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(Banned)wagoning

byak

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Blake Newbie

Blake

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Gem-knight citrine/fusion? I know with no lavalval or that one card its slower but they still OTK well.

Also. Giant Trainer? Destiny Leo? Venominaga? How do you feel about those?

No Rabbit or chain means they don't really do anything, and Citrine's not even remotely problematic in the first place.

 

You could still hit Fusion to be safe, but it's the same as with Gishkis, but even harsher: Do you kill the deck completely in the name of it not being an OTK deck, or do you find other ways (Gust/Augus/Tetrogre/Gigas or Armadillo/Obsidian/Lazuli/Etc.) to hit it instead?

 

I don't see what's wrong with any of your cards listed, personally, but this isn't my format. I just don't get how Giantrainer needs a hit, Destiny Leo's anything other than an alt win that kills alt win, and how Vennominaga isn't balanced into being a legitimately ALTERNATE win condition .~.

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CommanderVolt Newbie

CommanderVolt

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I mentioned those cards not withbthe intent to get them banned. But to see what byaks and everyone's thoughts were. I thought the would warrant questioning. Giant Trainer draw power, leos win condition is still an alt win condition (not that I suggest its needing to go) and naga's near immunity to everything with potential crippling power.

Again I'm not suggesting they be banned as I'm not sure how easy it'd be to make the rk 8s in this format and the difficulty it takes to get naga out. So I wanted to bring it up for speculation for byak and others like you

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Canadian Newbie

Canadian

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> 3 Tsukuyomi, 3 Mask of Darkness, 3 Book of Moon, 3 Drop Off, 3 Drastic Drop Off.

 

I think this might be an issue.

 

Also, decks possibly to look further into:

 

- Scraps

- Nordic Beasts?

- Burning Knucklers (Leadblow)

 

EDIT:

 

[spoiler=Scraps]Z0kC2Ca.png[/spoiler]

 

Again, nobody to test with etc...

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Sunshine Jesse Newbie

Sunshine Jesse

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I'm of the opinion that banned lists should be minimalist rather than trying to make sweeping changes, so I won't gripe about some of these being excessive on the virtue of just having a different opinion. I do think this is a good list overall though, but...

 

// Banned //
Lava Golem
Spore
Volcanic Queen
 
Fabled Ragin
Superdreadnought Rail Cannon Gustav Max
 
M.X-Saber Invoker
Number 33: Chronomaly Machu Mech


Super Rejuvenation
 
Imperial Iron Wall
Secret Barrel
W Nebula Meteorite

Few gripes with these.

 

I don't know why the listed cards are banned. I can understand why they might be an issue, but I don't think that these are a big enough issue to warrant banning on anything other than (in my opinion, arbitrary) principle. I want to see the logic behind them, if someone would oblige.

 

I don't know why Hyperion, Grandsoil, E-Dragons, Burei, or Miracle Fusion are limited instead of banned. Particularly the E-Dragons, I think those are degenerate at any number other than 0, and unlike Hyperion or Burei, you can't make an argument for any deck "requiring" them to function to the best of my knowledge (which is another line of logic I strongly disagree with, but I don't know if that's your own.)

 

I don't know why any of the semi'd cards are semi-limited over unlimited or limited, given I disagree with just limiting use over outright preventing it. This doesn't apply to the ones that can interact with themselves like Diva, which should be limited instead, if you ask me.

 

I get why searchers are limited, I just disagree with the logic behind it, so I won't debate that here.

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Agro Newbie

Agro

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Well, I'm not byak, but I'll try to see if I can argue for his choices.

 

Few gripes with these.

 
I don't know why the listed cards are banned. I can understand why they might be an issue, but I don't think that these are a big enough issue to warrant banning on anything other than (in my opinion, arbitrary) principle. I want to see the logic behind them, if someone would oblige.

He's banning them based on principle... sooooooo. Well, there's that.

 

 I don't know why Hyperion, Grandsoil, E-Dragons, Burei, or Miracle Fusion are limited instead of banned. Particularly the E-Dragons, I think those are degenerate at any number other than 0, and unlike Hyperion or Burei, you can't make an argument for any deck "requiring" them to function to the best of my knowledge (which is another line of logic I strongly disagree with, but I don't know if that's your own.)

Eliminating consistency. None of those cards are game-changers if topdecked @1 except in late-late games. Especially considering how slow the format is. The E-Dragons literally don't do any of the things that make them degenerate @1. They support their respective attributes with one card that can put a Level 7 on the field every turn at the cost of graveyard-loss and -1 effects each. There's only one of them in a deck unless you're dumb.

 

I don't know why any of the semi'd cards are semi-limited over unlimited or limited, given I disagree with just limiting use over outright preventing it. This doesn't apply to the ones that can interact with themselves like Diva, which should be limited instead, if you ask me.

 

Semi-limiting does 2 things:

1. stops a card that does too much @3 from doing too much

2. Decreases the consistency of getting a card in the hand.

 

Of those semi-limited cards, the only ones I would suggest against would be Tenki and Dandylion, which I think should be @1.

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byak Newbie

byak

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I'm of the opinion that banned lists should be minimalist rather than trying to make sweeping changes, so I won't gripe about some of these being excessive on the virtue of just having a different opinion. I do think this is a good list overall though, but...

 

Few gripes with these.

 

I don't know why the listed cards are banned. I can understand why they might be an issue, but I don't think that these are a big enough issue to warrant banning on anything other than (in my opinion, arbitrary) principle. I want to see the logic behind them, if someone would oblige.

 

I don't know why Hyperion, Grandsoil, E-Dragons, Burei, or Miracle Fusion are limited instead of banned. Particularly the E-Dragons, I think those are degenerate at any number other than 0, and unlike Hyperion or Burei, you can't make an argument for any deck "requiring" them to function to the best of my knowledge (which is another line of logic I strongly disagree with, but I don't know if that's your own.)

 

I don't know why any of the semi'd cards are semi-limited over unlimited or limited, given I disagree with just limiting use over outright preventing it. This doesn't apply to the ones that can interact with themselves like Diva, which should be limited instead, if you ask me.

 

I get why searchers are limited, I just disagree with the logic behind it, so I won't debate that here.

 

Lava Golem and Volcanic Queen can get rid of any monster without the other player having a say in it. They also promote burn strategies which aren't very fun to play against.

 

Spore seems like too good of a card in a slower format, since it can turn just about any level 3 into a field nuke and just about any level 4 into a multitude of things. Sure you have to dedicate your deck to it, but it's still a relatively easy +1.

 

Fabled Ragin rewards you for overextending by giving you more card advantage. I stated in the OP that I want card advantage harder to gain. In addition to that, Fableds are relatively untouched in this format, and are extremely fast compared to other decks that can thrive. 

 

Gustav is a pseudo Dark Strike Fighter. It isn't fun to play with against at all.

 

M.X-Saber Invoker I'm personally iffy on, but I just feel like it translates into too many cards that can end up being problematic and if they didn't exist, Invoker would essentially be useless anyway.

 

Machu Mech literally only exists for OTKs.

 

Super Rejuvenation doesn't seem like a healthy card to leave alone. It's really easy to break and get card advantage just by throwing away your hand or just by drawing more cards.

 

Imperial Iron Wall manipulates game mechanics to the point where it creates OTKs and weird loops.

 

Secret Barrel is banned for the sake of burn not being a thing. Burn isn't a healthy deck to have at such a strong level and this is one of the more potent Chain Burn cards.

 

W Nebula Meteorite does too much for an archetype and is poorly designed.

 

I can agree with your points with the limited cards, except Bureido, though I'm not 100% on that. Limiting it prevents spam, and it's hard to combo Bureido into another good synchro without investing too much card advantage, though Geargia might be capable of that, which in that case, it might be too much for this format. All of those cards output too much damage for this format and they're probably better off not existing to begin with.

 

As for the semi limited section, I can understand your point, but semi limiting cards also creates another effect. It changes the standard probability of opening a card (without additional consistency cards) from 39.5% to 28.1%. In actual practice Shard of Greed was simply too good of a card to open with, so I wanted to lower the chances of having it turn 1. Hanzo and Dragonfly haven't been tested yet, but while they don't deserve to be limited yet, it doesn't feel healthy to have them at three either. Also, Dandylion and Lonefire would create decent engines to work with, and it'd be less abusive, since Debris and Spore are hindered here. I do agree that Diva should be limited though.

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-Doodle Newbie

-Doodle

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I ended up banning Aquamirror and Gem-Knight Fusion. I'm also strongly considering Treeborn.

 

What are your thoughts on Starlight Road? I personally think it has no reason to exist in this format.

I strongly agree, especcialy because the s\t destruction in this format is very limited and 'set 5 go' is not something I think is good for the game :\

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byak Newbie

byak

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Byak, thoughts on nordics in this format? I feel they might warrant looking at. I forget if hamster is in the list and they have vanadis glepnir and goat engine. Odin seems really good in a slower format b ut idk how you think about them for this.


I mean, it's a deck that rewards you for playing passively, which I view as a good thing. They might be too strong depending on stuff that I'd have to test.

Also I forgot about Coelacanth
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byak Newbie

byak

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What's your opinion of Allure of Darkness? I always felt it kinda added unfair amounts of speed to some stuff.


Maybe, I don't really think it's a big problem though

I limited Crane Crane and banned KM Doom for the Gallis otk thing
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Master of Sabers Newbie

Master of Sabers

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*winces at list*

 

I know this is a good list, and it would be really fun to play under. However, I kinda flinch when I see so many of my decks get slaughtered. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes it's fun to play oddball decks with alt win conditions against the stupid top tier decks. There's something I enjoy about beating a $1000 dollar deck (mermails, prophecy) with a $50-$100 dollar deck.... Hm. Maybe I just don't like change, and the game would certainly change.

 

I concede that you have done a seemingly thorough job at hitting degenerate cards. *winces again*

 

Have  you considered Acid Golem of Destruction / Bahamut Shark shenanigans? All it takes is 2 level 4 water monsters and a creature swap / mystic box, and you win.

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byak Newbie

byak

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The thing is, neither the oddball decks or stupid top tier decks really deserve to exist in the first place. The purpose of this format is to allow creativity to thrive in a much slower environment.

 

I wouldn't call swapping Acid Golem a win condition. While it's really silly, Book and Fiendish have been pretty common so far, along with Monarchs. However, I guess Acid Golem could be looked at.

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byak Newbie

byak

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Banned Sombres and Kerykeion because they do too much for a single card.

Limited Collapserpent and Wyburstar because they're probably the most powerful floaters right now as a result of testing.

I want to look to Lightsworns and Lightrays now. Even without JD the deck can turbo and support other boss monsters that can be problematic. Thoughts?

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