Thoughts on the March 1, 2012 Forbidden/Limited List – By Kevin Tewart

[Bringerofcake]

[url="http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=3866"]http://www.konami.co...rticles/?p=3866[/url]

Discuss.

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

[color=#555555][font=Verdana,][quote]Same decks – same cards – every Duel.[/quote][/font][/color]

[font="Verdana, BitStream vera Sans, Tahoma, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size=3][font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif][size=4]Oh look, there's the Meta in a nutshell![/size][/font][/size][/font]

[Agro]

[b][u]Main Notes:[/b][/u]
- Avoid Having 1 Dominant deck.
[b]It's now apparent that Konami did not like the TeleDAD format.[/b]
- restrict "Solitaire" decks where one player plays for 15 minutes
[b]Look out Fabled. They say this... yet Inzektor & Hieratic Loops exist. Of course, you can also say that Putting out a Laggia is almost like saying: Here, you can have your move, you just can't do anything during it.[/b]
- eliminate cards that are confusing, cause the game to stall, create infinite loops, or otherwise interfere with tournaments and make them unpleasant.
[b]Besides everything they didn't ban and should have banned, this makes sense of the whole banlist.[/b]
- Since they were introduced, Synchro Monsters have been a big factor in Duels. And we’ll keep making more of them.
[b]MAKE MY DAY.[/b]
- Plaguespreader's cost was losing a card from your hand.
[b]No, it was losing your draw next turn.[/b]
- Considered hitting One for One
[b]You f*cking with me?[/b]
- Reason to not hit lonefire: hitting lonefire would punish many legit plant decks
[b]Well the real reason you hit it is because it's a card that has no restrictions SSing a Plant monster from the deck.[/b]
- Reason for not hitting Dandylion: hitting Dandylion would eliminate a versatile card that goes in lots of fun decks, but would actually be ineffective at stopping the core problem.
[b]Dandylion is a problem in itself, hitting it would let you free up another few cards on your banlists... or just Debris. GIVE ME BACK MY DEBRIS DRAGON.[/b]
- "There were some cries from players to do something about Lightsworn at the time, particularly because of the powerful nature of Judgment Dragon. But this is a good example of how we won’t go after a card just because it’s powerful. It needs to actually threaten the tournament scene to get hit, and Lightsworn weren’t doing that. Running into a powerful Lightsworn deck at a tournament could certainly ruin your day, but they just weren’t topping enough events, or growing in size, to mark them as a concern."
[b]And there's why alternate win conditions won't go away.[/b]
- "Our options were to de-limit [Smoke Signal] or to de-limit Legendary Six Samurai – Shi En."
[b]Oh, you guize...[/b]
- "We’re reviving TT as a potential counter to some of the mass-summoning and repeat-summoning effects players find so attractive these days."
[b]Most sense you've made all day.[/b]
- "These two decks (T.G. & Agents... or T.G. Agents) were building up momentum in Asia, and threatening the tournament diversity there, so they needed to get reigned in a little bit."
[b]Hey look, we were right.[/b]
- "As an interesting note, AFTER the list was already decided, Marquis Henderson won YCS Atlanta with a T.G. Deck. A sign of what might have come? We may never know, but it lends credence to the idea that nipping this in the bud was the right call."
[b]No. It wasn't. There was no reason to take them both out because one dude managed to defy the odds and win in the TCG, you should have stopped at Asia.[/b]
- "It’s always nice to keep the F&L List as short as possible, so there’s less to keep track of."
[b]Well why don't you let me work at Konami? Bye bye JD, hello every other LS card on the list. Plus I get to take off a little BoMing spirit that doesn't need to be there.[/b]
- "Check back tomorrow when I discuss the cards that didn’t have their status changed."
[b]This ought to be an interesting read. I hope you make me feel better about your sins.[/b]
- "Then again on Monday when I’ll talk about some of the hidden factors that impact our decisions – things that aren’t apparent to the average person."
[b]You mean like everything you just explained? Most of us had already figured it out.[/b]

Actually I kind of liked him making this article, he should do this every format.

[Bringerofcake]

Also, did anyone notice a distinct lack of Tengu on that sheet?

[Agro]

[quote name='Bringerofcake' timestamp='1337326042' post='5941698']
Also, did anyone notice a distinct lack of Tengu on that sheet?
[/quote]He was once quoted for saying that there was no need to hit Tengu because it isn't a real problem. Yeah, I doubt he'd talk about it now.

[Resident Fascist]

Wow, this actually changed my opinion of Konami. They are actually communicating with the players, like Wizards of the Coast? Excellent. Tewart pretty much had his hands tied because a lot of people didn't like the list, but I can see where he's coming from now, and the bans, all but Spore, where pretty justified, considering Trishula ruined games, Glow-Up was a free +1 and Dustshoot was basicially the pass to scoop the game. Them saying they will make more Synchros definately is a good thing, and it's good to see the mechanic not being suddenly killed.

[Canadian]

[url="http://duelistgroundz.com/index.php?showtopic=144294"]http://duelistground...howtopic=144294[/url]

Some things I disagree with, like beefing up old decks, and not helping others. The banning of some cards, but not touching others. The lack of taking things off the list that have no purpose being there (in a competitive state).

After a good read, I really feel that YGO needs a unified game rather than trying to blend 2 separate ones together. Let everyone have access to the exclusives (and cards for the matter), have the same rulings for all the cases (which priority leaving was a step in the right direction), have the players communicate with the people in charge of the lists and give their input instead of having them make all the decisions in the pursuit of "dolla dolla billz-yo"

iirc, Kevin said that there were many things he wanted to do, but Japan's viewpoints on them were just not the same. Whether that be from a business standpoint, or from the different meta-game standpoint, that is really not fair to the players. I guess it really does not matter and is not up to us as of right now. Many of us will keep playing because we like this game even though its going to hell.

[Toffee.]

[quote]To prevent a situation where you feel “locked in” – where you HAVE to play with certain cards, or a certain Deck. To keep it so there are choices for what Deck you play. Avoid having 1 dominant Deck.[/quote]
Dark Hole, Storm, Reborn, Black Luster, Veiler, Uhhh.... Inzektor hornet(?)

[quote]To restrict “solitaire” play Decks. These are usually first-turn-combo Decks where one Duelist plays by themselves for 15 minutes, shuffling and summoning cards while their opponent twiddles his thumbs.[/quote]
Exodia, Rabbit, Inzektor, HERO(Maybe), Samurais, etc

[quote]To eliminate cards that are confusing[/quote]
Darkworlds, because card-text.

[quote]cause games to stall out[/quote]
Countdown is still@3

[quote]interfere with tournaments and make them unpleasant.[/quote]
GEE, I WONDER WHERE I SHOULD START.

[Bringerofcake]

[quote]Then again on Monday when I’ll talk about some of the hidden factors that impact our decisions – things that aren’t apparent to the average person.[/quote]
I kinda hope he talks about more than just the banlist (even though he only will). I'd like to hear an actual reason why rarity bumps even exist in the first place.

[Catterjune]

Tried reading it. Stopped here:

[quote]-Re-usable cards with no cost are even okay.[/quote]
No they really fucking aren't.

But then again, Konami's never had it's players' best interests at heart. Like all companies, it only focuses on their bottom dollar. The actual reason banlists (and power creeps) are made is because if there was a super powerful archetype that beat every deck in LOB, then no one would bother buying booster packs of whatever was the latest pack.

[.Rai]

> Moves Level Limit B from Limited to Semi-Limited
> 'Banlist is shorter'

:L My god, the logic. Not to mention the logic of having to cause a riot in the competitive scene to deserve attention, even if it's horribly designed. And, bloody hell, what is up with the logic on Spore. It's absolutely horrible.

However, some of the other justifications are kinda alright. Glad Konami are at least trying to communicate with the playerbase. Even if it's a complete charade.

[Master Hyperion]

[url="http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=3876"]http://www.konami.co...rticles/?p=3876[/url]

Kevin Stewart covers GB Bestiari, Book of Moon Wind-Up Hunter, Rescue Rabbit and Inzektors (barely mentioned).

Its okay Stewart, I like getting my IQ getting dropped into oblivion when I start reading the Wind-Up Hunter part.

[evilfusion]

After reading both articles...

I actually agree on almost everything discussed in them.

They claim to be keeping an eye on Inzektors and Rabbit, and I believe that's true. With Priority gone, Rabbit will still be amazingly good, but it'll be LESS good. It's why the OCG hasn't hit Rabbit yet, either. Inzektors and Wind-Up Hunter are also really good, but the latter can suffer from severe inconsistencies in pulling off death combos. Inzektors need more study to decide HOW to hit them, anyway. They only need 1 Hornet, but Dragonfly isnt much better.

And the Decks Arm mentioned in regards to "solitaire Decks" don't count. Well, Samurai kind of do, what with Gateway's potential, but I actually haven't seen Samurai pull that crap off lately. Single combos aren't the same idea as a player doing stuff forever.

In regards to Pika, reusable cards without a cost aren't a problem DEPENDING on what it does. The concept of a reusable card is not inherently bad, it's how far it extends.

Plaguespreader removes a card in hand and while it could be said it skips your next draw, you don't have the card you put back for the remainder of the turn, and that distinction is actually extremely important, especially if you look at Synchro-ing Brionac or something. Skipping a draw but keeping a card in hand > Losing the card and getting it back instead of your regular draw.

JD was never touched afterwards because LS stopped topping after Necro, Lumina, Charge, and JD got hit. The Deck's lucksacking factor greatly weakened the Deck's viability.

[Toffee.]

[quote name='evilfusion' timestamp='1337381340' post='5942115']
And the Decks Arm mentioned in regards to "solitaire Decks" don't count. Well, Samurai kind of do, what with Gateway's potential,[/quote]
I may have over-exaggerated a bit...
And for all we know, that Samurai Xyz monster will be a walking Gateway.

[Legend Zero]

[quote name='Master Hyperion' timestamp='1337379333' post='5942096']
[url="http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=3876"]http://www.konami.co...rticles/?p=3876[/url]
[/quote]
tl;dr "We know the loop is awful and sucks to play against, but we only care about winners so shut up."

[Wizarus]

[quote][b][u]Gladiator Beast Bestiari[/u][/b]
[color=#555555][font=Verdana,]We’d like to give Gladiator Beasts a boost at the tournament level. But de-limiting Bestiari doesn’t give Gladiator Beasts a boost. It just gives the Gyzarus spam deck a boost. Which isn’t what we want to do. So we’re still pondering this conundrum.[/font][/color][/quote]

...so just Ban Gyzarus, and put Bestiari to 3? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Glads rather have Bestiari at 3?

[quote][b][u]Book of Moon[/u][/b]
[color=#555555][font=Verdana,]This card has had its ups and downs on the F&L List. It has also fallen in and out of popularity. [i][b]When it has a streak of popularity, it quickly hits a point where everybody feels they HAVE to play with it.[/b][/i] There’s some evidence that Book is on the decline at the moment, but every time we ease up on Book, it tends to pop up again like some crazy game of whack-a-mole. So we’re going to play it safe and leave it where it is, for now.[/font][/color][/quote]

This is a terrible reason why BOM should have been hit IMO. No mention of Empty Jar at all. By this logic, Effect Veiler should go to 1. Lets make it easier for Wind-ups to first turn hand loop, Rabbits to first turn lock-down, Hieratics to OTK second turn, and Inzekderps to +4 while destroying your field.

[quote][b][u]Wind-Up Hunter[/u][/b]
[color=#555555][font=Verdana,]With cards from [i]Order of Chaos[/i], it’s possible to build a powerful hand discard engine. And when the March 1 F&L list was under discussion, we considered taking some preemptive action against Wind-Ups. [b]But the deciding factor was that, at the time, the deck had been available in Asia for a while already, and they just weren’t winning tournaments there.[/b][/font][/color]
[color=#555555][font=Verdana,]We saw a lot of parallels between Wind-Ups and Lightsworn (see yesterday’s comments on Lumina, Lightsworn Summoner). A Wind-Up deck can be very nasty to face against in a tournament. [b]But at the end of the day, when we were looking at the situation at the start of the year, they just didn’t seem to be winning in Asia.[/b] Tournament results in the Americas and Europe since the release of [/font][/color][i]Order of Chaos[/i][color=#555555][font=Verdana,] have supported this: Wind-Ups are there, but not in heavy numbers, and they’re not performing that well. We’ll continue to keep an eye on them, though.[/font][/color][/quote]

Disregarding the fact that Asia doesn't have access to key cards like Shark, it's at least refreshing to hear him explicitly state that Konami doesn't give a rat's ass about the TCG format. It also "confirms" why Exodia, Countdown, Jar, and Burn are not banned, although not banning them along with Hunter conflicts with this:

[quote][b][u]Why We Have a List![/u][/b]
[color=#555555][font=Verdana,]To avoid situations like that from happening again, here are some of the many reasons why we have an F&L list:[/font][/color][list]
[*]To restrict “solitaire” play Decks. These are usually first-turn-combo Decks where one Duelist plays by themselves for 15 minutes, shuffling and summoning cards while their opponent twiddles his thumbs.
[/list]
[color=#FFFFFF][font=Verdana,].[/font][/color][color=#FFFFFF][font=Verdana,].[/font][/color][/quote]

[quote][b][u]Rescue Rabbit[/u][/b]
[color=#555555][font=Verdana,]We knew from the get-go that this would be a popular card, and it bears watching because of its resemblance to the more open-ended Rescue Cat (which is still forbidden). We’re keeping a very close eye on the bunny. [b]Will decks focused around this card end up crowding out all the other decks? Time will tell.[/b] [b]Inzektors are in a similar boat – a popular deck with promise, that bears close watching. Although Inzektors haven’t had their break-out moment, yet.[/b][/quote][/font][/color]
[color=#555555][font=Verdana,]So one format where Rabbit dominated isn't enough time to see that Laggia needs to be limited or banned? One format isn't enough time to see that Hornet needs to be hit? And by this language, it seems that Konami doesn't even plan on hitting Inzektors this September.[/font][/color]

[Bringerofcake]

So they skip talking about Tengu in the first article, and skip talking about TGU in the second. I'm curious why he didn't choose to talk about them, especially TGU, one of the most popular cards thus far.

[Agro]

Here's the problem with the "they aren't winning argument": the deck with the problem isn't winning because you asswipes made 10 other stupid decks that need to get beaten to a pulp by the list.