Maeriberii Haan Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 As it has been said for time to time, SDB's ban is hustified, since the deck that utilize it pretty much abuse the tournament's rule, and generally, it's a pain to face it, due to multiple draws until the timeout phase, elongates the match for 30 or more minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Some cards on this list were clearly made because tournament scenes don't want them around. People who take Final Countdown or Self-Destruct Button to tournaments are usually trolling, and can ruin a skilled player's ranking purely because they managed to stall out. Those sort of shenanigans shouldn't be encouraged. The banlist isn't a law, though. You just can't take those cards to tournaments. Troll your friends all you want. And Countdown is still a Deck, you just need more luck to get Countdown early enough. Which makes it even less likely to emerge on a tournament scene. Cards like Sword of Seven Stars being hit is clearly just not taking any chances with Rulers. They survived the intended purge last list. This time, Konami's smashing everything that even appears to support Dragon Rulers to an unhealthy degree. Again, while I agree that Tenki is a questionable unlimit, considering D-Rulers is why Fire Fist couldn't do much last format, and less a matter of Tenki's Semi weakening them too much. It's not that Countdown and SDB are "boring" in the same way that Fire Fists' alleged auto-pilot is (I dont know the Deck enough to know whether them being auto-pilot is true or not), it's that those Decks are focused on aggravating players by refusing to interact with them in a normal way. Stalling = win is a horrible mindset for any game, and Button is just a troll card that screws with tournament format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Some cards on this list were clearly made because tournament scenes don't want them around. People who take Final Countdown or Self-Destruct Button to tournaments are usually trolling, and can ruin a skilled player's ranking purely because they managed to stall out. Those sort of shenanigans shouldn't be encouraged.So, you also take issue with rogue decks? They're the same principle in that they easily ruin a skilled players ranking because they're not prepared for it. Final Countdown is no different from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 So, you also take issue with rogue decks? They're the same principle in that they easily ruin a skilled players ranking because they're not prepared for it. Final Countdown is no different from that. Rogue decks are fun. Countdown isn't. Button isn't. Therein is your difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Maybe not to you. But it is to other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted December 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Maybe not to you. But it is to other people. Like I said, the difference is player to player interaction and the ability to outplay. The skill becomes a non-factor with Final Countdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Maybe not to you. But it is to other people. You would profess Countdown as being fun? In a serious competitive context? For the game as a whole? The stupid, banal gag of "durr durr im runnin countdown" is just that, and its glory, or lack thereof, is short-lived. Countdown should die, that should be obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted December 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 You would profess Countdown as being fun? In a serious competitive context? For the game as a whole? The stupid, banal gag of "durr durr im runnin countdown" is just that, and its glory, or lack thereof, is short-lived. Countdown should die, that should be obvious. You can't logically discuss "fun" for the game as a whole. That's an irrational concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 You would profess Countdown as being fun? In a serious competitive context? For the game as a whole? The stupid, banal gag of "durr durr im runnin countdown" is just that, and its glory, or lack thereof, is short-lived. Countdown should die, that should be obvious. His point still stands. Fun is entirely subjective. And you can't change that. It might not have been a good thing for the game, but that doesn't mean people didn't find it fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 His point still stands. Fun is entirely subjective. And you can't change that. It might not have been a good thing for the game, but that doesn't mean people didn't find it fun. Fine, certain individuals find it fun for a small lapse of time. It still deserves list attention for being degenerate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 I dont think people actually find Countdown fun, I think they just like being the center of attention, however negative it may be, and countdown decks are one of the most successful and cheapest decks that can do that for them. Honestly I don't see how anyone has fun with the actual Troll Decks, just the reaction they achieve with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Then it's pretty much Dragon Plants, not rulers. Is the rulers do something in it? Not really. Draccosack though, so still Rulers. xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Here's the problem with the argument "Some people find it fun". A couple years back, I enjoyed running Countdown and similar against friends, because winning that way was the punchline to a joke. Their aggravation was the buildup to said punchline. However, once people get annoyed enough, or bored enough, to stop wanting to play against that Deck, the fun starts to go away. Sort of like the joke that's been overused until no one finds it funny anymore, and the only reason the joke ever gets retold is because someone will inevitably shout it out again to try to get a laugh. Wow, that's one hell of an analogy I went off on. Uh...must salvage point. Right, so my enjoyment of using the Deck boiled down to annoying my opponent, and even if they broke my stalling, I could get the last laugh with SDB. And cherish their even greater frustration. Even if they won, they get no satisfaction because the game was never a battle of wits. There was no outplaying of each other, or close matchup. It was just flinging cards on the table. Now let's look at forum trolls. They get their fun from annoying or confusing people, or otherwise tormenting people to savor their reactions. It's the lowest form of internet entertainment, but some people love it, but the victims and often some of the people who just want to be on the forum for whatever meaningful purpose they came there for will quickly grow weary of this, or worse. Final Countdown is very similar to being a forum troll. It's fun to you, maybe funny to a few others, but it ruins people's days not because they feel they were outplayed or that they were caught off-guard, but because their opponent brought everything to a screeching halt just so they can get off on being a dick. Some Decks can get that type of reaction because they're degenerate Decks that sap fun from the game by being so much better than other Decks. But that's the issue of power creep and casual vs competitive players. Decks like Countdown and Exodia EXIST to do nothing more than be a colossal pain or be a game of solitaire that has another person observing you from the other end of the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Here's the problem with the argument "Some people find it fun". A couple years back, I enjoyed running Countdown and similar against friends, because winning that way was the punchline to a joke. Their aggravation was the buildup to said punchline. However, once people get annoyed enough, or bored enough, to stop wanting to play against that Deck, the fun starts to go away. Sort of like the joke that's been overused until no one finds it funny anymore, and the only reason the joke ever gets retold is because someone will inevitably shout it out again to try to get a laugh. Wow, that's one hell of an analogy I went off on. Uh...must salvage point. Right, so my enjoyment of using the Deck boiled down to annoying my opponent, and even if they broke my stalling, I could get the last laugh with SDB. And cherish their even greater frustration. Even if they won, they get no satisfaction because the game was never a battle of wits. There was no outplaying of each other, or close matchup. It was just flinging cards on the table. Now let's look at forum trolls. They get their fun from annoying or confusing people, or otherwise tormenting people to savor their reactions. It's the lowest form of internet entertainment, but some people love it, but the victims and often some of the people who just want to be on the forum for whatever meaningful purpose they came there for will quickly grow weary of this, or worse. Final Countdown is very similar to being a forum troll. It's fun to you, maybe funny to a few others, but it ruins people's days not because they feel they were outplayed or that they were caught off-guard, but because their opponent brought everything to a screeching halt just so they can get off on being a dick. Fair enough. But Yugioh has been flinging cards on tables for the last year and a half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 I added a bit more to my post knowing that comment would come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 I added a bit more to my post knowing that comment would come up. Once again. "nothing more than be a colossal pain or be a game of solitaire that has another person observing you from the other end of the table" Is still Yugioh at times. Oh wait, Dragon Rulers got hit. xD No, this does still happen at times. I had no issues with SDB, it took some time (usually) before it happened, and tied duels. Stopped the power happy decks....ok this is a troll card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 The elaboration was not about the phrase "flinging cards on the table", it was that Decks that do massive plays is a power creep issue and often is an argument regarding casual and competitive players in contexts where the two playerbases must mingle without knowing for sure what side the other falls on. Like DN. The solitaire comment was thinking about Exodia. Where the whole point is "drawdrawdraw, stall, win". Final Countdown is "Get Countdown. Stall. Stall. Stall some more. Stall some MORE. 20 turns later...win!" Yeah, Spellbooks and their 20 minute turns, and Dragon Rulers with their absurd number of stuff isn't necessarily fun, it isn't really a part of what makes Countdown and SDB so problematic compared to other Decks and styles. Those who find it fun are playing to win (competitive players). People who play Countdown and other stall based Decks are usually playing to be a jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Has there ever actually been a fun alternate win condition in YGO? I know there's been several in M:TG because Wizards bothers to design them well. But it's like, every time anyone talks about Countdown, Exodia, Empty Jar, etc., the person's always a troll. At least Jar's a combo strategy that comes about from several interesting rulings and weird card synergy, even if it is an annoying thing to lose to. People in other games like the prospect of alternate win conditions from the norm, though, so I don't see why Konami couldn't bother to design a good one for once, except perhaps due to the fact that the game's design itself wants to avoid it at all costs... Back on topic, I really friggin' like this banlist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Has there ever actually been a fun alternate win condition in YGO? Vennominaga the Deity of Poisonous Snakes Number 88 (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted December 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 The issue is that you have two decks: one playing normally, the other playing an alternate win condition. The first deck is designed to beat reduce the opponents life points to 0 before the opponent. The second is designed to succeed in its alternate win condition while preventing the opponent reducing your life points to 0. One is specifically designed to counter the other. It's really hard for the interaction to be positive in this case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 So, where does it say anywhere that yugioh is a game of skill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted December 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 So, where does it say anywhere that yugioh is a game of skill? Would you argue that Konami doesn't actively want to promote skill in tournament settings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Vennominaga the Deity of Poisonous Snakes Number 88 (lol) You forgot everyone's favorite, Destiny Board. The issue is that you have two decks: one playing normally, the other playing an alternate win condition. The first deck is designed to beat reduce the opponents life points to 0 before the opponent. The second is designed to succeed in its alternate win condition while preventing the opponent reducing your life points to 0. One is specifically designed to counter the other. It's really hard for the interaction to be positive in this case The issue is that alternate win cons have to play, in most cases, against the normal structure of the game, which everyone seems to have a gripe about. It's a problem in this game where you have a million and a half ways to stall combat, protect your board state/options, and so on, so that you can preserve that point. I watched Countdown Tags back in the day when DMG was a big thing, and holy balls was Swift Scarecrow a ridiculous card to have to put up with. The deck didn't really play cards, it was just playing hand traps. I guess that's an argument in favor of it being degenerate, but that makes it more Konami's fault for not mitigating stall into their formula in the first place. Some people actually do like playing defensively because it helps them have a chance to think things through/have options. Idk. EDIT: YES THANK YOU CHRIS OH MY GOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 So, where does it say anywhere that yugioh is a game of skill? Psh, no where. The only skill is in video games that are single player. Derp derp derp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Would you argue that Konami doesn't actively want to promote skill in tournament settings?Would you argue honestly that they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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