Frostosaurus

[Zextra]

The strongest old-school single-Tribute vanilla in terms of ATK.

Discuss.

[newhat]

I think I won a game once by stealing Shi En with Puppet Plant and Tributing it to this.

 

For that purpose I'd rather run Cyber Dragon, and for straight-up ATK there are better options than this. Lance puts it at 1800, 150 less than Trope and 100 less than Sabersaurus, so it doesn't anti-Meta very well.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Anyone else think at this point 5+ vanillas can afford to be much stronger (and also not Dragon)?

[Mutant Monster RAEG-HAPYP]

Anyone else think at this point 5+ vanillas can afford to be much stronger (and also not Dragon)?

Many 5+ or higher vanillas with high ATK aren't even Dragon though. But, if you meant you DON'T want new, stronger vanillas to be Dragon(or referring to the fact BEWD is still the strongest vanilla), then I see your point.

And I woudn't mind that tbh.

[Sleepy]

Anyone else think at this point 5+ vanillas can afford to be much stronger (and also not Dragon)?

I think they could, but shouldn't. What standards do you have in mind?

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Many 5+ or higher vanillas with high ATK aren't even Dragon though. But, if you meant you DON'T want new, stronger vanillas to be Dragon(or referring to the fact BEWD is still the strongest vanilla), then I see your point.

And I woudn't mind that tbh.

Yeah, I meant that if they made them then they shouldn't be Dragon. Really, there's no reason for you to run a vanilla in a deck unless it's level 4 or lower, it's a dragon, or you're using Advanced Ritual Art. The downside of not having any effect whatsoever and not being readily summonable by said effect makes vanillas too weak to compete, and at least if there were one with let's say 2800 ATK it could be something of an actual threat rather than beating out most but not all maindeck bosses by a measly 100 when their effects could also get rid of him or generate advantage in some way (and they also summoned themselves for basically free)..

 

Trust me when I say that I was unhappy when they started to boost the level 4 ATK up higher, and I really didn't want to see a day when vanillas can be ungodly big, but it really seems like that's the only way to make them relevant.

[Sleepy]

I still think that's not the only thing to do. I'd rather see something that could support already existing vanillas just like it's been happening lately (although very slowly)

Before Rescue Rabbit + Evolzars + Chidori, there was no reason to use Level 4s whatsoever.

Before Hyeratics, there was no longer a reason to run Dragon vanillas.

Then we have vanillas good for name: Archfiend Marmot back when Rescue Cat, Shine Ball in Agents.

Happy Lover in Perfect Herald, and ARA targets

 

I think it's better if they just increase the reasons to run the already existing ones. If only they did it more often.

We have a Solemn Judgment with no cost @3 for vanillas, Faustian Bargain for Special Summon hate, and other little gems that are not relevant because the support is nowhere near enough to make a vanilla deck yet.

 

Increasing ATK is just asking for powercreep to eventually catch up with them again. We want stats not at 1/2 LP here.

Even the current stats are high for the amount of Life the game provides.

[newhat]

The problem I've seen with vanillas is that the plusses from battle they attract with their naturally high ATK  (versus a 1/1 through Forbidden Lance) is canceled out by their lack of effects. Drawing into Rescue Rabbit, Tour Guide or Rai-Oh is generally more useful than drawing into any vanilla. Except in Verz, where the most commonly used monsters don't interact with the opponent at all.

 

Normal Monsters are like Plants: building blocks for other things.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

I don't want to see vanillas only used because they can be used for something like an XYZ or because they can be used by another card to do stuff. They have to be viable at least in some way by themselves or due to direct support (like Justibreak and not Rescue Rabbit), as unlikely as it sounds to happen.

[Toffee.]

Anyone else think at this point 5+ vanillas can afford to be much stronger (and also not Dragon)?

But they have the issue of becoming too much of a threat.
Yea, a 2800ATK 1-Tribute Normal monster would be cool as hell, but lets take a second look at that; It's tied with something like Scrap Dragon/Darkness Metal, and basically lets it run over damn near anything.
Also it can't be a Sea Serpent, Zombie, Insect, or Plant.
I mean, if we don't want it to be searchable and just come off as wonky.

[Sleepy]

But they have the issue of becoming too much of a threat.
Yea, a 2800ATK 1-Tribute Normal monster would be cool as hell, but lets take a second look at that; It's tied with something like Scrap Dragon/Darkness Metal, and basically lets it run over damn near anything.
Also it can't be a Sea Serpent, Zombie, Insect, or Plant.
I mean, if we don't want it to be searchable and just come off as wonky.

Or Dragons.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

What benefit would they gain from being Plant, Zombie, or anything like that that a great number of effect monsters don't already give? If it's plant with 2800, I guess it might be used over Tytannial for the same purpose of its ATK and that you could actually use it for a synchro, but zombies have Endless Decay, who for the most part would outclass it, and I don't see how Sea-Serpent would do anything really.

[newhat]

If Despair from the Dark had 0 DEF, Zombies would have a bunch of new OTKs.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

If Despair from the Dark had 0 DEF, Zombies would have a bunch of new OTKs.

If you can get two Endless Decay on the field, it's always an OTK, no matter how many Life Points they have (unless it ends in an odd amount). They can also automatically summon themselves if you have low enough points yourself, which ended up winning me quite a few games alongside Hope for Escape.

[Wildflame]

Semi-legit tech in Illusionnarchs to make Soldda.

[Toffee.]

What benefit would they gain from being Plant, Zombie, or anything like that that a great number of effect monsters don't already give?

Plants have Lonefire/Gigaplant.
Insects also have Gigaplant, but they also have Danipon(Assuming this thing has low DEF) and Pinch Hopper.
Zombies generally have low DEF, so Pyramid Turtle shenanigans AND Mezuki.
Sea Serpents have the incredibly-easy-to-set-off Dragoons.
Dragons have everything under the sun.
etc
You get the idea.

Although, Thunder would seem like a safe type for this
(at least, at first glance)

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Plants have Lonefire/Gigaplant.
Insects also have Gigaplant, but they also have Danipon(Assuming this thing has low DEF) and Pinch Hopper.
Zombies generally have low DEF, so Pyramid Turtle shenanigans AND Mezuki.
Sea Serpents have the incredibly-easy-to-set-off Dragoons.
Dragons have everything under the sun.
etc
You get the idea.

Although, Thunder would seem like a safe type for this
(at least, at first glance)

Lonefire isn't that big of a deal like I said before. If we're talking something like 3200 ATK, then it's a big deal, but both Lonefire and Gigaplant summoning a 2800 beatstick isn't a huge deal. You would be replacing Tytannial's okay effect for a card that's easier to normal summon, and that's it.

 

Danipon doesn't help because you just added a vanilla to your hand who you would then need to tribute for, which doesn't seem too likely considering you just had your set monster destroyed in battle. Pinch Hopper summons from the hand. Even then, it's not that huge of a deal to me. It's dead in all other situations, and it's not like you're gaining advantage.

 

I already explained the part about Zombies, though to be fair there aren't many high-powered Zombies with good effects.

[Agro]

[quote name="Zextra" post="6192206" timestamp="1367475687"][center]The strongest old-school single-Tribute vanilla in terms of ATK.[/center] [center]Discuss.[/center] [center][/center][/quote]Can be used for Rank 6 Xyz including Solda. That's all there is to discuss, really.

[evilfusion]

The biggest issue with Vanilla support making them viable is that Vanilla support relies on Vanilla monsters. Justibreak is like a better Mirror Force, but only if they're attacking a Normal Monster. Mirror Force doesn't have that restriction, therefore making Mirror Force better, because it doesn't rely on anything else to work. Justibreak doesn't make Normal Monsters good, Normal Monsters make Justibreak work.

 

So most Vanilla support's issue is that on their own, they don't do anything. If you draw Justibreak while topdecking, it's a dead draw. If you draw Mirror Force while topdecking, it's useful. If you draw Justibreak while you have no Normal Monsters, it's a dead draw. If your Normal Monsters are destroyed outside of being attacked, Justibreak is neutralized. Mirror Force is still useful if you have no Normal Monsters, or no monsters at all.

 

It could be argued Mirror Force is just too powerful, but the fact of the matter still remains that without the vanillas themselves to support the Vanilla Support's activation conditions, those cards are all potentially dead draws, and they won't have any effects of their own to spring on the opponent or dissuade them from attacking, or destroy other cards the way Effect Monsters can.

 

The best Vanilla support is the cards like Ancient Rules and Summoner's Art, but only in Decks that can consistently capitalize on that through searchability, like Blue-Eyes.

[-Berserker-]

I use it in Snatchnarchs for Solda. Yet I have considered Dark Driceratops instead, except for the "running over the 2.5K bosses" thing.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

To be honest, in my post I only mentioned Justibreak because I couldn't think of a card that I meant at the time.  Faustian Bargain would be -closer-, and I guess something like Anti-Spellcasting Area is more in the league.