Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 This is not me actually saying that Exodia isn't a bullcrap combination of cards based (mostly) on luck, but these are the reasons why Exodia decks do not work consistently, and why all its pieces are still around to date. I have used a few different Exodia decks in my life, since I ended up getting all of the pieces in Dark Beginnings years ago and have always found it an interesting thing, considering it was an alternate win condition. Anyways, here goes nothing. First and foremost, the reason Exodia isn't broken is because it requires five specific, limited cards in your hand to win the duel. Most OTKs only require 3 cards to pull off, 4 maximum, and most of the time they are composed of searchable or otherwise unlimited cards. You also don't -need- these cards in your hand to win by your deck's means. You can use every other card in your deck to achieve your goals of victory. Compared to that, Exodia is an obscure, highly situational combo. Another thing that relates to the above is that all of the pieces of Exodia are completely useless on their own. You can still win a game using components from an OTK without performing the OTK. You can sit the entire duel with four pieces in your hand, but it doesn't make a bit of difference. Without that fifth piece, you simply can't win. And unless you play something like Dark Factory of Mass Production, setting any of the pieces or using them in any way will simply kill your chances of winning with your deck. Which brings me to the next point: If your opponent is running anything hindering or that discards cards from your hand, you automatically lose. Unless you're playing FTK exodia, Royal Decree, Dark Simorgh, Jinzo, Morphing Jar, Dragged Down, Card Destruction, and possibly Gustkraken/Spirit Reaper/Moulin Glacia, Quasar, Naturia Beast, Barkion, Shien, or burn makes you lose. Plus a massive number of more obscure cards that cause a player to discard. Droll and Lock Bird and Effect Veiler kill FTK Exodia right out, whilst some variants die to even the common Rai-Oh. Finally, and probably one of the most importants parts of the argument for Exodia, is that it becomes more and more difficult to hold hands, creating more inconsistency as time goes on. With the exception of Chain Draw, your hands get clogged with cards that can't be used together, and even the advantage of a card that draws massive numbers like Hope for Escape can become much less useful. Once you have that massive hand, what are you going to do? Waboku and Threatening Roar clog together, creating a situation where your opponent can now drop their Heavy or MSTs and you lose out on cards. You can't afford to start going negative in an Exodia deck. Stall cards essentially mean a +0 in card advantage for you because you live a turn to draw, but stall Exodia.loses to Heavy Storm and MST. The Vanilla/DARK variants are simply too inconsistent and can sit an entire duel without getting their combo off once, which even when it does go off, you might end up drawing into a spell and breaking the cycle, leaving yourself wide open for attack. Chain Draw can suffer from dead hands just as bad, though being able to drop their entire hand every turn and chain to any Heavy Storm or MST does help. FTK can win, but it is not consistent by any means. They play a lot of dead cards, and if they never see Librarian (or in the case of dragons, the dragons that they need) then it's going to be nothing but a one-sided slaughter. At the end of the day, though, the Exodia pieces rear their head as useless cards. Having up to four cards you HAVE to keep in your hand hurts when you're drawing so much and trying to play conservative, waiting until you can explode and get your win off Exodia. Once you're on the ropes, you're likely to lose. You never actually want to draw an Exodia piece during your Draw Phase, because that means you'll have to rely on what is already in your hand for your turn, and you more than likely dropped everything you could your last turn. Plus, despite what everyone says, it does take (if not small small amount of) skill to properly run an Exodia deck (besides stall). You have to know when to activate your cards, when to set them, when to [i]over[/i]set, and you have to know what cards synergize in your deck, as well as what your particular deck is weak to and side accordingly. Anyone can play an Exodia deck, but to actually win as consistently as it is possible (and it's still left up to luck in the end because not enough +1's and above exist for them) you need to know how to play the deck properly. Exodia decks also take a lot of flack for not allowing player interaction and making you lose before you feel like you've done anything worthwhile. Well, plenty of decks have this same, unfair mechanic to them. Watt decks sit behind Messenger of Peace all day laughing and gaining massive +'s they use to eventually win the game with. Wind-Ups drop 2 cards and make it impossible to come back. Gadget decks generate so many +'s and get rid of so many of your cards in the process that you feel like you haven't accomplished anything the entire duel, except maybe a bit of damage. Hope for Escape Exodia does have the advantage of having your opponent gain the illusion of "coming close to victory". As you let them deal damage to you, and pay down to massively low number of Life Points (even as low as 50), your opponent thinks "Cool, I just need one good hit and I win!". Plus, as noted, there are ways that one can take advantage of your opponent's bad hands and counter them with side cards or MSTs to gain an advantage, and if your opponent gets nothing good whatsoever, you get to satisfyingly decimate them and feel like a better person. While the behavior of other decks does not excuse Exodia for its own problems, the blame is falling unfairly upon one deck over another just because people like to play one more than the other. Everyone can agree that broken cards shouldn't exist, but you shouldn't tolerate one while damning the other. Perhaps not everyone is on this hypocritical side, but the point remains that just as much injustice is doled out by other decks, of which nothing is being done about as of yet. Once these newer cards get their rightful placement, then we can reflect on that which has always been. In the end, who is the real A-hole? The one who is quietly setting up for victory and playing ultra-conservative, or the guy who pulls off a broken combination of cards to decimate your Life Points before you had a chance to use your own broken combination of cards that decimate your opponent's Life Points? Slower decks can't stand up in this format, even Anti-Meta, despite its name, amounting to nothing when compared to the top tier. They also have a bad case of losing advantage over time. Once they're losing, they can't really come back very well. Anyways, there are other reasons than the above, but they don't come to my mind right now. You'll just have to think for yourself beyond that. Anyways, discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-so-Radiant Arin Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 No one is saying Exodia is broken. Because it's not. But it's f***ing retarded. And because of all the decks that exploit that, it just makes it f***ing retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuh Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 Oooh boy aren't you going to get a bashing... The point is that people want interaction in their game, and not, DRAW DRAW DRAW OBLITERATE, or DRAW DRAW DRAW f***, scoop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
宇佐見 蓮子@C94 Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351302475' post='6054640'] Blah blah blah blah blah blah [/quote] Like DA said, Exodia isn't broken. It's just stupid and bad for the game. It reduces player to player interaction and just overall kills the game. Exodia was never, and never will be, liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted October 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 Okay, so I should add another 2 paragraphs on why it's okay in the game? Like I said at the very start, I'm not saying it's not BS, but these are reasons why it's not, compared to the old and tired reasons why it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Zero Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 Those last two paragraphs make me think you don't know what interaction is. (or I've been going through life thinking it was something else) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveofSteves Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351302475' post='6054640'] when to [i]over[/i]set[/quote] I see you have no understanding of what the addition of "over" as a prefix means. It is never a good idea to set more cards than you should set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted October 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='SteveofSteves' timestamp='1351303955' post='6054656'] I see you have no understanding of what the addition of "over" as a prefix means. It is never a good idea to set more cards than you should set. [/quote] I know exactly what I'm talking about. MST is a card that exists, and sometimes you have to set more cards than you ordinarily would to avoid that end-phase MST from wrecking you. @Legend: Please elaborate as to what I said that was wrong. I addressed card plays that gain advantage over players or counter their strategy, and how players feel as they are playing against each other, so there isn't too much more to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-so-Radiant Arin Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351304121' post='6054657'] I know exactly what I'm talking about. MST is a card that exists, and sometimes you have to set more cards than you ordinarily would to avoid that end-phase MST from wrecking you. [/quote] It still doesn't matter if they hit your combo piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveofSteves Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 In using the term "overset" you imply that you are setting more cards than you should. This is simply a case where it is optimal to set more cards. You are no longer "overset"ting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted October 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='SteveofSteves' timestamp='1351304241' post='6054659'] In using the term "overset" you imply that you are setting more cards than you should. This is simply a case where it is optimal to set more cards. You are no longer "overset"ting [/quote] You are setting more cards than you [i]normally[/i] would want to. There's no need to argue semantics here. @I don't know because I can't read other languages: The point there was that you set cards that don't need to be combo'd to, or setting a card that can be hit as bait instead of your combo. The eventual drop of your important cards can't be avoided without the proper counter card in your deck, but yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 Exodia decks treat you like a prostitute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A._Sakuyamon Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1351304488' post='6054662'] Exodia decks treat you like a prostitute. [/quote] And that's what make them fun for me, their opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted October 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1351304488' post='6054662'] Exodia decks treat you like a prostitute. [/quote] They give you money after every game? Sounds good to me. Or do you mean they report you to the police and get you arrested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='slayer_supreme' timestamp='1351304810' post='6054664'] They give you money after every game? Sounds good to me. Or do you mean they report you to the police and get you arrested? [/quote]Sorry. Sex slave is the better term. It's cause they'll play with themselves for a while. Use your hickory and take their dickory and dock you all over the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted October 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='Agro' timestamp='1351304990' post='6054667'] Sorry. Sex slave is the better term. It's cause they'll play with themselves for a while. Use your hickory and take their dickory and dock you all over the face. [/quote] Sounds more like Dark Worlds. They slap you around a little bit and play with your cards, building up until they bring out their swollen Archetype member, Grapha. Then they pound you in the face until they're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byak Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 itt gay fantasies I don't want solitaire alternate win conditions to be a thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhat Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 Exodia's not overpowered, but it's not fun to play against either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 With regards to the OP- Exodia.dek is still incredibly boring to face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted October 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 [quote name='Armadilloz' timestamp='1351310631' post='6054717'] With regards to the OP- Exodia.dek is still incredibly boring to face. [/quote] I think one of the most amazing matches I saw with Exodia was at worlds where the anti-meta players was perfectly countering the draws for Hope for Escape using his Solemn cards on his own card, and taking out cards with end-phase MST. Plus the sided decrees eventually reared their head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expelsword Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 I see Agro's a fan of the red light district... Exodia decks require zero skill and reduce the game to a movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizarus Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 Exodia is broken, for the same reason anything with the potential to FTK is broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildflame Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 I'm ok with alt. win conditions as long as they don't become extremely competitive. And that will probably never happen. Sure, Exodia is dead boring to play against, but the majority of meta decks aren't any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 This has less player interaction than solitaire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Rai Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 Who's the real A-hole? The one playing Exodia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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