.Rai Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Well, basically, I thought I'd post this because of the card advantage thread. I need to write the rest up. Feel free to discuss match-ups, what makes decks win, and things like that. Also, the second section helps if you want to predict a good deck to use in the local meta. I. How the HELL DO YOU WIN? :< II. The Kingdom of Life If you want to skip the first section, just use Ctrl/Cmd + F and copy in the second section title above. [center][b]How do decks win? And how the hell does Yu-Gi-Oh! actually work?[/b] [/center] Every deck has a purpose. They all thrive to win. Unless you're a noob, of course. [center][b]I. How the HELL DO YOU WIN? :<[/b][/center] [b]> How do you win though?[/b] You stop your opponent from winning and you try to win yourself. Easy peasy. Upon that is the basic theory: If you want to reduce Life Points to 0: Winning = Trying to stop your opponent from winning If you want to deck an opponent out: Winning > Trying to stop your opponent from winning If you want to win via an alternate win condition: Winning < Trying to stop your opponent from winning There are exceptions in the form of various decks, especially in Burn and FTKs. But that's the basic stuff anyway. [b]> What about OTKs? Does that follow the first rule?[/b] Yes. Basically, if you are against another OTK deck, you've gotta stop their OTK as well as win with yours. This is more of a grey area, so I'll leave it for now. [b]> But how do you win and try to stop your opponent from winning?[/b] This is the fundamental question. How? All decks can beat another, despite maybe a bad match-up, meaning that they all have a common way of winning. Except, when you look, there isn't. Konami = Inception. [b]"It's Effect Monsters, duh!"[/b] Normal Monster Turbo, anybody? It can beat decks, so Tier is currently not accounted for. [b]"Then, the OTK!"[/b] Not all decks are OTK decks. T.G. Drain, Gravekeepers, and many more aren't. [b]"Card advantage?"[/b] Ruin your combo with Veiler :3 [b]"Ha! It boils down to Effect Monsters again!"[/b] Yes, then how do things like Skill Drain decks win sometimes? There must be a reason, you know. If they can survive without effects, then what is their connection with other decks? [b]"Perhaps they supplement their decks with extra Spells to make up for the loss of effects?"[/b] Ah, here we go. So, what is so important that it must be supplemented in decks that lack it in the form of monsters. What is needed so desperately that we have to re-include it? [b]"I really don't know :/ Removal? Consistency? Protection?"[/b] Yet, Malefic decks hardly need extra removal because of their massive beatsticks. Yet, they won't win because of another deck's removal. So do they need extra removal? Perhaps. Yet, they can win without it, especially if they do it fast. [b]"So they need consistency?"[/b] Ah, here comes the dilemma. They could do with extra removal, they don't need it, but they can do with it, but they could do with or without extra consistency too. Consistency doesn't usually come in the form of monsters, instead in Spells, so supplementing decks because of a lack of consistency flowing from monsters makes no sense anyway. Besides, we're looking for what a deck NEEDS to win, not what it CAN have to help it win. [b]"Now, we're left with protection, because I can't think of anything else :/"[/b] Nah. Question's finished. You don't need protection to win. Protection just stops your opponent from winning. How cares anyway, if you can't win? You're just stopping yourself from losing, but you're definitely not winning. [b]"Wait, is it just staples then?"[/b] Gallis says hi. It can do without all the spells and traps that are so-called staples. [b]"I give up :<"[/b] Okay. I'll leave this here, because it's just a crazy question. About a children's card game, wut? [center][b]II. The Kingdom of Life[/b] [img]http://i56.tinypic.com/4v2v5e.jpg[/img][/center] The 5 phyla for every single kingdom there are Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard and Spock. It derives from an expansion of Rock-Paper-Scissors. It was then made popular by The Big Bang Theory. BAZINGA. [center][img]http://www.sixprizes.com/wp-content/uploads/600px-Pierre_ciseaux_feuille_lézard_spock_aligned.svg_-225x225.png[/img][/center] [quote]Rock beats Scissors and Lizard. Paper beats Rock and Spock. Scissors beats Paper and Lizard. Spock beats Rock and Scissors. Lizard beats Paper and Spock.[/quote] [url="http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/rpsls/rpsls-25.jpg"]I won't go into the more complex theory of "Rock, Paper, Scissors, Gun, Dynamite, Nuke, Lightning, Devil, Dragon, Alien, Water, Bowl, Air, Moon, Sponge, Wolf, Cockroach, Tree, Man, Woman, Monkey, Snake, Axe, Fire and Sun" though.[/url] So, what decks correspond to each phyla? Rock obviously corresponds to a sturdy control deck so we'll take it from there. [size=5][b][u]Rock[/u][/b][/size] Rock decks are the control decks of our kingdoms. Sturdy and solidly consistent, their main feature is the pure advantage they can hold over opponents. The first way they do this is via constant field advantage. A mixture of defensive traps and plenty of monster floaters/searchers will ensure an opponent’s empty field while you are building up the damage. They are trap-heavy a lot of the time, so they can keep advantage by making sure the opponent can’t. A lot of beatdown and aggro decks are included here as they all boil down to control at the end of the day. They beat scissors, meaning that scissors is most logically swarm. Why? Because control can hold their own against the onslaught, and when it finishes, they just clear up after it. Simple as. [u]Pros[/u] - The advantage against swarm decks. - Usually extremely consistent. [u]Cons[/u] - Certain types are slow. - Has a disadvantage against anything that isn’t swarm, because of the lack of speed compared to other phyla. [b][u]Examples[/u][/b] [b]T.G.[/b]: Basically one of the embodiments of Rock decks. They live on beatsticks and floaters. They can verge into Lizard decks at times, but very slightly, because of the inclusion of Skill Drain sometimes. [b]Gravekeeper's[/b]: Another cool example of a Rock deck. They once again sometimes verge into Lizard decks, because of the disruptive Necrovalley. [b]Anti-Meta[/b]: It's interesting, because it's in the grey areas between Lizard and Rock. Hmm... [size=5][b][u]Scissors[/u][/b][/size] Scissors. Fricking swarm, I tell you. That's it. Godly fast, crazy searching, but lack the protection and defenses on Control decks, because everything happens on their turn. Synchro decks live and breathe here. So little to say. [u]Pros[/u] - Fast. Hell yeah. - Keeps amazing field advantage... [u]Cons[/u] - But can still be beat by control decks. - Well timed Solemn Warnings or other cards can break the enormous amount of Synchro Summons they do. So what do they beat? Combo decks, mainly. [b][u]Examples[/u][/b] [b]Plants[/b]: Can easily hold their own, because of the amount of stuff they can do. Too bad September stole a Lonefire Blossom from them. Might be a combo deck, but they're not overly reliant on 1 combo. [b]Six Sams[/b]: Crippled by September 2011. It's clueless spamming of Shi-Ens, in March. Now, it's more Rocky. [b]Agents[/b]: Somewhat Rocky, Agents do have great field control. They love spamming Hyperions and 'dem Balls. [size=5][b][u]Paper[/u][/b][/size] Paper decks are the combo decks. They are born from the ideas of crazy duelists who insist on making frankenstein-like decks of weirdness. Things that require tons of combos, chains, and things like that are here. They thrive on searching their combo components out, and then releasing it all, usually as an OTK. They are pretty fast, but not as fast as swarm though... [u]Pros[/u] - Efficient and have solutions to most problems. - Fast... [u]Cons[/u] - ... but not enough to beat those swarm decks. - Can be easily broken via disruption i.e. Lizards. [b][u]Examples[/u][/b] [b]Gallis[/b]: Somewhat in Control and Swarm too, because it's not overly reliant on the combo. Perhaps, Monster Mash is the better way of putting it. Combo is Doom + Birdman + Gallis. [b]Future Fusion FTK[/b]: Inconsistent crap, that's what it is. But it's a combo deck, so I'll put it here. [b]Infernities[/b]: I'll put a big question mark here, as it can survive without combos. But it has so many retardedly cool combos, that it's worth putting here. Plants could probably be put here too, if you really wanted. [b]Orichalcos Lockdown[/b]: Not really a real deck, but The Seal of Orichalcos means that you can make the perfect lockdown. Retardly hard to make, but whatevers. Search "The Seal of Orichalcos" up on YCM. I posted the perfect combo somewhere on one of the threads. [size=5][b][u]Lizard[/u][/b][/size] Lizard is the disruptive thing of the deck world. Random anti-meta crap, Veilers, pretty much anything that stops the opponent would immediately live in this category, if it were in a deck. Quite fast like Paper, but they don't try to make combos, but to break another's, as said. Pretty strong actually. [u]Pros[/u] - Annoying like hell with tons of random negation popping out from places. - Verging into control, which is good. [u]Cons[/u] - Win conditions are harder to fulfill because they focus on breaking the opponent's. - They are beaten by swarm and control, which is a terrible thing as they are the two main decks of the format, every format. [b][u]Examples[/u][/b] [b]Anti-Meta[/b]: Pretty much the only true Lizard deck, and even then, it's usually a Rock deck too. All decks have a Lizard element (Fairies have Archlord Kristya, Necrovalley for Gravekeepers, etc.), but none are really truly Lizard. [size=5][b][u]Spock[/u][/b][/size] Spock is the interesting one. It's like where everything else goes. Certain types of stall, toolbox decks, crazy things. It's basically the love child of Scissors, Rock and Paper. Awkward. Stall belongs here, because it has an extremely strange deck structure. Little monsters, lots more protection. Toolboxes are here because of their pure weirdness. They teleport their crap everywhere, and searching out answers for everything. [u]Pros[/u] - Fun! - It does beat the two main meta decks... [u]Cons[/u] - If there actually was a good spock deck. As of yet, nearly all spock decks are terribad. [b][u]Examples[/u][/b] [b]RatBox[/b]: Fun, but no means meta. Basically, use Giant Rat to search out random stuff. [b]Chain Burn[/b]: Once again, not exactly meta, because it's so slow. Only half the Spock decks even have an advantage against Rock and Scissors, and even then, they're all bad. [b]Stall Burn[/b]: Above. [b]MistValleyToolbox[/b]: It's fun, and quite crazy. Has certain Scissors and Lizard elements about it, which is why it fares better than the other Spock decks. Better if you mix it with Plants, but even then it's gimmicky and not meta in the slightest. inb4thelock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 I find your theory to actually be quite interesting. Going back to Card Advantage and the Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock diagram, each niche of deck has their own way of gaining advantage (Causing your opponent to lose advantage while increasing your own at the same time, concentrating your field advantage, toolboxing, ect. ect.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Interesting read. I like how you essentially tie the first and second part together. You say it's unclear about how decks do win, but then you explain how different decks do win. Something which people obviously didn't get in the Card Advantage thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Tristan T. Taylor' timestamp='1317568038' post='5554998'] Interesting read. I like how you essentially tie the first and second part together. You say it's unclear about how decks do win, but then you explain how different decks do win. Something which people obviously didn't get in the Card Advantage thread. [/quote] Yeah, basically, they all win in different ways, but even badly matched decks can win against their opponents, so why? There's obviously another factor apart from the match-up, or what I mentioned in the first section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 More like Rock, Paper, Scissors, inb4thelock mirite? Cool essay, but I think you guys take it too seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Expelsword - 輝き' timestamp='1317568206' post='5555003'] Cool essay, but I think you guys take it too seriously. [/quote] (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ No, but seriously, it's just analysing the card game itself, like as if you were analysing a book or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1317568169' post='5555002'] Yeah, basically, they all win in different ways, but even badly matched decks can win against their opponents, so why? There's obviously another factor apart from the match-up, or what I mentioned in the first section. [/quote] It's called luck. And how well each player actually uses their cards. A player with Deck A that has an advantage over Deck B that's run by another player might not win because they waste cards such as Warning, or the player using Deck B baits out Deck A's advantage, and exploits it through some manner. Also, techs exist for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonk Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Expelsword - 輝き' timestamp='1317568206' post='5555003'] More like Rock, Paper, Scissors, inb4thelock mirite? Cool essay, but I think you guys take it too seriously. [/quote] To a very large extent, what Cursed Reaction posted is the embodiment of YGO play. Instead of merely discussing cards, he discussed the heart of YGO play. This information can help new players find their way around instead of being random with their decks (decks that do not focus on any of the points usually do not do well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Tristan T. Taylor' timestamp='1317568352' post='5555012'] It's called luck. And how well each player actually uses their cards. A player with Deck A that has an advantage over Deck B that's run by another player might not win because they waste cards such as Warning, or the player using Deck B baits out Deck A's advantage, and exploits it through some manner. Also, techs exist for a reason. [/quote] In the situation that you have two evenly matched duelists, so skill is not a factor in this, we can deduce that luck is the ONLY factor involved in the game. It seems to make sense, but is logically extremely hard to imagine (unless you watch the situational duels that are in the anime :>). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1317568597' post='5555023'] In the situation that you have two evenly matched duelists, so skill is not a factor in this, we can deduce that luck is the ONLY factor involved in the game. It seems to make sense, but is logically extremely hard to imagine (unless you watch the situational duels that are in the anime :>). [/quote] It's a card game, luck is permanently a dominant factor, which is why there are so many anomalies when it comes to Yugioh. The better deck should always win, but because of luck it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Berserker- Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 What would a Seaking deck be classified as? It relies mostly in a swarmer to get to it's goal. But that goal includes big beatsticks, that, with the new variety of usable Extra deck options, can be considered a Toolbox too. And some of those options, like Stardust or Roach, are obviously Control-type cards. It also has a lot of different combos to Get Coelacanth on the field without tributing 2 monsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Saikano' timestamp='1317571481' post='5555128'] What would a Seaking deck be classified as? It relies mostly in a swarmer to get to it's goal. But that goal includes big beatsticks, that, with the new variety of usable Extra deck options, can be considered a Toolbox too. And some of those options, like Stardust or Roach, are obviously Control-type cards. It also has a lot of different combos to Get Coelacanth on the field without tributing 2 monsters. [/quote] Fish has been Swarm in the past, but it's veering into control nowadays. A fun variant is to run the Fish-Type Gladiator Beasts, and go for 2 Gladiator Beast Andals. It's quite a good deck, and highly control based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Votes for Sticky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDDRodrigo Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1317572667' post='5555151'] Votes for Sticky. [/quote] It's like, what TCG needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Legend Zero' timestamp='1317572667' post='5555151'] Votes for Sticky. [/quote] Q4E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 After reading this... My ChaosKnight.dek is [i]CLEARLY[/i] Scissors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanael D. Striker Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Am I the only Lizard duelist around? Anti-Meta has been great to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Mr. Striker' timestamp='1317574129' post='5555193'] Am I the only Paper duelist around? Anti-Meta has been great to me. [/quote] I doubt you'd be the only Paper duelist when everyone considers Gallis God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanael D. Striker Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Tristan T. Taylor' timestamp='1317574182' post='5555196'] I doubt you'd be the only Paper duelist when everyone considers Gallis God. [/quote] Yea, got mixed up. I meant Lizard, which I fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Account is Unplayable Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Mr. Striker' timestamp='1317574240' post='5555197'] Yea, got mixed up. I meant Lizard, which I fixed. [/quote] Anti-Meta isn't very good, so yeh. Part-lizard decks like GK are much better, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugendramon Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Disaster is... Scissors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airride Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Genex Are Origami Scissors. Not entirely combo, but not all swarm. BAZINGA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob the Rainicorn Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Cursed reaction, would you mind telling me what your msn adress is so that I can talk about your theories in real time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Chaosinfiniti' timestamp='1317580799' post='5555454'] Cursed reaction, would you mind telling me what your msn adress is so that I can talk about your theories in real time? [/quote] I'll just stick it on my profile, so look there in about 5 minutes. I do have a reuputation of not being on, and I can't come on now, but I'm happy to talk to you when I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Nu-13 Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 [quote name='Cursed Reaction' timestamp='1317580958' post='5555461'] I do have a reuputation of not being on [/quote] Yes, yes you do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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