Justice Democrats

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

While true, it doesn't change the fact that refusing a customer's buisness based on their sexuality is as discriminatory as refusing buisness based on race. Moving any policy back in that kind of direction is grounds for concern.

Also something something try to stay on topic.

No shirt, no shoes, no service laws have been on the books for a while

 

Also let capitalism fix it, if one store does not Procter LGB couples and another does. The later will be at an advtage from a market standpoint and out compete the former

 

Problem with Racial segregation in south was that it was lawfully required to be segregated. That's not the case here.

[Phantom Roxas]

I'd like to believe that the GOP is easing up on LGBT issues but a lot of them still have their heads up their asses about it.  

 

You can retain your own traditional or religious beliefs without pushing for discrimination of people who don't. 

 

OT:  Both parties need reform but as others said the guy from the Young Turks is not the man do it. 

 

Agreed. There are people in the GOP who are easing up, but not enough for me to be comfortable with the party as a whole.

 

I could trust groups like Our Revolution and Brand New Congress. Sure, that's mostly because it's staffers from Bernie Sanders' campaign, but these are people who have already been involved. I know a couple people who are just now trying to get into office, which is fine. Trying to get the Democratic Party to reform? Cool. But trying to create a new "wing" of the party splits the party in half. That's not reforming the party, that's explicitly dividing it.

 

I haven't paid too much attention to Young Turks, but Jesse gave me enough of an idea. I think my issue is more that there's a divide at all rather than Cenk Uygur being the one leading it.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

Doesn't seem like the country is thrilled about this justice democrat deal

 

Also of note, Iowa and Ohio, two other solid Democratic states in 2008 and 2009, were categorized as lean Republican for the first time in the 2016 data. Iowa and Ohio are typically listed among key battleground states in presidential elections. Obama won both states in 2008 and 2012, but Trump won each by roughly nine percentage points in 2016.

 

It's gonna boil down to, are you people willing to listen to people like me, or is doubling down on Vermont and MA the goal.

 

 

For example, when Americans see that a Lesbian couple sued a baker for 200k and forced them out of business for politely refusing to make a cake. The sympathy is not on the Lesbian couple's side. 

[BANZAI!!!!]

 

Doesn't seem like the country is thrilled about this justice democrat deal

 

Also of note, Iowa and Ohio, two other solid Democratic states in 2008 and 2009, were categorized as lean Republican for the first time in the 2016 data. Iowa and Ohio are typically listed among key battleground states in presidential elections. Obama won both states in 2008 and 2012, but Trump won each by roughly nine percentage points in 2016.

 

It's gonna boil down to, are you people willing to listen to people like me, or is doubling down on Vermont and MA the goal

Worth noting that the above chart is 16/50 states, and doesn't provide numerical data.

 

Also no, i'll keep to my own views thanks.

 

I can edit sheet too!: Also worth noting that trump took office in large part due to a divided demorcatic party, which the subject of this thread ostensibly aims to correct.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Worth noting that the above chart is 16/50 states, and doesn't provide numerical data.

 

Also no, i'll keep to my own views thanks.

I linked to the entire list of states, it's even worse when you look at that.

 

You can, but you're gonna be losing seats and states as you have been doing over the last 8 years.

 

You're just gonna make sure people like me never vote dem again.

 

I voted for 3 Dems and 2 republicans in 2016. When Senator Kaine comes up for re-election next year, I'm not sure how inclined I am to vote for him after he charge leftward. And I'm not alone.

 

Edit: It's not about you throwing out your views, it's about you being willing to listen where we're coming from. Cenk and others are not. 

[BANZAI!!!!]

I linked to the entire list of states, it's even worse when you look at that.

 

You can, but you're gonna be losing seats and states as you have been doing over the last 8 years.

 

You're just gonna make sure people like me never vote dem again.

 

I voted for 3 Dems and 2 republicans in 2016. When Senator Kaine comes up for re-election next year, I'm not sure how inclined I am to vote for him after he charge leftward. And I'm not alone.

 

Edit: It's not about you throwing out your views, it's about you being willing to listen where we're coming from. Cenk and others are not.

 

This is a problem the entire country has. People like me don't feel welcome on the other side of the party line either, and oftentimes our opinions on fiscal matters become irrelevant when republicans pander to opinions we find judgemental or bigoted.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Most of the right cares more about abortion than LGBT. A halfway compromise can be made. But putting Gov funding for abortion on the dnc platform (and conversion therapy on the RNC) isn't helping either side

[Sunshine Jesse]

Let's analyze the results of DNC primary deeper to make sure we're getting the correct takeaway from the graph.

 

source

 

Arkansas went to Hillary

West Virginia went to Bernie

Michigan went to Bernie

Minnesota went to Bernie

Maine went to Bernie 

Pennsylvania went to Hillary

Wisconsin went to Bernie

Tennessee went to Hillary

Indiana went to Bernie

Virginia went to Hillary

Florida went to Hillary 

Montana went to Bernie

Kansas went to Bernie

North Dakota went to Bernie

South Dakota went to Hillary

South Carolina went to Hillary

 

Bernie won those states in question 9-7, which is over half of them.

 

That means over half the states that went from Democrat to Neutral/Republican preferred Bernie over Hillary.

 

Among the states that now lean heavily Republican, it's 3-3 split between the two.

Among the states that now lean slightly Republican, it's 2-1 in favor of Bernie.

Among the states that are now toss-ups, it's 4-3 in favor of Bernie.

 

What's the takeaway from this?

 

It seems to heavily imply that the problem is not that the Democratic party leans too far left now. It clearly doesn't.

 

The takeaway is that these states seem to (correctly) believe that the Democratic party abandoned them and their interests, irrespective of whether or not they lean too far left or right.

 

There is significant overlap between the states that Bernie won and the states that swung Trump, too.

 

The answer is less about doubling down. It's about appealing to people's interests and talking about their problems. Trump did this in the places that counted. Clinton didn't. The Democrats in general have failed to do so ever since Obama won.

 

That's why Trump won and the Republicans are ahead- the Democrats have, in every respect, failed us. So they turned to the opposition out of a sense of betrayal.

 

It has nothing to do with left or right, although most polls, whether you choose to trust them or not, show a general lean towards progressive policies with the exception of abortion (there's a generational divide in this, though, moreso than most issues) and the death penalty.

 

It's all about making people feel like you care about them, which Clinton utterly failed to do on every front. And she still won the popular vote, because fear is a powerful tool (that also worked in Trump's favor, mind).

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Let's analyze the results of DNC primary deeper to make sure we're getting the correct takeaway from the graph.

 

source

 

Arkansas went to Hillary

West Virginia went to Bernie

Michigan went to Bernie

Minnesota went to Bernie

Maine went to Bernie 

Pennsylvania went to Hillary

Wisconsin went to Bernie

Tennessee went to Hillary

Indiana went to Bernie

Virginia went to Hillary

Florida went to Hillary 

Montana went to Bernie

Kansas went to Bernie

North Dakota went to Bernie

South Dakota went to Hillary

South Carolina went to Hillary

 

Bernie won those states in question 9-7, which is over half of them.

 

That means over half the states that went from Democrat to Neutral/Republican preferred Bernie over Hillary.

 

Among the states that now lean heavily Republican, it's 3-3 split between the two.

Among the states that now lean slightly Republican, it's 2-1 in favor of Bernie.

Among the states that are now toss-ups, it's 4-3 in favor of Bernie.

 

What's the takeaway from this?

 

It seems to heavily imply that the problem is not that the Democratic party leans too far left now. It clearly doesn't.

 

The takeaway is that these states seem to (correctly) believe that the Democratic party abandoned them and their interests, irrespective of whether or not they lean too far left or right.

 

There is significant overlap between the states that Bernie won and the states that swung Trump, too.

 

The answer is less about doubling down. It's about appealing to people's interests and talking about their problems. Trump did this in the places that counted. Clinton didn't. The Democrats in general have failed to do so ever since Obama won.

 

That's why Trump won and the Republicans are ahead- the Democrats have, in every respect, failed us. So they turned to the opposition out of a sense of betrayal.

 

It has nothing to do with left or right, although most polls, whether you choose to trust them or not, show a general lean towards progressive policies with the exception of abortion (there's a generational divide in this, though, moreso than most issues) and the death penalty.

 

It's all about making people feel like you care about them, which Clinton utterly failed to do on every front. And she still won the popular vote, because fear is a powerful tool (that also worked in Trump's favor, mind).

Single payer was dealt a stunning defeat this election too. People don't care for this cold war rehash with Russia. Environment is important, but people care more about short term jobs and finance (this may be "uneducated" but that's how it is)

 

The democrats aren't being pragmatic, and to fight a guy like Trump who goes with the wind, you need to be. 

 

I will give you certain progressive views like LGBT rights and MW have shown bipartiasn support

[Sunshine Jesse]

The people wanted populism so they picked the populist candidate. The Democrats wanted pragmatism so they picked the "pragmatic" candidate, at the time. It was the wrong decision.

 

Pragmatism has failed utterly this election and has only been used as a tool to grasp on to what little power people have left. It's not a winning strategy.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The people wanted populism so they picked the populist candidate. The Democrats wanted pragmatism so they picked the "pragmatic" candidate, at the time. It was the wrong decision.

 

Pragmatism has failed utterly this election and has only been used as a tool to grasp on to what little power people have left. It's not a winning strategy.

Uh, Trump IS a pragmatist 

 

prag·ma·tism ˈpraɡməˌtizəm/ noun 1. a pragmatic attitude or policy. "ideology was tempered with pragmatism" 2. PHILOSOPHY an approach that assesses the truth of meaning of theories or beliefs in terms of the success of their practical application.

 

ie. Why fighting LGBT is a lost cause (close to 70% of Americans and the majority of his voters approve of LGB rights at the very least), but abortion is not (statistically even split among Americans on pro-life/pro-choice). 

 

Fight what you can win

[Sunshine Jesse]

So you think he picked the positions because they were the winning ones, irrespective of what he actually believed?

 

Interesting

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

So you think he picked the positions because they were the winning ones, irrespective of what he actually believed?

 

Interesting

He's been pro-choice for his entire life, and now he's suddenly more pro-life than me? Maybe he changed after 60 years, but I doubt it. He's realized that Millennials have much higher reservations about it, and he's making inroads. 

[Sunshine Jesse]

You're actually admitting that he campaigned for causes he didn't believe in to get votes.

 

Amazing

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You're actually admitting that he campaigned for causes he didn't believe in to get votes.

 

Amazing

I don't give a flying funk what he personally believes in as long as he supports it. Which it seems like he's gonna do with the SCOTUS pick.

 

I'm skeptical he's really pro-life given he was pro-choice his whole life, then again I did switch too rather rapidly once life hit me

[Phantom Roxas]

Jesse, Winter, please cycle this back to being about what the Democrats are doing, otherwise it looks like the conversation is focusing exclusively on Trump's campaign, which is not what this thread is meant for.