material Zone" (as I like to think of it).

 

As a material, the card cannot use effects, or possibly cannot use effects outside its "Network" (hence why they give effects to the summoned XYZ). Because they lose everything except their identity (name/card-type/level/etc.), they don't have to follow their own presets, so if they had an effect like "if this card leaves the field, banish it", because it becomes a "Material" first, it loses that restriction before going into the Network.

 

...I need to get out more...

Star Seraph Stick kinda invalidates this

 

 

 

 

It's something like being in a state of inertia rather than ceasing to exist. The Limbo term is given just to give a meaning to this gap, the "changing places but not changing places" thing.

Tinkerer gave a decent explanation to this. (Not accurate, but decent). If anything, just accept that "Konami ruled it this way, so bear with it".

 

(Everything is in theory just to understand how things work. If, let's say, there was no Adam and Eve and the apple and the fall, how would the ancient people understand the non-understandable?)

 

Point being Konami has no forsight in their R/D and this was a half-assed attempt to deal with the growing problem of TGU Sangan detach and overlay LPD for Atum/Gaia/M7 and get REDMD on that card's destruction

[Draconus297]

I've been making this argument forever, and it's not working.

 

Xyz monsters violate the law of conservation of mass, from what I've put together.

[Tinkerer]

See, it is cool if that is your opinion, but the rules aren't subjective. There is no material zone. The cards aren't even cards anymore. They are not on the field, but they never left either.

Put simply, Xyz are weird.

I should have said "IMO" before starting then, heh.

 

In any case as materials, the cards still are cards, they have to be, otherwise XYZ's like the Burgessoma ones couldn't work because it has a condition that references the materials as traps.

 

In any case, my point in that spiel wasn't to make up stuff, but to explain how it would work given Winter's premise.

[UltimateIRS]

Star Seraph Stick kinda invalidates this

 

Stick bestows an effect the moment it's used as a Material, it doesn't activate an effect itself.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I've been making this argument forever, and it's not working.

Xyz monsters violate the law of conservation of mass, from what I've put together.

E=mc^2 jabroni.

 

Calling intentional rulings lack of foresight is a tad silly, no? They knew what the mechanic would imply. Hell, cards are balanced around it. Just because you don't like how something works doesn't mean it is stupid.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

See, it is cool if that is your opinion, but the rules aren't subjective. There is no material zone. The cards aren't even cards anymore. They are not on the field, but they never left either.

 

I should have said "IMO" before starting then, heh.

 

In any case as materials, the cards still are cards, they have to be, otherwise XYZ's like the Burgessoma ones couldn't work because it has a condition that references the materials as traps.

 

In any case, my point in that spiel wasn't to make up stuff, but to explain how it would work given Winter's premise.

They have to be able to trigger effects as well other wise the Star Seraphs wouldn't work

 

Card violate conservation of mass like Drac so cunningly stated, it's just an asspull from Konami to work around the fact they made awful design flaw cards like LPD Sangan and TGU

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Stick bestows an effect the moment it's used as a Material, it doesn't activate an effect itself.

It's classified as a trigger effect, which is something limited to only monster cards. It does activate since you can solemn Notice stick effect

E=mc^2 b****.

 

Calling intentional rulings lack of foresight is a tad silly, no? They knew what the mechanic would imply. Hell, cards are balanced around it. Just because you don't like how something works doesn't mean it is stupid.

No.

 

They made the ruling half-way through the formats because of the LPD and Sangan problem. The ruling was intentional because they had no foresight. There's not balanced about not being able to kill atum because you know the LPD under it would bring out REDMD and start the sheet all over. 

[UltimateIRS]

It's classified as a trigger effect, which is something limited to only monster cards. It does activate since you can solemn Notice stick effect

 

It is a Trigger effect, but it is activated by the Xyz Monster, not by Stick.

[Tinkerer]

They have to be able to trigger effects as well other wise the Star Seraphs wouldn't work

 

I addressed this. I said it's possible that the cards do activate their effects, but the effects cannot activate outside the "Network", hence why stuff like Stick, Scales, Star Drawing, Bachibachibachi, Gagaga Girl, etc. have to give effects to the XYZ so that it can activate the effect that works on the field.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I addressed this. I said it's possible that the cards do activate their effects, but the effects cannot activate outside the "Network", hence why stuff like Stick, Scales, Star Drawing, Bachibachibachi, Gagaga Girl, etc. have to give effects to the XYZ so that it can activate the effect that works on the field.

Dude, Cold Sleeper explained it, this is not how it works at all.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It is a Trigger effect, but it is activated by the Xyz Monster, not by Stick.

Oh right, missed that haha. So the unclassified effect is the one that gives the monster the effect to pop 1.

[UltimateIRS]

Dude, Cold Sleeper explained it, this is not how it works at all.

Oh hey I have a sig now.

[Tinkerer]

Dude, Cold Sleeper explained it, this is not how it works at all.

...which is why I said that was a possibility. I never said I agreed.

 

As it is, I still stand by what I was saying originally: the cards become materials that cannot actually do anything but retain their original identity so that cards that require specifically named cards/types/attributes can still work.

 

(That said, I'm typing this via phone, so I can't tell if someone answered already or not. I'm just throwing my all two-uncommon-cents in)

[Mugendramon]

So the card ceases to exist for a period then?

It ceases to exist as a card, yes. It is now an arbitrary unit, an Xyz Material.

[evilfusion]

Do note that the Xyz Materials that activate when used as Material usually state that the effect is given to the Xyz Monster itself.

 

Also, people are claiming that they changed the ruling partway through the format. Yes and no. The TCG supplied a ruling on how the mechanic worked because for whatever reason, they did not have this information given to them by their OCG counterparts beforehand. This was later corrected. Xyz Material are not on the Field. The OCG always was using this rule, the TCG messed it up for a period of time.

 

The best way to think about the whole "But stuff should activate" is that, similar to returning cards to the Deck, it won't activate unless it explicitly says it's supposed to (like Serpentine Princess). It went to an area that doesn't normally allow effects to activate from, as opposed to the hand, Graveyard, or banish zone (with the Extra Deck also allowed at times).

[Toffee.]

If Materials still counted as being on the field.... Nobody in there right mind would play Burgesstomas.