Time Seal

[Zowayix]

I still can't get why this is Forbidden while Drop Off and Drastic Drop Off are both Unlimited.

If used during the Draw Phase, Drop Off and Drastic Drop Off are essentially Time Seal + "send the top card of your opponent's Deck to the Graveyard".

Here are my thoughts:
- I know that Deck fattening and denial of potential Graveyard setup are both bad for the opponent, but is this really enough to drop a card all the way from "6" to 0? (I use 6 because you can run three of both Drop off and Drastic Drop Off, which have the same effect if used during the Draw Phase.)
- Time Seal can be activated before the Draw Phase and still skip it. Is it this earlier timing that makes the card banworthy?

[Agro]

Because Drop Off isn't chainable and you get a card from your deck somewhere other than the deck.

People would run Time Seal, no one draws Drop Off.

[MK-ultra]

[quote name='Agro' timestamp='1343359325' post='5989869']
Because Drop Off isn't chainable and you get a card from your deck somewhere other than the deck.

People would run Time Seal, no one draws Drop Off.
[/quote]
exactly

plus notice the STRIKING similarity between time seal and yata?
yea thats y heir both banned cause ure opponent is left with nothing to do

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Plus, having the card sent to the graveyard by Drop Off isn't as devastating, since you can actually use that card with things like Monster Reborn, use for fodder, etc. Though that's if it wasn't a spell or trap.

[MK-ultra]

[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1343361398' post='5989918']
Plus, having the card sent to the graveyard by Drop Off isn't as devastating, since you can actually use that card with things like Monster Reborn, use for fodder, etc. Though that's if it wasn't a spell or trap.
[/quote]
or its a plus if ure running DW (thats why i stoped useing my darastic drop offs)

[Mehmani]

Time Seal got banned, quite rightly, because it is a chainable version of Yata, which is arguably the most broken card in the game (I put it up there with Makyura). I hope we never see it again.

[byak]

If this card ever came back I'd never want to MST their single backrow again ever.

[TerrorKingA]

Time Seal deserves to be banned the same way Butterfly Dagger - Elma deserved to be banned. What that means is it looks harmless enough on paper, but in practice it is absolutely devastating. I'd rather get Wind-Up looped and lose my hand than not being able to draw for a turn.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Probably the other reason it got banned was people would go: Time Seal. Flip Mask of Darkness and get time seal back. Summon Tsukuyomi to reset mask. tsukumomi bounces in the end phase. Repeat, and your opponent does't draw again for a very, long time.

[Blake]

[quote name='HiveNet' timestamp='1343396120' post='5990151']
Probably the other reason it got banned was people would go: Time Seal. Flip Mask of Darkness and get time seal back. Summon Tsukuyomi to reset mask. tsukumomi bounces in the end phase. Repeat, and your opponent does't draw again for a very, long time.
[/quote]
No, really? I never knew that.

Thing is, that combo is too slow modern day, though still badly designed.

Time Seal never needs to come back, though, because it's a chainable +0 that says "f*** you" to them being able to keep up if you get it at the right time.

[mido9]

It's a win moar card that can only help when you already have field presence since it makes your own card blank in exchange for making the opponent's next card blank,meaning that it only freezes the gamestate by preventing both players from progressing,and the only gamestate you want frozen is the one when you're immediately winning.

Unlimit it.

[Mugendramon]

[quote name='mido9' timestamp='1343397878' post='5990159']
It's a win moar card that can only help when you already have field presence since it makes your own card blank in exchange for making the opponent's next card blank,meaning that it only freezes the gamestate by preventing both players from progressing,and the only gamestate you want frozen is the one when you're immediately winning.

Unlimit it.
[/quote]

Alternatively, you +1 when they MST it.

[Lonk]

I'd like to see Time Seal come back. After all, it is just a temporary Draw Stop.

[ihop]

[quote name='Koloktos' timestamp='1343398353' post='5990164']
I'd like to see Time Seal come back. After all, it is [b]just[/b] a temporary Draw Stop.
[/quote]

?

[Lonk]

[quote name='Kabasaurus' timestamp='1343401165' post='5990186']
?
[/quote]

Confused? Good.

[Agro]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1343396693' post='5990157']
No, really? I never knew that.
[/quote]Is it weird if I read that as if Hinata said it after being told that some barnacles are edible?

OT: Time Seal should never come back. Drop off should never really be used.

[Zowayix]

Would Time Seal still be banned if it had either of these two alternate effects?

1) Activate only during your opponent's Draw Phase. They cannot conduct their normal draw during this Draw Phase.

2) Skip your opponent's next Draw Phase, then send the top card of their Deck to the Graveyard.

[Blake]

[quote name='Zowayix' timestamp='1343412692' post='5990325']
Would Time Seal still be banned if it had either of these two alternate effects?

1) Activate only during your opponent's Draw Phase. They cannot conduct their normal draw during this Draw Phase.

2) Skip your opponent's next Draw Phase, then send the top card of their Deck to the Graveyard.
[/quote]
Stop posting this stuff. You're terrible at card design, and it doesn't matter if it would because it will never be like that. This isn't custom cards.

[Citrine Serpent]

[quote name='Zowayix' timestamp='1343412692' post='5990325']
Would Time Seal still be banned if it had either of these two alternate effects?

1) Activate only during your opponent's Draw Phase. They cannot conduct their normal draw during this Draw Phase.

2) Skip your opponent's next Draw Phase, then send the top card of their Deck to the Graveyard.
[/quote]

1: maybe unbanned, it's now the same as the drop offs except they don't get potential set up

2: yes, still banned, still chainable

[Sunshine Jesse]

On the subject, I'm curious of the OP's opinion on this.

cards like Raiza and PWWB vs cards like Drastic/Drop Off

Which is more harmful iyo?

[Sleepy]

Drop Off < Drastic Drop Off <<<<<<<<<< Time Seal.

[img]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071206022038/yugioh/images/thumb/0/0c/SoulDevouringBambooSwordGLAS-EN-C-1E.jpg/300px-SoulDevouringBambooSwordGLAS-EN-C-1E.jpg[/img]

[Zowayix]

[quote name='Nightmare Zarkus' timestamp='1343414363' post='5990352']
On the subject, I'm curious of the OP's opinion on this.

cards like Raiza and PWWB vs cards like Drastic/Drop Off

Which is more harmful iyo?
[/quote]
Interesting question. All four cards are +0s in essence (you need two cards to summon Raiza or use PWWB, and the opponent loses a card from their field and "sort of" has their next Draw Phase skipped).
I'd say Raiza and PWWB are more harmful, because the user can choose which card the opponent loses, whereas the user cannot with Drastic/Drop Off.

[Blake]

[quote name='Zowayix' timestamp='1343419565' post='5990418']
Interesting question. All four cards are +0s in essence (you need two cards to summon Raiza or use PWWB, and the opponent loses a card from their field and "sort of" has their next Draw Phase skipped).
I'd say Raiza and PWWB are more harmful, because the user can choose which card the opponent loses, whereas the user cannot with Drastic/Drop Off.
[/quote]
If Raiza's anything but a +1 you're doing it wrong.
PWWB is a -1.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

[quote name='Yuzuru Otonashi' timestamp='1343420410' post='5990430']
If Raiza's anything but a +1 you're doing it wrong.
PWWB is a -1.
[/quote]
It's a +0 in terms of advantage. Your opponent doesn't lose their draw, they just draw a different card. It's essentially the same as if Raiza's effect added a monster to a player's hand, then made them skip their Draw Phase. The math is as follows: -1 to summon, +0 for itself, +1 for draw phase skip. Field advantage-wise, it's still the same thing, since you wouldn't count the skip as advantage for that.

[Blake]

[quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1343421739' post='5990440']
It's a +0 in terms of advantage. Your opponent doesn't lose their draw, they just draw a different card. It's essentially the same as if Raiza's effect added a monster to a player's hand, then made them skip their Draw Phase. The math is as follows: -1 to summon, +0 for itself, +1 for draw phase skip. Field advantage-wise, it's still the same thing, since you wouldn't count the skip as advantage for that.
[/quote]
And there's the inherent math of "+1 Treeborn/Ronin" that should always be associated with Monarchs. Hence, "If Raiza is anything but a +1 you're doing it wrong".