[First try] Water-Pulse Dragon

[Kanechi]

Hello people ! :D

 

Here's a random card I've made recently. Since I wanted it to look as "official" as possible, I posted it in this section. Still, I dunno if this is the best section for it ; tell me what you think about it, if there is mistakes, if it don't follow the rules or whatever else (since I'm new on this forum, even tho I read the major threads of this section) :

 

  

 

 

 

Water Pulse Dragon - Water

Rank 4

 

[Dragon / Xyz / Effect]

 

2 Level 4 monsters

If this card is Xyz Summoned: Target 1 face-up card your opponent controls; destroy that target. Once per turn: You can detach 1 Xyz Material from this card, then target 1 Set Spell/Trap Card your opponent controls; shuffle it into the Deck.

 

ATK/ 1700 DEF/ 1200

 

• What did I want to do ?

 

Well, I wanted to make a "basic" Xyz card as Silent Honor ARK or Dark Rebellion Xyz Dragon. I wanted it to have some usefull effects but with not-so-high ATK and DEF, so people would run it in order to clean the field a bit.

 

Note: CLDL stands for Corrupted Legacy of the Doomed Lord - Yeah, I know, I didn't have any other idea, and since I'm French, my English is still pretty standard... Sorry for that c:

 

EDIT : Experimental try !

 

 

 

Water Pulse Dragon - Water

Rank 4

 

[Dragon / Xyz / Effect]

 

2 Level 4 monsters

Once per turn, during your opponent's Main Phase 1: You can detach 1 Xyz Material from this card, then target 1 Set Spell/Trap Card your opponent controls; shuffle it into the Deck. If this card has at least 1 Xyz Material: Neither player can set Spell/Trap Card during either player's Main Phase 2. If this card has no Xyz Material: Destroy it.

 

ATK/ 1700 DEF/ 1200

 

Original Picture : [spoiler]

 

Thanks for your replies !  :Snoop Dogg: (what a funny smiley, so snoop wow, very dog)

[shadowsapex]

Hm. It's first effect - one for one removal - is already done better by Castel, so you're really running it for both removal effects in conjunction with each other, taking out backrow in order to push for damage or a win. It'd be useable, and though not your first choice, still a very good card to run, if you increased the ATK a bit to help with that.

As for the grammer, to target -> then target; Trap/Spell -> Spell/Trap. If your card were any longer, I'd be asking you to post the effect underneath the image. It makes grammer fixes easier and is just a good general rule of thumb

Very good for a first attempt.

[Kanechi]

Hey !

I've made some changes according to your comment since its ATK was a bit low, I also made some grammar correction. 

Still, I downed its DEF slightly in order to balance the overall stats !

 

Thank you for you reply ! :D

 

Update :

- Text-Format card description added !

- ATK changed from 1700 to 2200.

- DEF changed from 1300 to 700.

- Grammar fixed.

[Azuriena]

Hm. It's first effect - one for one removal - is already done better by Castel, so you're really running it for both removal effects in conjunction with each other, taking out backrow in order to push for damage or a win. It'd be useable, and though not your first choice, still a very good card to run, if you increased the ATK a bit to help with that.

As for the grammer, to target -> then target; Trap/Spell -> Spell/Trap. If your card were any longer, I'd be asking you to post the effect underneath the image. It makes grammer fixes easier and is just a good general rule of thumb

Very good for a first attempt.

 

No, the card did not need an ATK increase. It did not need to be better. As it was, the card already filled in the missing generic Rank 4 niche of removing face-down Spell/Trap Cards that Castel cannot remove while breaking even, except it didn't even break even and removes an additional card when it is Xyz Summoned, a la Lightning Chidori. (Like Chidori, it also only detaches 1 Xyz Material to activate its effect.) The Rank 4 toolbox that can be accessed generically did not need more versatility, so rather than give the card more ATK, a more restrictive Xyz Material requirement (e.g. "2 Level 4 WATER monsters"; like Chidori, although I understand that OP wants to design a "'basic'" Xyz Monster), or even an ATK decrease, would've been more appropriate.

 

2 Level 4 monsters

When If this card is Xyz Summoned: Target 1 face-up card your opponent controls; destroy that target.

Once per turn: You can detach 1 Xyz Material from this card, then target 1 Set Spell/Trap Card your opponents opponent controls; shuffle them it into the Deck.

 

Triggered effects whose activations are mandatory upon being triggered say "if" and not "when" because they cannot miss timing.

[Kanechi]

Hello !

Thank you for your replies :D

I'll apply some changes to the text grammarly-speaking and maybe down its ATK a bit (like 2000-1900). I'll do all that this evening.

[Azuriena]

Thank you for your replies :D

I'll apply some changes to the text grammarly-speaking and maybe down its ATK a bit (like 2000-1900). I'll do all that this evening.

 

Np. ^^;

 

Reducing its ATK from 2200 to 1900 is still increasing it from 1700 to 1900. (DEF is largely irrelevant.) Water-Pulse Dragon doesn't need to be better than its original rendition. Rather, it needs restrictions.

[shadowsapex]

I don't feel it's that powerful. Spinning a face-down is way different than spinning a face-up, and the number of materials it has to detach is largely inconsequential. You certainly can't compare this to Chidori, whose spin effect really makes it deserve the attribute restriction. Restricting this card to WATER will only ensure that no one uses it.

[Azuriena]

I don't feel it's that powerful. Spinning a face-down is way different than spinning a face-up, and the number of materials it has to detach is largely inconsequential. You certainly can't compare this to Chidori, whose spin effect really makes it deserve the attribute restriction. Restricting this card to WATER will only ensure that no one uses it.

 

You are missing the point of my post. The point of my post was not "this card is as good as Castel", "this card outclasses Castel", or "this card's playability is comparable to Castel's", regardless of how true any of these statements are. The same goes for Lightning Chidori.

 

You don't compare this card to Castel and then come to the conclusion of because it's weaker than Castel, it is an acceptable card design. Instead, you should consider this card within the card pool in which Castel also exists. The Rank 4 toolbox does not need a generic answer to Set Spell/Trap Cards more than Diamond Dire Wolf can provide. That was the point of my post, something that you haven't responded to. (This is in addition to the fact that the card does more than break even, just on the turn it enters the field.)

 

(The WATER restriction was only an example, so I won't argue for or against its viability. I've already noted OP's goal to design the card as a generic.)

[Kanechi]

Hi hi !

 

Well, based on your replies, I'll set the ATK to 1700. I wouldn't like to down it too much tho, since I think it can be down easily by your opponent with 1700 ATK. Also I wouldn't like to give it more restrictions since as you noticed it and said it before, I would like it to stay a generic Xyz card.

 

Does a limitation of 1 per Deck (well that's symbolic ofc) would make it balanced ?

 

Also thanks for your replies, I've changed the grammar ! I hope that it will seems fine now o/ 

 

EDIT: If I want to make and post another card, do I have to (and can I) make another Thread on this section ?

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

EDIT: If I want to make and post another card, do I have to (and can I) make another Thread on this section ?

 

If you want to, you can make another thread. Or you can just edit this one with the new card, but then I'll have to move it to Multiples. 

 

---

As for the card, the stats are a bit on the low end, but otherwise it should be fine, considering it's a generic Chidori for most intents/purposes. You could buff its ATK to 1800 without too much issue. I know I saw the previous version, and while I understand you want to make this worth a slot in the generic R4 pool, it did outclass Castel in bouncing roles. 

 

Otherwise, you did fine here. 

[shadowsapex]

@Kanechi You wouldn't ever use two in a normal deck. And if you're making a completely separate card, yeah, new thread.

 

@Azuriena Is there a particular problem with adding this to the Rank 4 toolbox? Is it solely because you don't want Rank 4 to get new things, since they have so much already? Or will it break something to give Rank 4 decks the power to take out backrow? I don't think there's a problem with that, even though having the first removal effect as well is kinda powerful.

Its stats being low is a problem because taking out backrow means it's supposed to be proactive, and low stats won't allow it to do that.

[Black D'Sceptyr]

Goodness, the intensity of the reviews here. It's like Too Talli Tarian all over again. I LIVE to see such passionate discussion. (This means its good, folks. Carry on.) 

 

Anyways, the card. 

 

This allows for some amazing plays. And I'm sure the Castel and Lightning Chidori references have been made and re-made, so let me go for something different. This card here-Water Pulse Dragon- is like Water Pulse Dragon. Comes to the field and does something most monsters have to waste a Material or get wasted themselves to to-pop face-ups. Then it handles back row should it survive. Stop it when it's Summoned, or it won't be stopped at all. 

 

My take on this, for its ATK, its abilities and its splashability (I just giggled so immaturely at that) is that it's good. Great, actually, considering this is your first card. No errors, no brute overreaching ability that normally makes me pull out my hair, nothing OP like that. Just a simple Xyz that can work as a field clearer and do it well. It works with its brevity. And I'm giving it a 9.7 out of 10 for that alone. 

 

Should you wish to improve on the design though, I guess I'm obliged to help you along, you being so receptive to feedback and all. (The 2nd greatest thing I've laid my eyes on today, of course.)

 

For its ATK and effect, Water Pulse Dragon gets it DONE. But I'm thinking of the bigger picture here. The thing you want to handle doesn't necessarily have to do with ATK, DEF, versatility. No need to restrict this card in those regards. What WPD needs in that second effect-the one that spins face-downs-is speed. Really, unless it's a Spell or Trap, knocking out back row with a monster on the field during your turn is usually (I SAID USUALLY THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS) something done a turn too late.

 

 

If you want real power under the hood? I humbly request having that effect spin back row (on both sides, I'll explain why later) only during your opponent's turn. That way, it still has the hard, answer me destruction, while also coming complete with something that ensures your opponent doesn't just yawn and trigger the card in response (which they likely will, ruining Water Pulse's versatility. And to guarantee they don't go the "rush everything, run over Pulse, setback roww, pass" make it so that no cards can be set after the effect is activated.

 

Something that demands a shift in strategy is almost guaranteed to have a tier bump. Reacting to your opponent's actions is one thing, especially if you're going first. Making sure something doesn't occur upon spinning stuff-even if it's yours-can help to screw up a combo strate4fgy good. Especially that miasmic Card of Demise combo that rewards bad play. With this in a Side Deck for such an occasion, the second they've set their initial back row in one go and drop their +3 to get more (because, see, actually improving the deck strategy's too haaaaaaaaard, let's just have more Traps to push through like a brick with a cheese grater!) this destroys that overbuilt wall,, and lessens their fortification by 1 in the process. 

 

Sorry for the rant on the non-Infinity Ward-affliated CoD. But that's still one of many things that modified effect can answer, if you so consider it. Regardless, that card is great, and I look forward to seeing more like it from you in the future. Welcome to YCM, fella.

[Kanechi]

Woooow, thank you a lot for your replies everyone :D

 

If you want real power under the hood? I humbly request having that effect spin back row (on both sides, I'll explain why later) only during your opponent's turn. That way, it still has the hard, answer me destruction, while also coming complete with something that ensures your opponent doesn't just yawn and trigger the card in response (which they likely will, ruining Water Pulse's versatility. And to guarantee they don't go the "rush everything, run over Pulse, setback roww, pass" make it so that no cards can be set after the effect is activated.

 

 

 

If I read you correctly, I should change its effect so it would become something like "During either player's turn [blablabla] you can suffle 1 Set Spell/Trap card on the field into the Deck", right ? (well I would correct the grammar ofc) If it's that so, wouldn't it be too op ? If I do that, shouldn't I remove the destruction on the Summoning maybe ?

 

I'm very happy to see how my first card is reviewed by all of you, I hope I could do better next time :3

 

I'll consider all of your answer and see what I could do to its effects. I'll probably do something or give another answer this evening since I'm still in College .. xD

[Azuriena]

Well, based on your replies, I'll set the ATK to 1700. I wouldn't like to down it too much tho, since I think it can be down easily by your opponent with 1700 ATK. Also I wouldn't like to give it more restrictions since as you noticed it and said it before, I would like it to stay a generic Xyz card.

 

Does a limitation of 1 per Deck (well that's symbolic ofc) would make it balanced ?

 

It doesn't matter if it gets run over the following turn, since it has already served its purpose. Its ATK will decide what it can run over (i.e. act as further removal) the turn it enters the field.

 

It likely won't be run at more than 1. Castel and similar cards aren't run at more than 1 in the vast majority of Decks either. (Although Castel has a hard OPT.)

 

As for the card, the stats are a bit on the low end, but otherwise it should be fine, considering it's a generic Chidori for most intents/purposes. You could buff its ATK to 1800 without too much issue. I know I saw the previous version, and while I understand you want to make this worth a slot in the generic R4 pool, it did outclass Castel in bouncing roles.

 

The difference between 1700 and 1800 is largely inconsequential.

 

It doesn't outclass Castel in bouncing (spinning?) roles. It fills a different niche in that role, and exists additionally to Castel. It produces more card advantage than Castel, though.

 

Is there a particular problem with adding this to the Rank 4 toolbox? Is it solely because you don't want Rank 4 to get new things, since they have so much already? Or will it break something to give Rank 4 decks the power to take out backrow? I don't think there's a problem with that, even though having the first removal effect as well is kinda powerful.

Its stats being low is a problem because taking out backrow means it's supposed to be proactive, and low stats won't allow it to do that.

 

The Rank 4 toolbox can already take out backrow. This is about doing it not only breaking even, but at a plus.

 

Would the addition of this card break the game? No, and I never implied so, but that doesn't make it good design.

 

I didn't address anything about its stats in my last post. And just like the Summoning restriction, the stat lowering example in my original post was only an example. I won't argue for or against its viability, or even the validity of the proactiveness claim, but it's not like this card losing out on the proactive front is a bad thing anyway considering its effects.

[shadowsapex]

So, giving rank 4 something new - and buffing it enough so that most decks might use it - is bad design? That's exactly how I'd go about designing a new rank 4 generic, so could you explain what's bad about it?

Nooo, don't give it a quick effect. That allows it to deal with backrow the turn it's set without the opponent getting to respond - way too much power in the hands of a generic rk4. You're even suggesting that it stop all other sets the same turn. That's completely devastating. It'd shift the face of the entire metagame. Maybe render backrow obselete. This card's effect doesn't need a power boost, not in that direction.

It is true that usually, when summoning this card to deal with backrow, it'll just meet with a Solemn to the face. And even if it doesn't, there's not much of a chance it'll hit Drowning Mirror Force out of 5 backrow. But that's just the trade off you'll have to make, and the first effect combined with the fact that you'll have to get through that backrow somehow makes it worth it.

 

Personally, I think CoD is great design. When you see Konami make things like Lawnmowing and Molmorat, you've really got to appreciate a card that successfully gives rogue decks a chance against meta decks without breaking anything in the process.

Seriously look up the 2 cards I mentioned. Konami's been screwing up everything lately. Count your blessings.

[Black D'Sceptyr]

If I read you correctly, I should change its effect so it would become something like "During either player's turn [blablabla] you can suffle 1 Set Spell/Trap card on the field into the Deck", right ? (well I would correct the grammar ofc) If it's that so, wouldn't it be too op ? If I do that, shouldn't I remove the destruction on the Summoning maybe ?

 

I'm very happy to see how my first card is reviewed by all of you, I hope I could do better next time :3

 

I'll consider all of your answer and see what I could do to its effects. I'll probably do something or give another answer this evening since I'm still in College .. xD

 

My apologies. My take on the improved tinkered effect was that it ONLY activate on the opponent's turn, during the Main Phase 1, and keep cards from being Set during either player's Main Phase 2. Keep everyone from circumventing Water Pulse, while allowing it to certifiably strike at a niche of dueling that many drawing cards serve to abuse. Metalfoes (withing reason) and Card of Demise (without) both qualify.

[Azuriena]

So, giving rank 4 something new - and buffing it enough so that most decks might use it - is bad design? That's exactly how I'd go about designing a new rank 4 generic, so could you explain what's bad about it?

 

I have already explained this. But I'll elaborate.

 

The Rank 4 toolbox that can be accessed generically is already incredibly versatile, not just in the field of targeted removal, but especially in the field of targeted removal. Castel deals with any face-up card, breaking even. Diamond Dire Wolf deals with any face-down card (and cards like Eternal Soul) at a minus. Silent Honor ARK deals with Extra Deck monsters that have "leaves the field" effects, breaking even. (Castel or Maestroke can also flip them face-down before removing them with another card effect.) The Rank 4 toolbox already has so many options, and so many targeted removal options, that any more, especially any that deals with up to two cards at a plus, should not exist.

 

Water-Pulse Dragon's existence as a card that's both easily (Rank 4) and generically accessed means that any Deck that can afford to give it a slot (see: a lot) will do so, changing the game significantly for as long as the card exists (i.e. the rest of the game's life). (The keyword is significantly.) And this is only comparing it to other Rank 4 methods of targeted removal. Examples: Abyss Dweller, Daigusto Emeral, Gagaga Cowboy, to an extent, Rhapsody in Berserk, to an extent, Utopia the Lightning, and in the OCG, Outer Entity Azathoth. Because the Rank 4 toolbox that can be accessed generically is already so incredibly versatile, that is, because fielding 2 Level 4 monsters already gives you so many options, you need to be incredibly careful when you design one. For one, don't design one that makes you go plus; that's just making it harder for yourself. And you may find it easier to design one that isn't targeted removal because the toolbox already has so many targeted removal options—don't make it so that the toolbox has an answer to every kind of card without going minus (and especially not by going plus), by designing a card that covers one of the few holes the toolbox has left. 

 

A good design will take into account that the toolbox already has all the targeted removal options it needs and so determine that making it any better is a bad idea. It will take into account that outside of targeted removal, the toolbox still has a ton of utility and should not be something with the impact of Abyss Dweller or Utopia the Lightning, rather something like Rhapsody in Berserk. Or something that can be accessed generically but can be favoured differently by different Decks (e.g. Diamond Dire Wolf in ABC, which can pump out large numbers of Rank 4s and is weak to Summon negation, and Nekroz, with its Ritual Spells' Graveyard effects' activation conditions, compared to Decks that can use the Typing, compared to most other Decks; although, you would design a utility card and not a targeted removal one).

 

When it's a card that will be commonly used for as long as it and the game exists, you need to take extreme care with its design, taking into account the card pool that it will exist alongside.

[Kanechi]

I tried another version of Water Pulse Dragon that I put in my edited main post, below the first version. This one is experimental I would say, and based on Black D'Sceptyr idea (If I understood what you said c:).

Since I'm still newbie on this Xyz Meta (I stopped in the middle of the Synchro Era and came back 3-4 months ago, still I'm a casual player) ; I can't say which one had the best "idea" I would said about balancing this card. (Tho I'll work hard in order to have some more opinions). Tho I didn't know it would be so hard to balance this one because It was supposed to be a simple "basic" one :D

 

I really like to see how different are the points of view and I want to make more cards in order to train more and more my "skills" as a fake card creator. 

A new card with a new thread is coming soon, probably tonight or tomorrow (Europe \o/) - I have the picture, its name, its type, but I still need to write, rewrite and work on the effect as this one is pretty hard to balance because it will probably be a new tool (monster) for an existing Archetype. 

 

EDIT : Original picture sent in the main post.