evilfusion Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 In regards to win conditions, that's because of how the game functions. The methods of winning are: -LP to 0 (most common, and the obviously intended method) -Deck to 0. Most mill effects don't do enough milling, and those that do tend to be too powerful, or just extremely difficult to pull off. Cards like Morphing Jar and Needle Worm do the most, but even other mill strategies tend to be stall focused, or punish a player for doing normal actions (Gravekeeper's Servant mills 1 whenever they want to attack) -Exodia. The whole point of Exodia is to stall until you get the 5 cards in your hand. -Destiny Board. The whole point is to stall and pray they don't destroy a piece. It clogs up your S/T zone, it's absurdly easy to stop, and can't be sped up. -Final Countdown. Stall. Stall a lot. Do nothing else, because the only way to stop you is for them to win. -Exodius. You have to run Exodia pieces, and Exodius needs to attack 5 times. Even with combos to speed this up, it's fickle. - Vennominaga. Absurdly hard to get out. Requires a ton of dedication, and you're WAY more likely to win the Duel by battle due to its effects than by getting 3 Hyper Venom Counters. -No.88. Needs 3 Level 8s to Summon it. Needs to essentially survive for 3 turns, you must have no S/Ts, and doing anything whatsoever to negate its effect, remove it from the Field, affect its Overlays, etc will screw over the win condition. So yeah...either the alt wins are WAY too much effort and dedication to pull off, or it involves stalling like hell. The lack of the mana resources and similar that Magic uses means most of the costs and conditions to using it has to be extremely high or risky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Yeah, combo and strategy ends up getting a lot more potential in M:TG due to the extended card pool for larger, casual formats, and there's legitimate fun in attempting to pull off your win con. Here it's just...bleh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted December 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Would you argue honestly that they do? They host tons of tournaments, worlds, offer prizes, post coverage, have banlists. I see a lot of proof they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Yeah, combo and strategy ends up getting a lot more potential in M:TG due to the extended card pool for larger, casual formats, and there's legitimate fun in attempting to pull off your win con. Here it's just...bleh. It's all overrated, everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 They host tons of tournaments, worlds, offer prizes, post coverage, have banlists. I see a lot of proof they do. Well, y'know, except for the part where Rulers were around for what everyone felt to be far too long. If Konami cared about skill, they would see their own flawed card design from a mile away and fix the serious problems like other TCGs tend to. EDIT: Two things: 1) @Welche: I also forgot to mention Brionac. That's my current citation for the "Konami doesn't care about skill" argument. 2) @TGM: It's very overrated, which is a shame. =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Can someone honestly tell me a CARD GAME that takes SKILL? I didn't think so. Ok, Poker. And maybe Go Fish. Topic-------->Out Window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 They should have seen that Rulers were going to be a problem. We are genuinely at a loss as to how that slipped by to that extent. But the following packs after LTGY were more balanced and they clearly were aware of it in retrospect and took steps to correct it. Rulers surpassed most people's expectations with how good they were. Even when the TCG ripped away their chibi forms and Card Destruction and Super Rejuvenation, they weren't fazed enough. The fact they even tried fixing it to the extent they did last list was testament enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Thank god they actually have been balancing things out a bit more and making reasonable support. At least, for the most part. Because I really don't want to have a banlist that goes through the Brio era again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Can someone honestly tell me a CARD GAME that takes SKILL? I didn't think so.Ok, Poker. And maybe Go Fish. Topic-------->Out Window.Could you give any reasoned argument that Magic: The Gathering doesn't take skill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Could you give any reasoned argument that Magic: The Gathering doesn't take skill? Only if interactivity wasn't literally the point of the game in competitive formats. Safe to say I don't feel that way about this game, especially when Konami beats around the bush about turn-around cards like they did a couple formats before they fixed the problem. Even now it's still kind of an issue with Gorz and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Only if interactivity wasn't literally the point of the game in competitive formats.Safe to say I don't feel that way about this game, especially when Konami beats around the bush about turn-around cards like they did a couple formats before they fixed the problem. Even now it's still kind of an issue with Gorz and whatnot.Gonna point out that even at its least interactive MTG takes a lot of skill. Anyone who's played enough Legacy knows about Belcher and how it just flat out refuses to interact with you and can try to win as early as turn one, and also knows that it takes a huge amount of skill to pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Gonna point out that even at its least interactive MTG takes a lot of skill. Anyone who's played enough Legacy knows about Belcher and how it just flat out refuses to interact with you and can try to win as early as turn one, and also knows that it takes a huge amount of skill to pilot. If MTG wasn't interactive in some way, no matter how small, it wouldn't be MTG. It'd be solitaire. S'why they had to ban Eggs. :v But yeah, in terms of this game, and how Konami makes bans, they're trying to say they're appreciating their competitive audience, but I'm still not feeling it quite yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 If MTG wasn't interactive in some way, no matter how small, it wouldn't be MTG. It'd be solitaire. S'why they had to ban Eggs. :vBut yeah, in terms of this game, and how Konami makes bans, they're trying to say they're appreciating their competitive audience, but I'm still not feeling it quite yet.That's not why they banned eggs. It was banned due to time constraints and overall power level in the Modern format. There are even still iterations of the deck. Also Eggs actually took a lot of "skill" in terms of memory to pilot.Their bans tend to imply they care about their competitive players and what the majority seem to want even if for the wrong reason. The problem then remains in the card design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 That's not why they banned eggs. It was banned due to time constraints and overall power level in the Modern format. There are even still iterations of the deck. Also Eggs actually took a lot of "skill" in terms of memory to pilot. Their bans tend to imply they care about their competitive players and what the majority seem to want even if for the wrong reason. The problem then remains in the card design. Taking to time usually implies a game of solitaire, which is funny because they did have to remember their combo or else they had to scoop, because they passed priority. Konami and card design have never been friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hounds Of Anubis Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Konami and card design have never been friends.What? Did you never play before the 5Ds era? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 What? Did you never play before the 5Ds era? I did, actually. Those formats were really not that great, either, even if they were a lot less accelerated or degenerate. Mostly because Konami's incredibly indecisive as to whether or not to keep a card where it is on the list ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 *Sits on the ground looking up at all the people on long-legged horses* So yeah, if we could all get back on topic instead of arguing over our faith in Konami's care for us, that'd be great. Wonder how Chaos Decks will do this format? They have never really relied on Return, and 6th Sense was just a commodity. Seeing as that is really their only two cards that were hit, and Sorc back to 2, I am interested to see how they match up with the obvious likely meta - Bujins, Noble Knights, Fire Fists, and Mermails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Well, if people really want to be upset about TGU and Kristya both being at 3, then there's always Chaos Agents. I'm building my own list atm with 1 BLS/2 Sorc/2 Kristya/3 TGU/1 Assailant alongside the Agents staples to see how it'll go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeriberii Haan Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Chaos might be a rogue deck. I don't think they can survive a grind-heavy metagame, but they can overwhelm the opponent quite fast before that, but not consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose Posted December 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Well, if people really want to be upset about TGU and Kristya both being at 3, then there's always Chaos Agents. I'm building my own list atm with 1 BLS/2 Sorc/2 Kristya/3 TGU/1 Assailant alongside the Agents staples to see how it'll go. With 2 Kristya how are you helping people be upset about it going to 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawkobo Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 With 2 Kristya how are you helping people be upset about it going to 3? Because it going 3 is a testament to Konami saying it's not that big a deal, which is true and why it should still be played at no more than 2. It's really the 3 TGU that I'm capitalizing on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Crouton Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 M7 was hit at some point? I like how Konami waits 3 or so months to hit the bad apples, while Wizards of the Coast quickly banned Bottle of Wishes in Kaijudo before the major tournaments because players (both the ones playing it, and the opponents) complained about it, and for the fact it promoted luck over skill, something that the Kaijudo staff doesn't want to encourage. At the "fun" stuff, getting my play stopped by a trap card is unfun. Let's ban all traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleOnceCalledGod Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Overall, I'd say this is going to be a more fun format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 At the "fun" stuff, getting my play stopped by a trap card is unfun. Let's ban all traps. Overall, I'd say this is going to be a more fun format. Yes to both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean of Deans Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Dragon Ravine - I feel bad for the Dragunity players who got caught in the crossfire, but good riddance nonetheless. Return from the Different Dimension - I don't like this card very much, and it's kinda sacky when it's used. Good ban is good. Self-Destruct Button - Okaaaay... Sixth Sense - Yeah, not sure why having it at 1 was ever a good idea... Dragon Rulers - Good riddance. I hope the deck is dead now. Debris Dragon - A good hit, considering Plants are getting some more support in the future. Magician of Faith - It should be interesting to see what this does to the meta. Divine Wind of the Mist Valley - I'm not very well aware of the FTK this card pulls but I'll take the masses' word for it. Final Countdown - Okaaaay... Sacred Sword of the Seven Stars - A little unnecessary with all the Dragon Rulers limited, but hey, I'll take it. Spellbook of Fate - Meh. I never really did like Spellbooks. I don't think this will do much though. Chaos Sorceror - Meh, that's fine. Lonefire Blossom - I'm interested to see what this does for Plants. Sylvans aren't too far off, we'll have to see what it does... Archlord Kristya - Do people run more than 2 anyways? Mezuki - The zombies really are arising from the dead at this point... Plaguespreader Zombie - See above statement. T.G. Striker - To think this card was once limited...crazy. Tour Guide From the Underworld - Makes Fortune Tune a little more irritating, but...eh. Constellar Ptolemy M7 - Who? Fire Formation - Tenki - The only one change I particularly dislike. Like Constellars and Bujins needed more support... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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