iAmNateXero Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 What is there to discuss? Limited is good enough. Spell/Trap destruction without a cost. Easily abused if allowed even 2. Yet not exactly powerful enough to become banned. Since the card is easily negated. ITT: Counterability=Balance. Does any body but me see a trend in the discussions lately? Yes' date=' that you seem to think all counterability is the same level. If a card's own effect allows it to be stopped, then that is a way of balancing it(Spirit Reaper). If it doesn't, there is no counterability bonus.[/quote'] And the trend continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 What is there to discuss? Limited is good enough. Spell/Trap destruction without a cost. Easily abused if allowed even 2. Yet not exactly powerful enough to become banned. Since the card is easily negated. ITT: Counterability=Balance. Does any body but me see a trend in the discussions lately? Yes' date=' that you seem to think all counterability is the same level. If a card's own effect allows it to be stopped, then that is a way of balancing it(Spirit Reaper). If it doesn't, there is no counterability bonus.[/quote'] And the trend continues.Yep, your empty statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Judgment Dragon Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Counterability doesnt balance a card. Jeez. If that were the case, every card that can be Countered should be at 3 and every card that can't be countered (Super Polymerization, Amplifier, etc) should be banned. Chaos Emperor Dragon can be countered but that doesnt mean it should be at anything other than 0. A piece of advice to anyone arguing a card's placement on a banlist. Don't use counterability in your arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Max Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Another reason to keep HS at 1 would be the fact that it's a Normal Spell. It would have been banned LONG ago if it was Quick Play. Also what is this I hear about people purposely Setting Heavy Storm? Is it a lure or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolfjedi Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Normally I would say Forbidden but then Burn Decks would Thrive. Tough call. I'd say keep it at 1.This would definitely not help Burn decks if it was removed. If it did' date=' it wouldn't push them past Tele-DAD through some miracle. It's Dark Hole for spell and traps. It discourages your opponent from playing well as, like Gorz, they can't be certain when they'll be hit. They already made a fair version of this card, it's called Giant Trunade. Ban.[/quote'] trunade is at 1 as well remember? it's because you get your stuff back as well as on your turn, allowing you to setup again. plus, use it with continuing spells and tempest, and trunade becomes a monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Trunade is less of a mindless force though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 There was never a time when spell-destruction wasn't an issue, originally Heavy Storm was at two and MST at three, and people were often running both, Harpies Feather Duster was legal plus several copies of Trunade depending on the deck. At the time, people were cautious about setting their spells and traps and not overextending. It's only a recent phenomena that everyone seems to feel that spells/traps are designed for overextension. Such a thing is not true at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Whether or not something makes a player play better doesn't give it a right to be unbanned. Monster Reborn makes you think about what you put in the grave. Dark Hole makes you think about what monsters you play. If someone sets a bunch of traps, by all means someone can destroy them and they can suffer the consequences, but it shouldn't be with an OP'd card like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Whether or not something makes a player play better doesn't give it a right to be unbanned. Monster Reborn makes you think about what you put in the grave. Dark Hole makes you think about what monsters you play. If someone sets a bunch of traps' date=' by all means someone can destroy them and they can suffer the consequences, but it shouldn't be with an OP'd card like this.[/quote'] And yet most consider Torrential Tribute to be just fine and everyone accepts that it promotes good game play by punishing overextension. Same with mirror force, which is incredibly powerful, but people think that it's fine at one due to the benefit it offers to the game. Heavy Storm offers similar benefits. Heavy Storm in no way assures the victory of the person who plays it unless the opponent was playing poorly and lost to much advantage to it. (This is excluding OTKs which are most likely banworthy themselves.) It should also be noted that the death of non-chainables is not the result of heavy storm but of the powerful monster based removal such as DAD, JD, Snipe, Lyla, Gyzarus, Bestiari, or Breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanAtlus Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Well, everyone plays it.But if this is still legal, so should Dark Hole be! ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Whether or not something makes a player play better doesn't give it a right to be unbanned. Monster Reborn makes you think about what you put in the grave. Dark Hole makes you think about what monsters you play. If someone sets a bunch of traps' date=' by all means someone can destroy them and they can suffer the consequences, but it shouldn't be with an OP'd card like this.[/quote'] And yet most consider Torrential Tribute to be just fine and everyone accepts that it promotes good game play by punishing overextension. Same with mirror force, which is incredibly powerful, but people think that it's fine at one due to the benefit it offers to the game. Heavy Storm offers similar benefits. Heavy Storm in no way assures the victory of the person who plays it unless the opponent was playing poorly and lost to much advantage to it. (This is excluding OTKs which are most likely banworthy themselves.) It should also be noted that the death of non-chainables is not the result of heavy storm but of the powerful monster based removal such as DAD, JD, Snipe, Lyla, Gyzarus, Bestiari, or Breaker.Kind of ironic how both Torrential Tribute and Mirror Force are destroyed by this card. Mirror and Tribute are also excepted due to slowness. And OTKs usually aren't banworthy, they only become unfair when this is added to the equation. And most of those monsters you talked about had a cost, are OP'd themselves, or were high level monsters that involved combinations to get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I know the monsters are overpowered, that was my point. My point was that it is not one single limited card that killed non-chainables, as you implied, but rather a slew of overpowered and highly destructive monsters that should most certainly be banned. When they are banned, nonchainables will become viable regardless of whether or not Heavy Storm is banned. You know why? Because nobody is going to alter their entire deck purely to be resilient to one card out of forty in everyone's decks. If you set one or two spells/traps, and your opponent heavy storms, you lost no advantage or lost barely any, and Heavy storm was just an MST, basically. If you set your whole hand of spells and traps and didn't protect them, and your opponent storms, it's your own damn fault if your opponent gains massive advantage. People who play conservatively lose barely anything to heavy storm, on the off chance that someone will use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 At worst Heavy is a 1-for-1 when the opponent tries to stop it. If they can't stop it, and they have more than one, that's still an advantage gained. When there's a card like that around that's always a gain or equal, it doesn't matter about how conservatively they play, it's simply a matter of can they be sure? If they made a discard Heavy I would be fine with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Dragon Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 While it could go to 0, it is best at 1 since it does punish people for overextension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 At worst Heavy is a 1-for-1 when the opponent tries to stop it. If they can't stop it' date=' and they have more than one, that's still an advantage gained. When there's a card like that around that's always a gain or equal, it doesn't matter about how conservatively they play, it's simply a matter of can they be sure? If they made a discard Heavy I would be fine with it.[/quote']There are plenty of cards that are "always a gain or equal", it does not mean they are broken. The only time Heavy Storm generates notable advantage is when your opponent overextended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 At worst Heavy is a 1-for-1 when the opponent tries to stop it. If they can't stop it' date=' and they have more than one, that's still an advantage gained. When there's a card like that around that's always a gain or equal, it doesn't matter about how conservatively they play, it's simply a matter of can they be sure? If they made a discard Heavy I would be fine with it.[/quote']There are plenty of cards that are "always a gain or equal", it does not mean they are broken. The only time Heavy Storm generates notable advantage is when your opponent overextended.Why is overextending such a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Because it means that the game takes less skill. If you can just set everything in your hand, you don't need to think about what cards are the most important at the moment. A whole dimension of the game would be lost if overextension went unpunished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Star Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 It's fine where it is. At 3 it makes non-Chainable Traps useless, and at 0, it makes non-Chainable Traps too powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Because it means that the game takes less skill. If you can just set everything in your hand' date=' you don't need to think about what cards are the most important at the moment. A whole dimension of the game would be lost if overextension went unpunished.[/quote']But I thought you said if this was the only nonchainable killer left/taken off the list it wouldn't change much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemniscate Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 At worst Heavy is a 1-for-1 when the opponent tries to stop it. If they can't stop it' date=' and they have more than one, that's still an advantage gained. When there's a card like that around that's always a gain or equal, it doesn't matter about how conservatively they play, it's simply a matter of can they be sure? If they made a discard Heavy I would be fine with it.[/quote']There are plenty of cards that are "always a gain or equal", it does not mean they are broken. The only time Heavy Storm generates notable advantage is when your opponent overextended. yes. but this card can generate such a large level of advantage that it becomes overpowered. Whether or not something makes a player play better doesn't give it a right to be unbanned. Monster Reborn makes you think about what you put in the grave. Dark Hole makes you think about what monsters you play. If someone sets a bunch of traps' date=' by all means someone can destroy them and they can suffer the consequences, but it shouldn't be with an OP'd card like this.[/quote'] And yet most consider Torrential Tribute to be just fine and everyone accepts that it promotes good game play by punishing overextension. Same with mirror force, which is incredibly powerful, but people think that it's fine at one due to the benefit it offers to the game. Heavy Storm offers similar benefits. Heavy Storm in no way assures the victory of the person who plays it unless the opponent was playing poorly and lost to much advantage to it. (This is excluding OTKs which are most likely banworthy themselves.) It should also be noted that the death of non-chainables is not the result of heavy storm but of the powerful monster based removal such as DAD, JD, Snipe, Lyla, Gyzarus, Bestiari, or Breaker. TT and Mirror both destroy monsters. There is enough legal monster removal that this card becomes overpowered. You can use this card to clear out your opponent's back row, and then play your DAD/ Snipe Hunter/ Exiled Force/ Fissure to destroy your opponent's monsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 The card only generates "a large level of advantage" if your opponent is playing poorly. It's only a +0 or +1 if they're conservative which is perfectly acceptable. Cards that are overpowered are acceptable if they are only overpowered because your opponent did something that made them that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~/Coolio Prime\~ Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Some combinations require multiple spell/trap cards on the field. That isn't overextending, that's a combo, which Storm will destroy all of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chaos Pudding Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 It's fine where it is. At 3 it makes non-Chainable Traps useless' date=' and at 0, it makes non-Chainable Traps too powerful.[/quote'] Giant Trunade, Mystical Space Typhoon, even Mobius in a pinch. None of the above are banworthy, and still destroy non-Chainable Traps. Removing Heavy Storm will not stop the downward spiral of non-Chainables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemniscate Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 The card only generates "a large level of advantage" if your opponent is playing poorly. It's only a +0 or +1 if they're conservative which is perfectly acceptable. Cards that are overpowered are acceptable if they are only overpowered because your opponent did something that made them that way. you all act as if this card is at worst a +0, but it could end up as a -1 or more. While unlikely, it should not be ruled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenzoTheHarpist Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Even in a deck with one heavy storm, one MST, and one trunade an opponent using non-chainables will have no problem. It's only when facing a deck with strong monster-based removal that non-chainables stop being viable.The card only generates "a large level of advantage" if your opponent is playing poorly. It's only a +0 or +1 if they're conservative which is perfectly acceptable. Cards that are overpowered are acceptable if they are only overpowered because your opponent did something that made them that way. you all act as if this card is at worst a +0' date=' but it could end up as a -1 or more. While unlikely, it should not be ruled out.[/quote'] If that happens than YOU'RE the one playing poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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