What If...

[Sleepy]

There is always something that could be fixed/upgraded/done better in a game.

I've lately been more into the "design" stuff more than I've been into the actual game (probably recurring feelings from last format, but w/e).

Describe/discuss what you'd consider "better" to implement/change in the game.
How would you make it different and why would it be better that way?
Why is it bad as it is?

It can be a rule of the game, a specific mechanic that repeats itself in cards, or any aspect of the game you aren't completely fond of.

Rituals? Unions? Fusions? Spirits? Synchros?
Number of Zones? Tributes required? Initial Life?
Burn mechanics? The way X Decks swarm?


Hopefully I'm explaining myself well enough here....

[Toffee.]

Byak's idea of banning every DARK monster was a decent start.... For the most part O,o

[Northern Sage]

[s]What if all "What if..." scenarios are total BS?
Oh wait...[/s]
I feel that most, if not all, alt win cards are just plain stupid and could easily be removed from the game. Same goes for the heinous design known as the big red button.

[Sleepy]

[quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1348955121' post='6034780']
Byak's idea of banning every DARK monster was a decent start.... For the most part O,o
[/quote]

Suggestions like that make for formats 1000 times better than the suggestions "pegasus challenge" comes up with in the official site.
It'd be interesting indeed.

btw, I found a thread about it, but made by .Rai and not by Byakk. Which seems to be a remake of the original by Byakk. I need to keep looking....

[quote name='Archbaron Thor the Just' timestamp='1348955564' post='6034784']
[s]What if all "What if..." scenarios are total BS?
Oh wait...[/s]
I feel that most, if not all, alt win cards are just plain stupid and could easily be removed from the game. Same goes for the heinous design known as the big red button.
[/quote]

[s]inb4thatisaparadoxisn'tit?[/s]

Agreed. I heard in another discussion, that the only rescatable win condition, is Venominaga, and that card is more likely to win by normal ways anyways.

[Agro]

Ban multi-chainability.

Why have an exception to the rule with LaDD one way if we can just as easily have no exceptions the other way?

I just don't like the mechanic at all.

[Thomas★Zero]

I would of thought as a idea for the inital lp to start at 10,000 rather than 8,000 so OTK get that less pulled off.

Plus the Extra deck should be at 20 and the Side to 10.

[Azuh]

Rituals should be in the Extra Deck

[DL]

10,000 LP seems better than 8000 nowadays

10 card extra deck makes it so you don't have AS many options when you go synchro like 5 things in a turn

Actually

There should be a limit to how many times one can Special Summon in a turn (or at least, Synchro summon/Xyz summon)

Of course, that's either a really good idea, or a really stupid one :T


I myself, am okay with the 'game'

Just, not the current 'cards'

[Great Unclean One: VK]

How about we used the Duelist Kingdom rules only?

That sounds like it'll be loads of fun.

[Wildflame]

[quote name='~Batshit Insane VK~' timestamp='1348974755' post='6034934']
How about we used the Duelist Kingdom rules only?

That sounds like it'll be loads of fun.
[/quote]

2000 LP?

3k beaters with no tributes?

No thank you.

[DL]

[quote name='Wildflame' timestamp='1348975560' post='6034939']
2000 LP?

3k beaters with no tributes?

No thank you.
[/quote]Or better yet

Season 1 rules

I would love my Gilasaurus to get 20% atk boost from Wasteland

[Saynt]

1. Special summoned monsters can't use their effects on the same turn, unless it has a quick effect, existing effects that activate when the monster is summoned would have to be changed.

2. Quick effects are reserved for monsters with more difficult summoning conditions or monsters which restrict the main deck (Spirit monsters and non-Gishki Rituals especially), so there is more incentive to make use of them rather than spam generic Xyzs and archetype SS spam.

3. Specific cards allow SS'd monsters without quick effects to use their effects on the same turn. Maybe some Union monsters can have this role,


Probably not the greatest set of rules that could be implemented, but having only a Forbidden/Limited/Semi-Limited list isn't nearly enough to "fix" anything.

[Sleepy]

[quote name='~Batshit Insane VK~' timestamp='1348974755' post='6034934']
How about we used the Duelist Kingdom rules only?

That sounds like it'll be loads of fun.
[/quote]

That could be interesting. Depending on what the specifics are of course.

The rules of the manga only gave you 5 zones total.
Only allowed you to set 1 Trap each turn.
Did not allow you to activate 2 copies of the same Spell in the same turn.
Also, Fusion Monsters didn't exist. You had to keep showing that all 3 Blue Eyes and Polymerization covered 4 of your 5 zones for Blue Eyes Ultimate to be in play, and no Fusion Monsters could attack in the first turn.

You'd also have to make up some of your own rules, because the show's 20% bonus and the such are not really easily translatable.

[Just Crouton]

What if Iron Man lost the Armor Wars?[list]
[*][i]Both players [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Draw_a_card"]draw[/url] until they have 5 cards in their "[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Hand"]hand[/url]". If they have 5 cards in their hand, they can't draw any more cards.[/i]
[*][i]1 monster card is placed on the "Main card stage", the centre place on the disk.[/i]
[*][i]The other 4 cards are placed [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Face-down"]face-down[/url] into the other places, the "Sub card stage".[/i]
[*][i]The players can only [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Attack"]attack[/url] with the monster in the main card stage, providing it is in [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_Position"]Attack Position[/url] first. It can attack the opponent's main card stage monster or one of the sub stage cards.[/i]
[*][i]Any monsters in the sub card stage are considered to be in Attack Position and [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_calculation"]damage calculation[/url] is done accordingly. [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_Card"]Spell[/url] and [url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Trap_Card"]Trap Cards[/url] are destroyed with no calculation done.[/i]
[*][i]The players may shuffle their sub card stages at their discretion.[/i]
[/list]
The manga Duel Disk v1 rules would be hilarious with Bergzak for a possible popping 2 cards in the opponent's sub stage if the first is a monster. Also, attacking the opponent's sub stage with Asura Priest/ Machine Lord Ur + Axe of Despair [img]http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n530/Felipe_Baleiro/trollface.png[/img]

[Sleepy]

Btw.
It'd be amazing if someone made a coherent ruling explaining how Catapult Turtle can win the game by destroying the flotation ring of Castle of Dark Illusions.

Js.

[Just Crouton]

[quote name='Sleepy' timestamp='1348983204' post='6034993']
Btw.
It'd be amazing if someone made a coherent ruling explaining how Catapult Turtle can win the game by destroying the flotation ring of Castle of Dark Illusions.

Js.
[/quote]

Catapult's apparent manga eff
[i]You can tribute 1 monster you control to target 1 face-up card your opponent controls; destroy that target.[/i]

Castle's manga last, unwritten sentence
[i]If this card is destroyed by a card effect/leaves the field: Destroy all monsters you control.[/i]

Then, there's the DK rules that when monsters are destroyed by card effects besides Virus cards, their owners lose LP equal to half it's base ATK.

[-Griffin]

Ok, some easy things:

* 10,000 - 20,000 LP. Probably lower end of that, ~12,000. Far too easy to OTK.
* 20 card extra. Honestly, top Decks are not restricted by the Extra-Deck-limit much - they are usually fairly narrow and just pull of certain tactics extremely reliably. This would allow for flexible Decks that have the option for both Synchro and Xyz, and even Fusion sometimes, to be more competitive.

A far bigger rule change:

* Limit everything by default (some exceptions could be mentioned in card text) &/or increase minimum Deck size to 50/60. Currently, 30+ cards in basically every Deck are either staples, or staples for the Decktype you're building. There is most certainly room for refinement in the current game, but I feel there could vastly be more. Also, most super-fast Decks come from cards used with themselves in some form (e.g, Wind-ups would be so much more tame if they couldn't use multiple Sharks/Magicians in a turn. Even if they had other cards of good strength to fill in for the missing slots.)

Card design philosophy changes:

* Less Summon negation, less easy monster removal besides cards which 'destroy'. Solemn Judgement&Warning banned for sure. Boss monsters currently feel like they're rarely 'worth the effort' - they simply get blown away or their Summon is negated without hitting the field. Summon Negation in particular is massively a Positive Feedback mechanic. If Konami had more clearly defined all 'easy' monster removal as destroying in some form (e.g, cards which easily RFG would all destroy then RFG like Bottomless, cards that return to Deck destroy then return to Deck, ect, ect.) then bosses could be given reasonable self-protection.

* If the format is made into a limited format, include more +1 advantage cards: Currently you can't give players easy ways to increase hand size because they can keep drawing into cards to loop this, and do stupid explosive combos. These are rare, and at least far more creative in a limited format. With more cards to play with, a player gets more choices presented (usually including more viable choices). This shows a difference in skill far more clearly than when there are few cards in play and most options are painfully obvious ones that any player with a basic grasp of the rules could do.

* No alt win conditions. Hopefully this is obvious - Exodia/Countdown is terrible design. Stuff like Leo isn't that bad, but it's not good for the game either.

* General better card design: More interactive things. More cards that give players a choice (either player will do!) where all options are somewhat viable. E-Con is an example card with two playable effects that are great.

* Better control of the Extra Deck: Generic monsters should be 100% utility. They should be failsafes to remove un-fun situations and to prevent unwinnable situations. Things like returning your RFG'd cards back to the Deck, if your Deck theme relies on certain card(s), punishing cards for being on the field too long (stall), and probably some Volcanic-Queen type card which would allow you to get around lockdowns and such. One or two nice beater cards that can serve as a 'boss monster' to Decks with a solid engine but nothing to go into are okay, but they should generally be inferior to any non-generic bosses so that archtypes at least Summon their own boss most often.

[Canopy Star - Eon Sphere]

I'm liking this idea of LP increases; 10,000 would moot a lot of OTKs, and even unbalanced duels (Wind-Ups vs some just-for-fun decks) wouldn't be over in 5 turns.

I would like it if they made 2 Tribute monsters more worthwhile to summon, or even just effect monsters over level 6. It seems that many decks rely waaaaaaay too much on the Extra Deck. I think they need to rethink that.

Also, any card that affects both sides of the field (Dark Hole, Heavy Storm, etc) should have a clause saying that you need to control one of the type of card that would be destroyed/removed to activate it, so that it's not just mindless destruction.

[Sleepy]

There is an issue with just making the starting life higher.
It means that power creep will most likely keep advancing until it gets back to the same relative point.
Which will in turn, make the earlier cards get outclassed more.
If they increased the starting life once, they can just do it again when it's needed.

It'd be nightmarish if the game ever got to the point where ridiculous amounts where given to cards (10,000 ATK non-Tribute monsters and 100,000 Life, or something huge among those lines)


iirc, ignoring the lack of effects at the time, the "volume" series of Yugioh had monsters with no more than 1000 ATK as Tribute-free. Megasonic Eye would have been like a Summoned Skull to them. It's really come a long way.


As a one time thing, greater Life Points would be good actually.



There is also another option. Have Battle Damage from direct attacks be halved by law. Though I'm not entirely sure how much of a difference that would make to the losing side.

[.Rai]

I consider YGO to be at a relative speed to MtG if it weren't for OTKs. In which case, a power of 3 in MtG roughly translates to 2100 ATK in YGO. With 20 life in MtG, that translates exactly to 14,000 Life Points.

Griffin was pretty much right.

[Sleepy]

[quote name='.Rai' timestamp='1349041056' post='6035308']
I consider YGO to be at a relative speed to MtG if it weren't for OTKs. In which case, a power of 3 in MtG roughly translates to 2100 ATK in YGO. With 20 life in MtG, that translates exactly to 14,000 Life Points.

Griffin was pretty much right.
[/quote]

Speaking of that.
Around how much is the average that a MtG game lasts?
I'd assume all competitive Decks have ways to increase mana very quickly? =0

[DL]

[quote name='Sleepy' timestamp='1349040576' post='6035304']
There is an issue with just making the starting life higher.
It means that power creep will most likely keep advancing until it gets back to the same relative point.
Which will in turn, make the earlier cards get outclassed more.
If they increased the starting life once, they can just do it again when it's needed.

[b]I hear ya. In fact, higher LP, thinkin about it, might just result in a case of "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" [/b]

It'd be nightmarish if the game ever got to the point where ridiculous amounts where given to cards (10,000 ATK non-Tribute monsters and 100,000 Life, or something huge among those lines)

[b]I kind of want to see this happen, just for lolz. But I don't think they'll ever go much past 2500 atk monsters with no tributes and stuff (special summon effects not taken into account)[/b]

iirc, ignoring the lack of effects at the time, the "volume" series of Yugioh had monsters with no more than 1000 ATK as Tribute-free. Megasonic Eye would have been like a Summoned Skull to them. It's really come a long way.

[b]Volume series? As in, the beginning of the manga? Too bad you didn't have to use tributes back then either. (I loved the times when the main thing of the game was to pit weak monsters against each other, in either 2000 defense walls or 1700-1800 atk fighters, then when one of them survived and you got lucky, you'd sacrifice them to summon a 2000something attack monster and be considered uber.)[/b]

As a one time thing, greater Life Points would be good actually.



There is also another option. Have Battle Damage from direct attacks be halved by law. Though I'm not entirely sure how much of a difference that would make to the losing side.
[/quote]
That last thing....I REALLY like that, actually.

Of course that would make Amethyst Cat do a total of 300 damage by attacking directly with its effect.

And it would make Submarineroid have 400 atk.

But oh well.

It's still, a good idea to prevent OTKs

[Sleepy]

[quote name='Darklink401' timestamp='1349059881' post='6035447']
That last thing....I REALLY like that, actually.

Of course that would make Amethyst Cat do a total of 300 damage by attacking directly with its effect.

And it would make Submarineroid have 400 atk.

But oh well.

It's still, a good idea to prevent OTKs
[/quote]

Booster 1 (example)
[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Booster.1"]http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Booster.1[/url]

and Direct Attackers by effect would probably become an exception, for the sake of giving them some appeal. It's not like direct attacking without an empty field has ever been close to OTKing. ^^"
Outside of Raging Flame Sprite back in the day over a relatively long setup, or casual annoyance with Inaba White Rabbit, I don't think there was a problem with those.

EDIT:
Found the actual Volume 1 this time:
[url="http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Volume_1"]http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Volume_1[/url]

Nothing in that pack even goes beyond 1000 ATK.

[STVB]

[quote name='kingdom Neos' timestamp='1348959374' post='6034811']
I would of thought as a idea for the inital lp to start at 10,000 rather than 8,000 so OTK get that less pulled off.

Plus the Extra deck should be at 20 and the Side to 10.
[/quote]

i agree

[quote name='Azuh' timestamp='1348965393' post='6034882']
Rituals should be in the Extra Deck
[/quote]

i agree

missed timing should be done away with because i am butthurt over it (even though it only affects my frognarchs deck), just ban gilfer or woodland sprite

id say we also add a new type of card to the game, similar to MTG's planeswalkers

[Strider Tigerwolf]

I actually have some contributions that directly affect the current yugioh format, and I'm sure several of you all know due to the Tournaments I've been posting up lately.

Sleepy, in several cases you were absolutely right. A MAX of 2 card copies actually DOES "current" yugioh a good backlash as it does the following:

Aid old formats while preventing power creep from new ones. It actually offers a check of balance because that third copy of a card can be quite game changing.

The following however, I've seen and have tested myself lately with a few friends both in DN and outside of DN:

Allowing 1 Limited Card ONLY in both the Main Deck/Extra Deck/Side Deck:

This allows power to the Decks, but in a limited fashion. Now Limited Staples are put into question for their effectiveness in Decks and makes players more considerate towards other substitutes, for example do I go BLS for it's sheer power? Or do I go for Chaos Sorcerer for it's flexibility with Xyzs?

Allowing both copies of 1 Semi-Limited Card ONLY in both the Main Deck/Extra Deck/Side Deck.

With this, I actually found Trap Hole to be a considerate card. Normal Summons became more "safe" though battle and destruction still affect them, but not being able to get Bottomlesses because you run Torrential, or Warnings make certain old fashion cards more "reliable" as substitues for cards we can fit in. Another example was substituting Needle Ceiling for Torrential Tribute. This also makes you be weary of your Deck.

Allowing only 3 copies of 1 Unlimited Card ONLY in both the Main Deck/Extra Deck/Side Deck.

Big key changer. This rules allows me to play 3 copies of Blue-Eyes, 3 copies of Shine Ball, 3 copies of this and that...but ONLY that 1 card. It's a countermeasure that allows for card such as Mokey Mokey King and Blue-Eyes Ulti Drag to be played.

These format rules I found to be the only things actually needed. The "Summon Sickness" for Extra Deck monsters when Summoned is also another in those lines as it makes Extra Deck monsters slower and prevents several of the OTKs and FTKs that require them.

Another "side effect" I've concluded from this is that ALT win conditions died off severely due to not being able to run all pieces of Exodia, having less true protective equipment (Countdown) or are done in a different manner (Venom Win). It's really quite something.